Problems of a moneyless society, Human Will, Individual Interests and Motivation

reply to post by jenk1013


I'd say one of the more difficult things that stands in the way of the venus project is the acquisition of land. Unless one discovers a new island, any state that it's near to will claim sovereignty over it.

Would such a state allow the venus project to flourish ? Let's say some land is discovered off the coast of USA ( unlikely, but for arguments sake ) : would they allow the construction of a new society with new regulation and visions, independant of american rule ? Would the USA allow that ?

And let's not forget the UN that, by principle in it's charter, can impose itself on any other state : whatever the 192 member states say goes, and i'm not even going to bother mentioning the five permanent security coucil members who would oppose such a idea.

Ah well

Peace !



[edit on 28/6/2010 by Unium]

Here's your motivation to do something: to be nice. How about we just all help each other instead of trying to lord over one another because we have this car or that house or this watch?

How would it be if we liked what we liked because we chose it of our own volition, simply because we like it? You know what? If I had my choice, I would have an old Citroen from a bazillion years ago that was modified to run under the steam of my own two legs - a modified bicycle. I would live in a hobbit house or a house cut from under a hill or in a cave with a cool door built in somehow. I would have a natural spring nearby where I could take my water. I would forage and store foods and medicinal plants for use by those in my surroundings, because I know about such things.

I know that all things have only the value I myself give them. I can't wear watches, so what good would it do me to acquire a Rolex? But I love old Citroen Amazons so it would be fun to "drive" that on a rainy day and maybe carry a passenger or two. It would be a laugh at least! I wouldn't want a huge mansion just to be bigger and better than others. How is it better? How is this maniacal obsesssion with hording goods in any way healthy for any of us? You only need what you need when you need it. Medical care when it's needed. No hassles, no fuss, no forms to fill out. Just a doctor who loves being a doctor and does it wholeheartedly. Same goes for all who need anything. Furniture? No problem. Herbs? Right here. Fabric? Plenty over this way. Eggs? Milk? Cheese? Tea? Why would the supply chain have to stop? There's no reason it should! We would just all be free to take up our enterprises without having to worry about capital and justifying our cashflow to the tax authorities.

All that peace and freedom - and all we have to do is be NICE!

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!

reply to post by CosmicEgg


No it is not so hard to understand. I never understood our money obssessed soceity.

reply to post by dreamseeker


Money is the most worthless of the worthless things in our societies. The most important - all the inhabitants of Earth and Earth herself - are the least valued.

In this country, Finland, when I start my foot care business, if I don't charge enough, the tax authority will still make me prepay my taxes monthly at their approved rate. Just how uncool is that?! This country absolutely sucks in so many ways...

One of the reasons I moved here after marrying a Finn was because the society here took such good care of the citizens' well-being. When you were sick, you could get medical care immediately. When you grew old, the nursing homes were nice and clean and there was sufficient staff. There was paid time off when you were sick and loads of paid time off when you had a baby. All the social benefits were in place and the tax was more or less the same as in the US. But over time, the tax authority has gained control over our lives in untold ways. Same with the "medical" authority. Now you can't get care in any way so you're forced to pay taxes as though you *did* get service but since you don't get it, you're forced to pay for private care. It's all that much worse if you're a business person.

Should anyone care to do some research about things here, you will see that we still get these things. Many of them are now being repaid (unemployment, student benefits and the like) because these authorities decide that you are not somehow entitled to them. The authorities make arbitrary rulings on the status of your relationship with roommates, family members, etc. For example, if a brother and sister go to university in the same town and choose to share an apartment to cut costs (and not have to worry about bizarre quirks in the roommate), they are ruled as being common law spouses. Ew on so many levels. But that's the law. There are lots of other things just as sick and twisted here.

I bring these things up not to cast aspersions on Finland but to show you how badly things have gone purely as a result of greed and a little (very precious little) wealth. They started importing American tv shows here en mass in the 90s and it's gone to the dogs since. I would give a lot for the return of those good old days when people at least bothered to take care of one another. If the family couldn't, the society most definitely did. That's as it should be.

Well the sad thing is, we have degressed in our society from which our founders gave us. We have given the one thing that our founders hestitated from putting into the economy a status in which it was never supposed to be given, and that is the "grease" (in which they termed it) that was only supposed to keep the wheel spinning. Today's term called money.. However we delluded it further by makeing actual paper based then to numbers on a screen ~

Luckily however, since it has turned into nothing more then pixels on a screen, Money has finally became nearly worthless in society other then a depression tool. The more it keeps declining in this age, the more closer we can finally get to a resource society.. Which in turn would be a bane in makeing us finally a type 1 civilization, rather then this barbaric type 2 that we sit and remain..

Does money give status? No, It did back in more barbaric days, however nowadays its mainly who actually cares?... And its more rightfully so to be this way. It means more people are actaully focused on themselves rather then what others had.. Though SUre you could sit there now and state that status is a motivator which then ties into money .. But nothing is more motivateing then personal advancement, with out haveing the need to focus on someone or something else that is not tangible. Worse yet, currently the people that are supposedly motivated into this capitalism society are the ones helping destroying it, rather then helping into it. By Cutting expanses, Demanding more and finding cheaper routes on products.

We not only waste resources by the tons now, The Products that we do use are cut down to be the cheapest thing possible. So we are not even makeing things of good quality that would be used over and over again... WE are just adding more and more to the pollution and problems of this planet. All for an ideal of competition. Which in reality is not even there anymore lol. Walmart is a pure example of this.. there is no customer service, no quality products.. its all foriegn and there is no real economy gain of that chain other then trying to keep a leg there for the poor sector. But it remains one of the largest companies we have.

Fact is we are not as barbaric as we tended to be in the write up our founders made in accessing the economy system to take.. I realy Think they where hoping that money would have been actually just elminated along with a centeral goverment over time as we actually should have. But we forced ourselves back ~

Its time to move on finally to a real system, instead of fooling around with this delapitated one.

reply to post by Unium


To begin with, there is only this, a natural world without money, the artificial one is an insert that corrupt controllers forced upon us. Its not real, I denounce it, and see only the natural.
I give the other no power or solidity by acknowledging it.

When you live in a collective system things become controlled by groups of those with powers, and our concepts of motivation, (ie, economic reward and inequality being the carrot, is a negative motivation. If it works better than a positive one who cares, I'd rather we were all in the forrest, living like natives did for thousands of years then, because inequality and slavery cannot be the way to make excellence shine its light!), and also you have hit upon the concept of law.

I do not allow any laws over my head, no one has that right, not individually or collectively. Now that being said, I believe in hurting no one either and naturally follow logical rules, which means I dont go out of my way to break laws either, but don't go out of my way to follow them. I just live and am civilized.

But tradiditonally, many are entrenched in this.

Imagine a different system and how advanced, the system would be if we were living it for some time.

The Venus Project is one that I endorse, but not as it is, for as it is its almost like an elitist rule system, with someone else calling the shots. The Hopi elders have said, do not look for leaders, for you are the one you have been waiting for.

So the reality is, we need to have a grass roots Venus Project, run by us, the people. We cannot accept leaders in any way shape or form, therefore, all local governemnt and larger circles of leadership, or judges etc, any councils, need to be US, ie, we all take turns, jury style, and do our turn, and we are very educated people. Also, if someone is messing up significantly and others don't like it, they can be kicked and wait 10 years before another turn.

Naturally there has to be common sense and way of colletively agreeing while at the same time, if someone cant agree, then like in the native way, they would take off and carve their own way, or join another group. However, that being said, there would be a kind of natural cause and effect so a person stealing more than their share of resources, or harming others, sexually abuse for example, might find themselves being hunted. So we oureselves need education.

The system only works with large input from the people, wiht all natural areas, ie, lakes, and water to be enjoyed collectively, kept as communal resources and no private ownership would be possible. Eco villages and farms would need to be made in beautiful areas, not FUNCTION over Form, but FORM AND FUNCTION EQUALLY important or the woman will kick butt! And I mean it. This is about people.

This system works just fine, if it starts with technology like todays world, unlike the past, then what we are looking at is, everyone being afforded homes and land, with no expectation to work. Volunteering would accoutn for all services, education, health cares, teaching, and we would share hours. Crafts, music, art, design, even scientific explorations and development of new clean technology would be accomplished in shared larger guilds with full tools and machinery required, so that no one could be excluded from learning, training, and access. No one can be excluded or forced.

All things encouraged. The same expectations of children, from childhood on taught, to think in terms of what they wanted to be when they grew up, to explore different jobs from aggriculture to science, to arts, to space age, they would be trying on hats in their formative years and being trained and retrained throughout their lives.

For the pregnant women and mothers of young children, collectively they would have a team to keep things up at home, and have full access to teh local food, and goods, for it takes a village to raise a child, and every adult would be an uncle aunt to everyone, with workshops and fun for the children.

Volunteering goes a long ways, and we would set the system to be one of service to others, part time work weeks, and lots lots of time with family. The eldery and handicapped would all be a part of the communities and share as they could but take as they need.

The most important factor for this to work, is lack of controlling others, no demands they conform, they work at things they don't wish to, but encouragemetn to try different things. Education that now takes 12 years, like medical in Canada, would be more reduced to a few years and lay doctors, practical, hands on, working in teams with the others, everything passed on.

No patents, or copyrights, all information given to everyone, and taught in school. Religion and spirituality more akin to personal meditation and not institutions that demand allegiance or money.

Big projects that people in the area think up, ie. deslaination, teleportation a global villlage, solar panels in space, ie. anything, would not be limited to funds but only limited by the volunteers to achieve it.

People would sign up and back out if they hated it, but we would all be prospered.

I also see from childhood on, meditation groups and psi/telepathy/remote viewing being taught to all people and children, and communing with nature.

Its all about doing things with others, and education and teaching children in school to try on new careers, hobbies, new technologies, to always think, what am I going to do? What am I here for and how can I help?

And ensure everyone takes turns so theres lots of time for family, ie. work no more than 4 hour shifts, 3-4 days a week.

I'm sorry that I won't be able to put my thoughts into eloquent words but here goes.
Before we had banks, before currency, Humans operated on a resource based system. Bartering. I need something from you you need something from me, we can come to an agreement and fair exchange is made. It can happen again, society didn't just spring up from nothing with ATM's on every corner. I never understood the concept of money either.

I have always seen most jobs as menial, mindless tasks that only serve to keep you tied to the system, sucking on the proverbial teet. Paper pushers in a literal sense, in what way does that actually mean anything? To me real jobs are production. Farmers, craftsmen (carpenters, electricians etc), then of course safety/need firemen, police, emt, nurse dr. But people who move paper from one side of their desk to another, whose job is nothing more than a string of meeting upon meeting... has no real world application. We need to get away from that.

I guess my point is, if you get rid of menial tasks and actually challenge someone, you might be surprised at the results. If we are no longer getting paid, money is no longer our prime motivator, if we are task/goal motivated... we might actually get somewhere.

This is coming from someone who is rather simple. I tried college... to many fillers, too menial. Military got it for me. Tech School, I knew the goal and what my job was going to be, I was highly motivated to do it. I did it again with a trade school, no filler, just an end result in sight and it was easy. Apply this rationale to how people would act without money.

I would highly recommend people reading this read my signaturer as a month or so back I authored a post advocating a Resource Based Economy. I linked a lot of interesting videos as well as answered many common questions. Feel free to U2U me for more info.