What do you religious people mean by this?

While reading another thread it dawned on me that I don't understand the meaning of some very common expressions used by religious people.

Would someone explain them to me?

"accept Him as your God"
What does this mean? If a woman accepts me as her husband, and I accept her as my wife, we are agreeing to a certain type of relationship. But what is the nature of the relationship intended by "accepting Him as your God?" Not "accepting that there is a God" or "accepting that this particular being is God." But rather, accepting Him as your God. What does that mean?

"believe in Him"
Again...what does this mean? Is it simply a matter of believing He exists? As in..."I believe in unicorns?" Or does it mean belief that He is something? For example, as in the expression "I believe in free market trade." Someone who says that isn't saying that they believe free trade exists, rather...they're saying that they believe it's a good way to do things. What does it mean to believe in God?

"worship"
I think I understand prayer. It's basically deliberate communication via a "telepathic" means or possibly via superimposition. I.e: God knows what you're thinking because God is you.

But what exactly is worship? When you "worship God" what is it you're doing? Are you telling Him he's wonderful and you like Him? If you tell you girlfriend you love her, or your friend that he's wonderful...are you engaging in worship? Or is it some sort of telepathic energy transfer as a feeding process? Or something else? What does it mean to worship God? What are you doing when you worship God?

Thank you.

Accepting him is allowing him to come inside you and do the things he promises, such as, filling you up with his full measure so you can experience his joy and love. Everyone will experience this when they die, but why wait when this can be disclosed now. Another thing he does by accepting him is to write his laws on our hearts and teach us, by bringing things we have experienced in the past back into our remembrance, so we better understand through a wisdom not of our own but his. He also shows us what is yet to come in the future. The reason he does this is two-fold. 1. He declares the ending from the beginning, so we know he is God. And 2. Some of the things we have to go through here on earth are really bad, sometimes more than we bear. It's not so much that it softens the blow in anyway, but more like it confirms the truth about everything else and all the wonderful things yet to come.

We believe because we know. God never changes so what he has done before he will do again. Sometimes he does new things but the Bible is a wonderful resource of people who have had some incredible experiences and they are meant for all not just a select few. When a person really looks for him, they will find him. It's just a matter of putting an effort into it. We all learn to ride a bike and to tie our shoes. Finding God should be no different.

We worship because we love. The first and greatest commandment is to love him with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. God is Spirit and his ways are spiritual ways. As he reveals himself to the individual it becomes very personal. He prefers things to be done in secret and as this relationship grows it blooms into something so unlike anything else you've ever experienced, that keeping the first commandment is easy. The ecstasy he provides noone else can. Though it's only a downpayment of that which is still to come we follow like sheep following their shepherd because he has won our hearts, soul and mind.

He just wants to be loved, acknowledged and included in our lives - just like any good parent. Everything is about love.




[edit on 26-5-2010 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


I'm going to respond to paragraphs two and three first, because it's simpler to do so:

We believe because we know.

Ok. But that doesn't answer the question. The question was: "What does it mean to believe in God?" not "Why do you believe in God?"

Generally, if you tell someone that you "believe" in them, it's to convey encouragment. If somebody is scared to do something, someone might say "I believe in you" to give them courage. But I assume this is not what people mean when they say the believe in God.

What does it mean to "believe in Him?"

We worship because we love.

Again, you're giving me a reason rather than telling me what it means. What is worship?. What are you doing when you worship? I'm not asking why you do it, or how it makes you feel...I'm asking what it is you're doing.

--------------

Accepting him is allowing him to come inside
you and do the things he promises,

Do what things? Again...if I agree to marry a woman, I think I understand the nature of that relationship. What is this relationship and what is God doing that I'm accepting that he's doing to me?

such as, filling you up with his full measure
so you can experience his joy and love.

...ok. From your phrasing I gather that this is a single example, and not meant to be all-inclusive. But, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that one thing He does when we "accept Him" is fill us with feelings of love and joy. But that's not quite right. More like...and I'm really trying to understand you here...the idea seems to be that there is some sort of separation between God and Self...and by "accepting" God, you're allowing Him to bridge that separation and "fill you" and it's a natural consequence of this reunion that one would feel joy and love, rather than the feelings being the purpose of the filling.

Is that what you mean?

Another thing he does by accepting him
is to write his laws on our hearts

You appear to be speaking in metaphor. What do you mean by "write his laws on our heart?" My best guess is that you mean "Change us so that our desires are in accordance with His expectations."

Is that what you intended?



[edit on 26-5-2010 by LordBucket]

Originally posted by LordBucket

Would someone explain them to me?

"accept Him as your God"
What does this mean? If a woman accepts me as her husband, and I accept her as my wife, we are agreeing to a certain type of relationship.

This is a very good analogy. In fact, it's used many times in the Old Testament. It implies a commitment. Being a wife used to imply the promise of obedience, and that commitment and willingness to obey is an important part of what is meant by taking God as "your" God. The "forsaking all others" aspect of marriage is also very relevant. It means paying no attention to competitors.

"believe in Him"
Again...what does this mean? Is it simply a matter of believing He exists?

The essence of "belief" is trust. As the epistle James points out, even devils believe that God exists. But trust? That's a different matter. If you see a rope-bridge over a deep gorge and start walking over it, then you are believing in that bridge, you are putting your trust in it. Trust is about not being afraid.

From a Christian viewpoint, the most important element of "trust" is the belief that the death and resurrection of Christ have achieved something of fundamental imprtance to us. It's not just about believing the teaching is true, but also trusting in what it says about our future and allowing that to remove fear.

Christians also talk about trusting God in aspects of their daily lives- which means, essentially, not being afraid.

"worship"

But what exactly is worship? When you "worship God" what is it you're doing?.

The word "worship" originally means to "honour".
It invloves accepting that the other person has great worth- "worth-ship".
It is still used in secular ways.
A mayor in England might be addressed as "your worship".
You may remember the phrase in the old marriage service- "With my body I thee worship".

Acknowledging that someone has great worth can be done in the mind, it can be done with words, or it can be expressed in symbolic actions like kneeling or self-prostration.

Obviously God does not need to be told that he has great worth, because he knows it already.
The real functions of worship are
a)focussing your own attention on the fact of God's worth, and
b)drawing other people's attention to it.
Public "worship" in churches is doing both at the same time. A group self-focussing.

Obviously acknowledging that God has great worth fits in very well with trusting in him and with being willing to obey him. They all go together.










[edit on 26-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by LordBucket


In the name of Allah (The Lord), the Beneficent, the Merciful,

accept Him as your God

And none is like Him. [Quran : 112:4]. So you cannot compare the earthly relationship of an human with Almightly Lord.

To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing, and nothing is comparable to Him.

The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter ...

In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”. [Quran 112]

and many other verses in Quran follows like this...

He is Allah besides Whom there is no god; the Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Beneficent , the Merciful [ Quran: 59:22]

He is Allah, besides Whom there is no god; the King, the Holy, the Giver of peace, the Granter of security, Guardian over all, the Mighty, the Supreme, the Possessor of every greatness Glory be to Allah from what they setup up (with Him) [Guran 59:23

He is Allah the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner; His are the most excellent names; whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares His glory; and He is the Mighty, the Wise. [Quran 59:24]

Say: He , Allah, is One. Allah is He on Whom all depend.He begets not, nor is He begotten.And none is like Him. [Quran : 112:1 to 4]

How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him [ Quran: 2:28]

“ There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious” (Quran :2:255).

I hope the answer the question " why accept him as a God.."

"believe in Him"

In order to be a Muslim, that is, to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief, later called Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah, is not enough. Many of the idolators knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this. But this was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah, one must add tawhid al-'uluhiyyah. That is, one acknowledges the fact that it is God alone who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.When faith enters a person's heart, it causes certain mental states that result in certain actions. Taken together, these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said:“ Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds”.

A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God.

to be continue...

reply to post by LordBucket

continue.....
Almighty Lord says in Quran...

Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abrahim and Ismail adn Ishaq and Jacob and the tribes, and what was given to Moses and Jesus; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit [ Quran3:84]

Hope the answer the question... Believing in One Almighty God is the Pillar of Islam.

"worship"
To understand why human beings need to worship God, one must first understand what is meant by the term ‘worship.’ The English term ‘worship’ comes from the Old English weorthscipe meaning ‘honor.’ Consequently, worship in the English language is defined as ‘the performance of devotional acts in honor of a deity.’ According to this meaning, man is instructed to show gratitude to God by glorifying Him. In the Quran, God says: “Glorify the praises of your Lord...” (Quran 15:98)

In glorifying God, man chooses to be in harmony with the rest of creation which naturally glorifies its Creator. God addresses this phenomenon in many chapters of the Quran. For example, in the Quran, God states: “The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them glorify Him and there is nothing which does not glorify His praise. However, you do not understand their glorification.” (Quran 17:44)

However, in Arabic, the language of the final revelation, worship is called ‘ibaadah, which is closely related to the noun ‘abd, meaning ‘a slave.’ A slave is one who is expected to do whatever his master wills. Consequently, worship, according to the final revelation, means ‘obedient submission to the will of God.’ This was the essence of the message of all the prophets sent by God to mankind. For example, this understanding of worship was emphatically expressed by Prophet Jesus (the Messiah or Jesus Christ),

“None of those who call me ‘Lord’ will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

It should be noted that ‘will’ in this quote means ‘what God wants human beings to do’ and not ‘what God permits humans to do,’ because nothing happens in creation without the will (permission) of God. The ‘Will of God’ is contained in the divinely revealed laws which the prophets taught their followers. Consequently, obedience to divine law is the foundation of worship. In this sense, glorification also becomes worship when humans choose to obey God’s instructions regarding His glorification.

The Need for Worship
Why do human beings need to worship and glorify God by obeying the divinely revealed laws? Because obedience to divine law is the key to success in this life and the next. The first human beings, Adam and Eve, were created in paradise and later expelled from paradise for disobeying the divine law. The only way for human beings to return to paradise is by obedience to the law. Prophet Jesus, was reported in the Gospel according to Matthew to have made obedience to the divine laws the key to paradise: Now behold, one came and said to him, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So he said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Also Prophet Jesus was reported to have insisted on strict obedience to the commandments, saying “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

It is in this context that Prophet Jesus,(PBUH) John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

....to be continue...

reply to post by LordBucket


continue...

Thus, the only acceptable way to worship God is according to the way of the prophets. That being the case, innovation in religious affairs would be considered by God among the worst of all evils. Prophet Muhammad, was reported to have said,

“The worst of all affairs is innovation in religion, for every religious innovation is a cursed, misleading innovation leading to the hellfire.” (An-Nasa’i)

Hope the answer the question..

While reading another thread it dawned on me that I don't understand the meaning of some very common expressions used by religious people.

"religious people" is a really broad term to use when asking for what "you people mean". There are many religions and not all of them require belief and worship.

edit to add: it is starting to look like the bible threw up on this thread.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by zaiger]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


You're one of the good ones. Thank you for not being one of the close-minded, aggressive, manufactured examples of why people have such an antipathy towards religion (western religions in particular).

Disreali very good. I myself didn't know the meaning behind worship.

I knew it meant honour but didn't know the meaning of the word.


Here's the thing.

Our bodies are temples for grace. Nothing can make a soul understand this but grace of understanding.

Two things can enter.

Grace which is love. God enters the soul through communion.

and evil.

It's where the soul says. Forget God. I want selfishness and nomore fighting to overcome.

And grace ceases in that soul. Not entirely though unless one reaches the point of sociopath, heartless.

which antichrist will be.

So the relationship God means is that he wants to enter our souls. We become like gods.

Full of grace.

It's a communual relationship where we become like God but out of humility recognize where we come from.

That's why the holy ghost goes out and dwells in souls.

How God does this is a mystery but he does.


So we are not saying you're so good God out of pride. Or else God wouldn't of created a virtue called humility.


It's different with a girlfriend because she didn't create us. God did.

peace OP no offense taken.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Being a wife used to imply the promise of obedience, and that commitment and willingness to obey is an important part of what is meant by taking God as "your" God. The "forsaking all others" aspect of marriage is also very relevant. It means paying no attention to competitors.

...so, accepting as "your God" means to agree to obey Him and Him alone, and no other god?

So when you invite someone to accept your God, you're inviting them to enter into a master/servant relationship?

Seriously?

The essence of "belief" is trust.

trusting in what it says about our future

trusting God in aspects of their daily lives

Ok. But, if you've "accepted" God, then you've entered into a master/servant relationship...what exactly is it you're "trusting" him to do? If you're truly obediant, and truly a "good servant" then you're trusting God to do anything he wants to and with you, right?

I'm not asking for or offering a judgement call here. I'm simpy asking if that's really what you're saying.

The real functions of worship are
a)focussing your own attention on the fact of God's worth, and
b)drawing other people's attention to it.
Public "worship" in churches is doing both at the same time. A group self-focussing.

...ok. I think I understand. But I don't understand why this would be a desireable goal. I mean, if we accept the premise of a single, omniscient, omnipotent diety...then isn't the idea of attaching any "valuation" kind of silly? I mean, a dollar bill has a certain value, a certain "worth." But that value exists solely within a certain context. A dollar only has value because we accept that it does and agree to use it in a certain manner. But it seems to me that "God" would exist beyond any context...he would be the context.

If you're going to say "God is great!" "God is important" "God has worth!" I'm not going to disagree with you...but to me it sort of seems to be missing the point. It would be like saying the US Department of the Treasury is rich. Well, yeah...kind of sort of...but it's not that the tresaurey has a lot of money, it's that the treasury prints the money. It's the source of money. To me, saying that "God has worth" seems to be missing the mark in a similar way.

My best guess, then, is that the purpose of worship is not actually "for" God. It's for the benefit it has for the worshipper.

reply to post by Abuaisha

Quran

I was wondering if we would receive a non-christian perspective. But simply quoting the Quran doesn't really answer the questions.

I hope the answer the question " why accept him as a God.."

I never asked why accept him as a God. I asked what it means to accept him as your God.

Different questions.

In order to be a Muslim, that is, to surrender oneself to God,
it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc.

Ok. But I didn't ask how to be a Muslim. I asked what it means to "believe in Him." So are you saying that belieiving in the oneness of God is what is meant by "beleiving in Him?" Or are you saying that believing in the oneness of God makes you a Muslim? Or both?

In order to be a Muslim...it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God

But this belief...is not enough

one must add

acknowledges the fact that it is God alone who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

Are you saying that someone who belive that God is the "only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc" and also acknowledges God as the only one worthy of worship, and abstains from any other worship as you describe...are you saying that anyone who does all this is a Muslim?

Wouldn't that make christians, jews, and the majority of every other monothiest in the world a Muslim?

Or are Allah and Jehovah competing dieties, both vying for the same thing? Or are they different names for the same being?

in Arabic,

worship, according to the final revelation, means ‘obedient submission to the will of God.’

Ok. So then, worship as "obedient submission" would correlate to what Disraeli was suggesting was meant by "accepting and beleiving in Him."

And I see you've used the same word choice of "master" as I did. So then you would generally agree with my interpretation in this post, yes?

Worship/belief/acceptance/etc in God is mostly about being a willing and obedient servant. Right?

Ok. But, if you've "accepted" God, then you've entered into a master/servant relationship...what exactly is it you're "trusting" him to do? If you're truly obediant, and truly a "good servant" then you're trusting God to do anything he wants to and with you, right?

I'm not asking for or offering a judgement call here. I'm simpy asking if that's really what you're saying.

(OP)

LOL I love how the op plays the advocate. Disreal I'll let you respond to your own post but I have to address this.


Yes we trust God to do anything he wants with us in the context of his own teachings. He never said to not test the spirits. Which means we are not drones.

Disreal and you should know this OP unless you're in advocate mode only, was trying to say is that we trust him to take care of us and allow us to handle bad times and good. because he's our father.



peace.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by JesusisTruth]

Originally posted by LordBucket
[
So when you invite someone to accept your God, you're inviting them to enter into a master/servant relationship?

Seriously?

We are, ex hypothesi, talking about the Creator of the world.
If he exists, then by definition, we are not his equals.
Treating him as "master" hardly seems unreasonable, surely?

Ok. But, if you've "accepted" God, then you've entered into a master/servant relationship...what exactly is it you're "trusting" him to do? If you're truly obediant, and truly a "good servant" then you're trusting God to do anything he wants to and with you, right?

I'm not asking for or offering a judgement call here. I'm simpy asking if that's really what you're saying.

Yes, it is.
Again, on the assumption that he is the Creator of the world, being in his total power and not feeling able to trust him would be a complete nightmare, would it not?

And we were also talking about this as a marriage relationship- which, of course, involves love in both directions. How much would you want your wife to be able to trust you?

My best guess, then, is that the purpose of worship is not actually "for" God. It's for the benefit it has for the worshipper.

That's really what I was trying to convey, yes.
Ackowledging the reality of God is the first step towards trusting him (which is beneficial to us) and obeying him (which is beneficial to us), and for that reason it is conducive to our benefit.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by JesusisTruth

I myself didn't know the meaning behind worship.

...have you never worshipped, or have you been "worshipping" for years or all your life without knowing what you were doing?

Or have you simpy been paying lip service to it?

Understanding what something is, what it means...I think that's kind of important. I mean, I've always figued that when people put their hands together in church they're probably doing something more than just putting their hands together.

Personally, I've tended to think of "worship" as a deliberate basking of adoration via telepathy. Though I suppose it wouldn't need to be that way. For example, once might say that worship is a condition that exists in the heart, whether or not there's any deliberate attempt to communicate it. So I suppose one might differentiate between deliberate communicative worship, and passive, non-communicative worship.

But I'm not seeing that interpretation being given by anyone else in this thread.

Our bodies are temples for grace. Nothing can make a soul understand this but grace of understanding.

Perhaps, but saying "you'll never understand unless you become one of us" has never been a very satisfying answer for me.

You do understand, don't you...that it's a bit of a hard sell to tell somebody that they'll receive joy and love and understanding...but only after they agree to become a slave. And in the meantime, you'll never understand, you'll just have to "trust us." Go ahead, give up your free will, be a slave, accept our master, he'll take good care of you.

It may feel good for you, but if I understand your proposition, it's not something the intellect easily embraces. Which is exactly what you're saying.

But...try to understand that if you're truly "submitting" yourself to your master, and if God is truly the powerful being that you claim, then presumably with your permission and submission he has the power to change you to want and experience joy and fulfillment by by fulfilling his desires.

Which I would guess you would agree with, right?

But do you see how being filled with love and joy and fulfillment for the reason that you've been changed to feel love and joy and fulfillment from the act of being used for the purposes of another...

..do you see how some might have a problem with this?

It's different with a girlfriend because she didn't create us. God did.

This is something I've never understood. Why does creation change anything? Why does creation imply ownership? God created you, therefore you should serve and obey him. How that follow?

If you "create" a child, does it follow that the child should serve and obey you as a servant? If scientists in a lab bioengineer a new species, does it follow that that species should serve and obey its creator?

I acknowlegde that the consciousness of others can be used as a tool. But the idea that "creator" is your "God" and should therefore be served...seems a very dangerous idea to me.

A child grows up and becomes their own person. And personally, if I were to bio-engineer a new species for use as labrats, and that species were to look me in the eye and say "No. We are aware. We have consciousness and we refuse to be your plaything" I would feel honored to have participated in the growth of a sovereign entity.


[edit on 26-5-2010 by LordBucket]

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by JesusisTruth

 

I myself didn't know the meaning behind worship.

...have you never worshipped, or have you been "worshipping" for years or all your life without knowing what you were doing?

A slightly unfair interpretation made possible by taking a statement out of context.

I think the meaning was that I had just provided new information about the etymology of the English word. You can understand what you're doing without knowing the full derivation of the word which describes it.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by JesusisTruth

we trust him to take care of us and allow us to
handle bad times and good. because he's our father.

I apologize, but that seems like a really bad reason to me. Being "father" being "creator" does not automatically convey any special knowledge, goodness or awareness.

if you want to you say you trust him because he's omniscient, that makes more sense to me. But "he made us therefore we trust and serve him" seems like a bad idea to me.

we trust God to do anything he wants with us in the context of his own teachings. He never said to not test the spirits. Which means we are not drones.

What context? If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, what context could there possibly be? What do "his teachings" have to do with anything?

Are you saying that if God required something of you as his faithful servant that you believed was incompatible with "his teachings" would you disobey? Doesn't that kind of contradict the idea of being a good and faithful servant? Isn't the whole point that it's not for you to understand, but merely to obey? Why qualify your trust with your own personal, and possible limited understanding of his teachings?

This whole arrangement sounds to me very much like a scientist talking to some bioengineered creature he bred in the lab to test chemicals on. "Trust me. I'll feed you and take care of you. Just do what I want. It might not always be pleasant. You might suffer. But I created your world, and I created you to serve me."

From the perspective of the scientist, that may make sense. And it certainly benefits the scientist for the rats to believe it.

But is it really in the best interest of the rats?

LOL I love how the op plays the advocate.

Try to understand perspectives other than your own. Personally, I lean towards the "God is All" point of view. From there, all of what you're saying is reasonable, logical, plausible...but totally missing the point, and downright dangerous. From the perspective of an athiest, you're brainwashed crazies.

But regardless of the perspectives of others...I'm trying to understand your point of view. Again, a lot of these expressions are so commonly used that it's only recently occured to me that I don't really understand what is meant by them.

I've occassionally been told by christians friends that accepting the holy spirit within is "the only way to know." That intellectual understanding is simply inadequete. And that does not seem completely unreasonable to me. The intellect does not "know" the feeling of joy. It is the heart that experiences it. And the heart knows nothing of logic. So the idea that there may be things the intellect is not equipped to understand seems reasonable to me. Just like my eyes don't know what it's like to hear.

However...I suspect that (generally speaking) the "religious" experience that is spoken of is simply an emotional knowing rather than an intellectual one. And in my experience, while the heart may feel, just because it feels does not mean that it's "right." Just like it is not for the intellect to feel, it is not for the heart to understand.

But a woman who mindlessly insists she loves a man who beats her does not see the whole picture. And a man who heartlessly crushes his opponents without mercy also does not see the whole picture.

I find that it is best for the heart and mind to agree with each other.

Saying "you'll never understand, just trust and be happy" seems like an incomplete teaching to me. Though when viewed from only the heart, it probably makes a lot of sense. And I think I'm starting to understand the perspective that I think you have.

But the idea that you people believe and accept it...so willfully throwing away the half of your being that is intellect...well, it is what it is. It is a functional way to be. But it may have implications that I personally wouldn't be comfortable with.



[edit on 26-5-2010 by LordBucket]

Okay, I sort of see where you are coming from, so let let me try again.

What does it mean to believe in Him? To have confidence in his truth and assertions. Some could say that this means, they are taking him at his word, with no proof, but that doesn't apply to me. Also, believing is like saying something has a credit worthiness.

What am I doing when I worship? I'm always in a state of worship. I can't get him off my mind, not that I want to but he's the first thing I think of in the mornings when I awake and the last thing I think of when I go to sleep. He's every love song ever written, so I'm partial to singing to him. But the vast majority of my worship is spiritual, which is internal with the thoughts of my mind and love in my heart.

Accepting him. You said: "the idea seems to be that there is some sort of separation between God and Self...and by "accepting" God, you're allowing Him to bridge that separation and "fill you" and it's a natural consequence of this reunion that one would feel joy and love, rather than the feelings being the purpose of the filling."

I like how you worded this but it's much deeper than I can probably convey to you. What I've come to learn is that you don't notice the seperation existed until after the reunion takes place. In the old Gnostic teachings, this union was called the Bridal chamber, whereas in our Bible it is called Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Just as a man and woman unite in marriage, the same thing happens when this union takes place - as above so below. When a man and woman consumate their marriage, they have ecstasy and it oft times produces a child. That's the meaning of below and something of the earth. With divine union, the ecstasy takes place in the head/mind and it too produces a child - he is called the man-child. this is why Jesus so often referred to himself as the Son of Man. It's a total birthing process but the full measure of joy and love is the ecstasy, that takes place. And now you know the meaning of things above.

Writing his laws on our hearts - yes knowing him changes us dramatically and we want to walk in his ways.



[edit on 27-5-2010 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by LordBucket
"Accept Him as your God"

I haven't heard many Christians I can remember ever saying this. What should be said is, 'Accept Him as your Savior". meaning a few things, one accepts Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, God made flesh and bones...


As far as "believing on Him", it doesn't mean affirming a set of facts per se, but "believe in Him" in the Greek is more like saying "to place your trust in", do you trust Jesus with your salvation, trust Jesus with your life?

And as far as "worship" goes, the highest form of worship there is is to follow His commandments, to do His will.

reply to post by LordBucket


Hi lordbucket,

Thank you for your reply. I will try to answer your question with the best of my ability and knowledge given by Almighty Lord.

I will be quoting you everything from the Quran. Allah says in Quran:

"These are verses of the Book of Wisdom" (Quran 31:2)
"I swear by the Quran full of Wisdom" (Quran 36:2)
"This (Quran) is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, (Quran 17:39)

So i do not need to give any wordly example to answer you question.

First let me start with the explanation with term "God" in Islam.

It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word "god," which can be made plural, as in "gods," or made feminine, as in "goddess." It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.

To accept Allah as Allmighty, Creator, Sustainer & Nourisher it means more than anything for a true believer. He is our Creator and we are His creation.

Now let me come to you question. ..accept Him as your God " in otherwords you want to know the "releationship" establish between human beings and God. Correct me if i understood wrong.

In human to human relationship, people do good for each other to attain their own interests, or to be praised. But with Allah, if you do good, you do good for yourself, because this good that you do does not benefit Allah.

“If you do good, you do good for your own selves” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 17, Verse 7.

And as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) related in the authentic statement that Allah said:

“O My slaves, you will not attain harm in Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefit in Me so as to benefit Me; O My slaves, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that will not increase My Kingdom in anything; O my slaves, were the first of you and last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that will not decrease My Kingdom in anything; O My slaves, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and I recompense you for. So let him who finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other than that blame no one but himself.” [Reported in Saheeh Muslim, No. 6246]

In light of the above, we need to contemplate the great purpose for which we have been created. This is clearly stated by Allah:

“And Allah have not created not the jinn and the men except that they should worship me alone." The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 51, Verses 56-57.

So they are called for what benefits them. Remember the definition of worship in the beginning of this discussion? They are the ones who, if they comply, will win. And that is why He asserted in the next verse:

“I seek not any provision from them nor do I ask that they should feed Me.” The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 51, Verse 57.

Why did Allah mention food and provisions here? It is traditionally known that the greatest need for man is the need for food, clothing and residence. This requires means and provisions, and this is the wealth. That is why Allah began with it: “I seek not any provision from them,” and then He referred to food, because it is the thing most needed by people: “nor do I ask that they should feed Me," because He is all-Rich, free of all want; Self-Sufficient, needs nothing. He related to us in things we relate closely to so as to make this matter vividly clear.