Democrats Hid Damning Health Care Report From Public Until A Month After Vote

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

Wow. That was quite the rant. I'd like to clarify just a couple of small, fine points for you.

I'll not quibble with your allegation that there was no debate from 'the republicans' for a year and a half - not only because there was nothing worthy of debate ever on the floor, but mainly because those worthless damned republicans have let America down once again. One EXPECTS that sort of negligence from the left, but it's in the fine print where we are informed that the neocons who've invaded and taken over the republican party are nothing more than the right wing of the left. They're nothing more than two sides of the same coin. That's why there has been no 'change' between Bush and Obama. They're both just minions of the same party, the same agenda.

I find your assertion that SPENDING more money from governmental coffers is going to somehow SAVE taxpayers money laughable. It's nothing more than the regurgitation of partisan talking points, in an unthinking manner. For confirmation, look to the microcosm of your own personal finances. How exactly is it that SPENDING your last ten dollars also SAVES it? The same principle applies to the macrocosm of national finances.

If the 'uninsured pregnant mother' down the street deserves your money to cover her own negligence, why do you not pay her expenses on your own, rather than relying on a governmental middle man? Are you lacking in compassion or something? See, that way, you could direct your charity to the place you WANT it to go, and you could entirely bypass that pesky national army you so despise. Why is it you feel the need for others to determine where YOUR money is spent? Are you incapable of determining that on your own?

We don't have any 'undocumented workers' around here, so I can't really address that point very well. Documentation is required to work around here, so 'undocumented workers' are working illegally here. They're 'illegal aliens' in these parts, not 'undocumented workers'. Those individuals tend to get paid here in excess of the minimum wage, by about 30%. Minimum wage jobs are reserved for citizens who play by the rules. Minimum wage is what they get for their loyalty, while illegal aliens get considerably more, and pay out considerably less in taxes by working in the fields, under the table, away from the stern gaze of the tax man. It seems like some of that overage would be well spent on treating that TB that you think is endemic amongst them, but in fact most of the overage is sent back home to foreign lands, to improve THEIR economy. That's ok, though, they can send YOU the bill for their health care, right? No particular reason they should pay for their own.

I'll clue you in on one other thing - I AM one of those parents you claim is going to need 'health care'. I carried insurance for YEARS, knowing that I couldn't afford to actually USE it. It was wasted money, thrown away in a ponzi scheme of epic proportions. That's all insurance is - a scam to further enrich those who you appear to detest. Yet paradoxically, you rail in favor of enriching them even further? I just can't quite grasp the logic there, but I don't really need to. What truly puzzles me is why, if YOU want to enrich them, you find it acceptable to do it with MY money. Are you incapable of paying insurance premiums on your own, and find it necessary for government to FORCE you to?

But I digress. Back to my original point. I paid insurance uselessly for years. Even though I'm one of those parents who, according to your analysis, are 'going to need health care', I have no insurance now, nor do I want any. I've spent years looking after my own health care, in spite of the insurance I carried that I couldn't afford to use. Somehow I managed, and will continue to do so, just these days I don't rely on the false umbrella of insurance. I'm no longer enriching others who do nothing but take the money and laugh all the way to the bank. Nor am I going to.

That's right, you can have your silly, illogical scheme of governmental 'health care'. I'll not be participating. I will not be forced by your overlords to pay into the insurance ponzi scheme, nor will I pay their silly little penal taxes for refusal to do so. Paying taxes is one thing, being forced to buy a useless product at gun point is quite another. Never mind how I intend to accomplish that refusal. I promise that I ain't gonna participate in the charade, and that's really all anyone needs to know. I won't pay into it, and neither will I take out of it. That's the essence of non-participation. The money flows in neither direction.

Edit to add: love your use of the amusing phrase "robber barons". Makes it look like you don't understand that you've only traded one master for another, and that BOTH are robbing you. ESPECIALLY in this 'health care' scheme. BY buying into this, you're insisting that the governmental masters rob you and give it to the 'robber barons', so they don't have to rob you directly, but through governmental enforcers instead.

How quaint.

[edit on 2010/4/28 by nenothtu]

After reading some of the post here, I came to the same conclusion, that the corporate media has done a good job lying to the people about the realities of the HCR.

Is not free, is not private insurance regulation,, and the tax payer have to pay more taxes for the Obama version of public option, an over inflated Medicaid at the expenses of those that still makes a meaningful living even if they can not afford to pay for the use of the mandated private insurances.

Wake up people or at least those that are falling for the lies.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

That's funny, because whenever the CBO number support something the bourgeois, "step over the poor to get to the money" folks at Reason support, suddenly the CBO is a wonderful, non-partisan source of economic analysis.

You continue to IGNORE the facts. The FACTS are that Congress has a 100% negative track record, when it comes to estimating the costs of programs that it passes. A few wrong estimates, I could understand. However, when they underestimate EVERY program by orders of magnitude, then I and any reasonable person can ONLY CONCLUDE that it is pure deception on their part.

You can continue to attack Reason, other sources, etc. but there is no way you can defend your position, so attacking others, when it is CONGRESS that it at fault, merely makes you look quite silly.

I believe I have made my point, to the satisfaction of the general public. Discussing side issues with you serves no purpose but to divert focus from the true culprit, and that is CONGRESS.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by jibeho

 

WHy isn't this story all over the news?

Well, I suspect that the answer is three-fold.

First and foremost is the fact that the Lame Stream Media supports the Obama agenda, and so won't report anything that threatens that support.

The second reason is that I doubt that there were any thinking people in this country that .....

The third reason is that the government has a very long track record ...
[edit on 27-4-2010 by ProfEmeritus]

AMAZING...the amount of BS that gets tossed about here.

You list 3 reasons why the "Lame" Stream Media did not report this story, while seemingly forgeting the STORY WAS FALSE AND EVEN FOX ACKNOWLEDGED IT.

WHY WOULD ANY MEDIA ORGANIZATION REPORT A STORY THAT HAS BEEN DISPROVEN...By both the network that originally reported it and the author of the actual report??????

He just got done talking with the man who authored that report. He joins me now. Alright Bret, so what have we learned?

BAIER: It's all about the timing, isn't it? The Chief Medicare Actuary, Rick Foster, returned our email about this American Spectator blog with those anonymous quotes in there about an HHS employee saying that this report was actually submitted to Secretary Sebelius at HHS a week before the congressional vote.

He said that is not true.

The American Spectator blog is not accurate.

He said the facts are as follows. "We had access" -- meaning the Medicare actuary's office had access to the reconciliation bill -- "when it was publicly released March 18."

Because of the complexity of the bill he says it wasn't feasible to estimate the financial and other effects prior to the House vote on March 21...

they didn't have the full estimate of both reports, the reconciliation bill which became law before the vote. So, he's saying the Spectator is completely false, and that is the response we were trying to get from that office.

Here...watch the video on FOX NEWS if that helps you..
mediamatters.org...

And while everyone is handing out blame for the failings in this bill maybe it would make sense to include FOX NEWS, the GOP and everyone here that champions stories they know to be false ....WHY??

STORIES LIKE THIS and the damage they do to concervatives credibility are a HUGE PART of why the bill was less than what it should have been.

It's gone way beyond the boy who cried wolfe.

Honest people aren't even given a choice anymore on whether to view conservative media as an objective observer. Finding accuracy or truth in what they manufacture is like searching for needle in mountain of horse manuer.

For Efs sake Deny Ignorance just once in a while....just for a lark.

Then maybe we will have a real debate in this country and everyone will benefit.




[edit on 28-4-2010 by maybereal11]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


If Congress is ALWAYS wrong on estimating their projeccted costs, what makes this CBO estimate suddenly valid? You're willing to jump on the CBO bandwagon when it suits your needs, and at the same time claim they are never right?

Which is it?

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by jibeho

 

WHy isn't this story all over the news?

Well, I suspect that the answer is three-fold.

First and foremost is the fact that the Lame Stream Media supports the Obama agenda, and so won't report anything that threatens that support.

The second reason is that I doubt that there were any thinking people in this country that .....

The third reason is that the government has a very long track record ...
[edit on 27-4-2010 by ProfEmeritus]

AMAZING...the amount of BS that gets tossed about here.

You list 3 reasons why the "Lame" Stream Media did not report this story, while seemingly forgeting the STORY WAS FALSE AND EVEN FOX ACKNOWLEDGED IT.

WHY WOULD ANY MEDIA ORGANIZATION REPORT A STORY THAT HAS BEEN DISPROVEN...By both the network that originally reported it and the author of the actual report??????

He just got done talking with the man who authored that report. He joins me now. Alright Bret, so what have we learned?

BAIER: It's all about the timing, isn't it? The Chief Medicare Actuary, Rick Foster, returned our email about this American Spectator blog with those anonymous quotes in there about an HHS employee saying that this report was actually submitted to Secretary Sebelius at HHS a week before the congressional vote.

He said that is not true.

The American Spectator blog is not accurate.

He said the facts are as follows. "We had access" -- meaning the Medicare actuary's office had access to the reconciliation bill -- "when it was publicly released March 18."

Because of the complexity of the bill he says it wasn't feasible to estimate the financial and other effects prior to the House vote on March 21...

they didn't have the full estimate of both reports, the reconciliation bill which became law before the vote. So, he's saying the Spectator is completely false, and that is the response we were trying to get from that office.

Here...watch the video on FOX NEWS if that helps you..
mediamatters.org...

And while everyone is handing out blame for the failings in this bill maybe it would make sense to include FOX NEWS, the GOP and everyone here that champions stories they know to be false ....WHY??

STORIES LIKE THIS and the damage they do to concervatives credibility are a HUGE PART of why the bill was less than what it should have been.

It's gone way beyond the boy who cried wolfe.

Honest people aren't even given a choice anymore on whether to view conservative media as an objective observer. Finding accuracy or truth in what they manufacture is like searching for needle in mountain of horse manuer.

For Efs sake Deny Ignorance just once in a while....just for a lark.

Then maybe we will have a real debate in this country and everyone will benefit.




[edit on 28-4-2010 by maybereal11]

The only item that may or not be false involves the HHS source that said this report was around prior to the vote. Foster says the report wasn't ready until AFTER the vote. If Foster's account is true, why didn't congress wait for the report prior to voting???

Unnamed source vs. Foster. I don't know who to believe anymore considering how this legislation was ramrodded into law. He said, She said.

So the democrats didn't hide the report they just pushed the vote ahead of the report. Makes sense to me.

Funny, no one is debating the content and the figures stated in the report itself. Just a battle of sources. The report shoots enough holes in the lies told by this administration to call it Swiss cheese. Open your eyes!!!

We have all been hoodwinked regardless of this reports time line.

reply to post by jdub297


yeah this reform is going to destroy everything because the system we have now works pretty well

Originally posted by piddles
this has already been debunked


edit: seriously guys, check your damn sources before you post them

[edit on 27-4-2010 by piddles]

I need to repost this.

I'm also going to say this:

Whenever there's some kind of anti-obama thread people latch on because it's exactly what they want to hear. Then you and people who think like they do start posting all the same "I can't believe he'd do this HE'S SO EVIL PELOSI OWNS THE MEDIA AAAHHHH" If someone disproves it, somehow their source is faulty and they are ultimately right (by your their own logic of course).

Denying ignorance also means attaining the types of truths that aren't what you want to hear.



and whoever said that members of the obama administration owns the media, you are an idiot and a liar.
edit:
this is the source that originally claimed it trying to back it up but leaves out important details



[edit on 28-4-2010 by piddles]

reply to post by jibeho


I read this, I'm pretty sure it's because the report reflected the bill in senate (which didn't have the necessary changes it needed to not make it cost so much)

it's like writing a review for a movie while it's still in production!

Originally posted by jibeho

The only item that may or not be false involves the HHS source that said this report was around prior to the vote. Foster says the report wasn't ready until AFTER the vote.

Ok...so the only thing untrue is the ENTIRE TITLE AND HEADLINE OF THIS THREAD!
Democrats Hid Damning Health Care Report From Public Until A Month After Vote

And by "Foster" you mean the ACTUAL AUTHOR of the report?

And for there to be a "he said/she said" there needs to be another person saying something contrary..."unamed sources" on a right wing blog item are not people.

This is precisely what I mean by the conservative party effectively removing themselves from legitimate debate.

For God's sake the Dems need serious push back and vetting and as long as conservatives seem completely unconcerned with lying and championing false stories...the majority of the American public will continue to see them as not credible.

GOP Media Strategy
Lie...push emotional buttons...It's OK, people are stupid.
GOP Legislative Strategy
Oppose everything, don't concern yourself with the details or if something is actually good or bad for your constituents.

Originally posted by xizd1
This is sad, very sad.
Is this what America has come too? Where are the exits?

The worse part is that this is not the end. Many Americans knew it, but could not do anything about it, meanwhile others were claiming we need more from the Socialized government... I had a neighbor, and American mind you who has never left the states tell me that "we need Socialism"... I almost jumped him and beat him with an encyclopedia.... I asked him what did he know about Socialism, and he claimed that "it takes care of everyone"... I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, or actually beat him up with an encyclopedia to see if some knowledge, and facts would rub off on him...

Socialism is nothing more than the destruction of individualism for "the good of the whole", and once you take away individual rights, and don't give people choices anymore, but rather FORCE them, then ALL PEOPLE BECOME OPPRESSED... It should be obvious because time and again this has been done when transforming a well off Capitalist country into another Socialist dictatorship...

It happened to Cuba, castro at first claimed he was not a Socialist, but just was going to bring progress, and make all "campesinos" as rich as other people, then when he took power he said "we are Socialists now", not long after he said "we are Communists now".... Venezuela, and other countries, including the U.S. are on the same track...

Socialism is but a stage to transform a Capitalist nation into the final goal of Communism, and the day most Americans realize this, and stop it with the stupid chuckles every time someone points out what is happening, then, and only then we might be able to get the REPUBLIC back on track...

Unfortunately the Obama administration is not finished yet, and I see worse things in the way, and the way they will do it is by bankrupting the nation even more... Then the Communists, I mean "Progressives" will claim that the only way to save the nation is by implementing more Socialist laws, and force people even more to do things which only exist in Communist/Socialist dictatorships...

Also remember this because it WILL HAPPEN, Obama will ask, and demand of Americans to "serve for free" for the nation. Emmanuel Rahm was stupid enough to make the claim that by doing this people will learn what it means to be an American.... Since when does it mean to be an American that people must give up their FREEDOM for another Socialist dictatorship?.....

The "economic crisis" has not ended, and these aholes are only going to make it worse just so they can "make use of a good crisis" to implement their Socialistic dream....




[edit on 28-4-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by maybereal11


This is a lie?....Christ....who was it who said "in order to see what is in the bill we have to pass the bill first".... I guess we made that up as well....

Americans are not concerned with people like you, even if you were born here. If "Progressives"/Socialists, etc want a Socialist country go ahead and move to one of the dozens of Socialist dictatorships and see how well people live there, but leave the REPUBLIC of the United States alone....

[edit on 28-4-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Americans are not concerned with people like you, even if you were born here. If "Progressives"/Socialists, etc want a Socialist country go ahead and move to one of the dozens of Socialist dictatorships and see how well people live there, but leave the REPUBLIC of the United States alone....

great another "DO WHAT WE DO OR GIT DA HELL OUT" asshole who thinks he's the sum of America's opinion while exaggerating something that couldn't even be the truth to begin with.

fyi a few socialist-esque laws is not a socialist dictatorship but as long we're out of sync with what is actual reality, let's just tell everyone our current system is fine and the US wasn't having any problems until the socialist muslim moved in (lol)

Originally posted by piddles
reply to post by jibeho

 

I read this, I'm pretty sure it's because the report reflected the bill in senate (which didn't have the necessary changes it needed to not make it cost so much)

it's like writing a review for a movie while it's still in production!

If you read all of the facts around this case you would know that the report in question was, according to Foster, finished after the reconciliation. Which was the final word. He said they began work on the report on march 18 and the vote was cast on march 21 before the report was finished nearly a month later.

If this is true, why couldn't congress wait for the finished report. What's a month when this thing was dragged out for a year?

reply to post by maybereal11


Ok. Let's assume that this whole story and the leak is a lie rather than a cover-up for a leak. Should congress have waited for the telling details in this report prior to voting? It was only a month according to the actuary in charge. This report could have easily swayed the voting the other way and could have easily resulted in an even larger majority of Americans opposed to this bill.

Originally posted by piddles

great another "DO WHAT WE DO OR GIT DA HELL OUT" asshole who thinks he's the sum of America's opinion while exaggerating something that couldn't even be the truth to begin with.

You betray the limits of your knowledge and your vision with the statement "couldn't even be the truth to begin with". How do you think these things happen? Some jackass just rolls into town one day and says "we're communist now. Deal with it" and all the folks just roll over and say"Ah. OK" and it's done?

To say it 'can't' happen here is to announce to the world that you are asleep, and are in possession of no discernible degree of vigilance. Just so you'll know, EVERYWHERE that it HAS happened, there were people such as yourself who claimed that it CAN'T happen there.

Others differed in that opinion, and got it done while those sleepers slept, secure in their false belief that it just couldn't happen there.

fyi a few socialist-esque laws is not a socialist dictatorship but as long we're out of sync with what is actual reality, let's just tell everyone our current system is fine and the US wasn't having any problems until the socialist muslim moved in (lol)

Just how hot does the water have to get in which this frog boils before you announce that it's soup? A "few socialist-esque laws"? How many does it take? What is your personal cutoff line, before you admit the obvious?

The 'socialist muslims' crack was just beyond the pale. If that's the extent of your creativity, if that's the best you can come up with, you've just got nothing.

Nothing.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by maybereal11

 

This is a lie?....Christ....who was it who said "in order to see what is in the bill we have to pass the bill first".... I guess we made that up as well....

Yes it is a lie...acording to the author of the report and Fox News' retraction which I linked to.

Pelosi's out of context misqoute is a distraction and I am unclear how it speaks to the validity of the thread title which has been debunked.

All-in-all...Lie, then denial, then torture some logic and now distraction.

Just as I have come to expect from you.

Americans are not concerned with people like you, even if you were born here. If "Progressives"/Socialists, etc want a Socialist country go ahead and move to one of the dozens of Socialist dictatorships and see how well people live there, but leave the REPUBLIC of the United States alone....

[edit on 28-4-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

American's express thier will and opinions not through forum postings riddled with lies, but rather through voting and they have made it repeatedly clear how they feel about the corporate backed, discredited conservative movement you ape with your Sarah Palin wannabe rhetoric.

The same conservative party who as we speak blockaides regulatory reform of wallstreet for the third day.

Keep championing lies though...The GOP has confused Rush Limbaughs ratings for actual public sentiment...confused frustration with stupidity...and grossly underestimated the gullibility of the American public.

BTW - Born here? My family landed in Virginia in the 1600's and fought in the Revolutionary war and every war the "republic" of the United States has entered since. My literal namesake is honored on a revolutionary war monument as having perished "fighting like a lion" for this nation. I can name my family father to son on this soil going back 10 generations.

So you can save your psuedo-patriotic garbage and your impotent "progressive/socialist" rhetoric.....it's offending to all of us American's who loved our country long before Glen Beck told us to while dabbing crockadile tears.

I won't return the favor and ask you to leave my country and take your lies and propaganda to some third world dictatorship that has a similiar moral compass and employs similiar tactics to try and sieze power when voting and public sentiment just didn't go thier way....

I'd rather you stay, watch and learn as the American people continue to demonstrate that they are an honest people and not as stupid as the Conservative movement hopes they are. The Democrats may be fumbling around but the conservatives are just bald-ass lieing to Americans over and over.

I'd rather you stuck around and learned something about democracy and American's limited tolerance for being BSed.



[edit on 28-4-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by nenothtu


Just how hot does the water have to get in which this frog boils before you announce that it's soup? A "few socialist-esque laws"? How many does it take? What is your personal cutoff line, before you admit the obvious?

You are right. We were destined for Socialism soon after we instituted fire and police protection and levied taxes against the public to pay for it.





[edit on 28-4-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by nenothtu


Just how hot does the water have to get in which this frog boils before you announce that it's soup? A "few socialist-esque laws"? How many does it take? What is your personal cutoff line, before you admit the obvious?

You are right. We were destined for Socialism soon after we instituted fire and police protection and levied taxes against the public to pay for it.

[edit on 28-4-2010 by maybereal11]

I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you correctly. Obviously, I'm not quite grasping your meaning.

How is it, precisely, that you equate my local law enforcement and fire departments, paid out of local coffers, with the centralization of power in DC that comes with the socialist tendencies of our federal government that we've seen increasing these last 30 years?

Originally posted by nenothtu
[

I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you correctly. Obviously, I'm not quite grasping your meaning.

How is it, precisely, that you equate my local law enforcement and fire departments, paid out of local coffers, with the centralization of power in DC that comes with the socialist tendencies of our federal government that we've seen increasing these last 30 years?

Those local law enforcement and fire departments receive federal funds to subsidize equipment and training, and they are required to follow certain federally mandated guidelines.