Imposing New Testament law will mean revolution!!!

The Italian Humanists witnessed one fit of Evangelical zeal and it was enough. Toward the end of the 15 Century the monk Girolamo Savonarola roused the Florentines to a high pitch of devotion that led to the famous "bonfire of the vanities". Such a high ideal tension cannot be sustained by a whole community for very long, and when this one broke, the prophet was declared a heretic and burned at the stake with public approval. Savonarola had been too literal - too evangelical - in using the words of Christ to convert the masses.

(Barzun, Jaques: "From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 To the present". HarperCollins, 2001: p. 55.)

I wonder if this proves that any political system that strictly imposes Biblical New Testament law faces revolution?
Actually I think it will face revolution, and it makes me very concerned about Christ ruling on earth if some of the Christian prophesies come true.

So often these days I hear that "Christians" can do all things in moderation (including non-marital sex and alcohol), but that is not a literal reading!

[edit on 25-4-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by halfoldman

I've considered my post again - and I'll stick with it because I feel it's the truth!
Imagine following Christ: giving up family, fasting for 40 days and totally forbidding divorce! Imagine giving all your savings to the poor!
And then, whatever He didn't change we have to seek out in the OT.
Oh my.
If He comes back I think the usuary banks will crucify Him again.

Originally posted by halfoldman
If He comes back I think the usuary banks will crucify Him again.

Not if I get to him first. Better start working on a crucifix too so I can be ready when that never happens because he died 2,000 years ago, wasn't resurrected, and isn't coming back.

reply to post by Conqueror of Seth

Ha, ha - point taken!
I still sometimes feel however that it always depends on the interpretion of what He apparently said in various gospel chapters.
Did the Florentines get the wrong end of the stick?

There have been multiple times in Christian history where, after the politicization of the religion in the 4th century, ideas of returning to what scripture said were considered detrimental to society. Often, those who suggested going back to the Bible were persecuted, be it arrested, tortured or killed.

As has been the case for 1600 years, many have found Christianity to be an effective political tool, so long as certain elements can be repressed. As soon as the religion as a whole starts getting promoted, those political powers need to crush it in order to maintain their power. The Catholic Church has been guilty of this many times, not because they're Catholic, but because the church was such a powerful political institution and was run by people who, like all politicians, like to get and maintain power.

Something similar happened with the Anabaptist movement around the same time. This radical group of Christians had the audacious idea that baptism should be a declaration of your faith in Christ, and therefore, infant baptism was null and void since no baby was cognizant enough to make that decision.

Torture, persecution and execution ensued across Europe, and the Anabaptists were demonized. After all, if the church was ruling Europe, but people were not immediately baptized into the church upon birth, but instead, were given a choice, then people could choose to not be under the Pope's rule! Never mind that it is shown in scripture that this is theologically correct; it was not politically effective, or, as we would say today, politically correct.

As to your reaffirmation of your post... Give all your money to the poor? I'm assuming you refer to His conversation with a rich young ruler, where he was given the choice.

Christ and Christianity are not about coercion. No where does the Bible say you must fast for 40 days. No where does the Bible say you must give up your family. No where in the Bible does it say divorce is forbidden under any circumstance. No where in the Bible does it say you must give all your savings to the poor. Yet you would crucify Him for your misunderstanding.

Christ and Christianity are not about coercion. No where does the Bible say you must fast for 40 days. No where does the Bible say you must give up your family. No where in the Bible does it say divorce is forbidden under any circumstance. No where in the Bible does it say you must give all your savings to the poor. Yet you would crucify Him for your misunderstanding.

reply to post by junglejake


A miss understanding ? Looks more like willful ignorance to me.
The Bible gives directions for obtaining a divorce. It must be done
with a legal paper given.

reply to post by junglejake

Jesus on family:

www.biblegateway.com...

Not only does Jesus deny his family, He actively claims his sect-like followers are His "true" family. Furthermore, He claims to bring a "holy sword" to turn the nuclear family against each other (Luke 14:26-7; Matt 10:34-39).
He feels little for material things.
No - He might not say fast for 40 days, but everyone wears the bangles "What would Jesus do?" Well, what did He do in the desert for 40 days?

In any case, the fasting is following by example and not commanded. The same can not be said for the teaching on the poor, which DOES seem commanded:

www.biblegateway.com...

So I'm not sure what "Jesus" these "Christians" are following. It's definately not the one in my NT.





[edit on 25-4-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by junglejake

en.wikipedia.org...
The Anabaptists led a violent uprising similar to other peasant revolts at the time.
It was met with so much force and torture that they became completely pacifist.

reply to post by junglejake

I wonder, if we had a burning of the vanity today, what would we burn?
Perhaps our cellulars, i-pods and laptops?
That notion in Christianity carried on for a long time. The saddest thing for me was reading on 19th Century upbringings, and how often children were given pets like cats which were later hanged before the child, to give them a lesson on humility and idolatry (loving your pet more than Christ was wrong).

How about we leave religion totally separate from politics...it's called the "separation of church and state" and it worked great so far.

You can't take the bible literally...because tons in it has already been proven wrong by science, and if you take it literally, and some things are wrong, then everything might be wrong. If you don't take it literally, at least you have an excuse for those things which have been proven wrong

reply to post by MrXYZ

I'm not an American so for me this division of church and state has had no meaning during most of my life, and the same also goes for many countries. You also cannot tell me that during the George W Bush years there was any notion whatsoever of church and state being seperate in the US.

reply to post by halfoldman


At least they pretended to

I agree with you though, sadly this separation totally deteriorated in recent years. The evangelists are gaining power.

For someone not born in the US, the fixation on "God bless America" and the linkage of religion with politics we constantly witness on the MSM is puzzling and kind of scary. It's like watching milder, Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

reply to post by MrXYZ

I guess it does scare a lot of people over there, otherwise we wouldn't have all these threads on a similar theme of religion and power (essentially) cropping up.
As for taking the Bible literally: well that is such a big debate, and a lot of people profess belief but ignore totally what Christ said. However they would all claim to view it literally.
We can look for bigger parables like forgiveness, or brotherhood as one form of literalism. But that is not the literalism entertained at present, which views Scripture as a rule-book, or even a scientific textbook, I think this literalism which regards the Bible as inerrent on all topics is a big worry. Furthermore, in order to save the bible from its own inerrency, all kinds of non-literal interpretations are necessary.

reply to post by halfoldman


Are you telling me there was no talking snake??!!




[edit on 26-4-2010 by MrXYZ]

reply to post by MrXYZ

Well I'd still love to know, if we all became evangelical states, what would change?
Who would decide for everyone which laws to obey and which to forfeit?

reply to post by Conqueror of Seth


Jesus/Yeshua,was crucified over 2000 years ago.
He was God in flesh and paid our sin debt.
He rose from the tomb and sits TODAY at the Father's
right hand.

When He returns,He will come back to put this world
back in order and kick satan into hell.Every knee shall
bow before Him and know that He is the Messiah.

reply to post by mamabeth

A good synopsis and defense from current believers above.
But I could also say that's the phraseology that scares people: "Every knee shall bow".

And so everybody might bow, and then what?
We can't just bow forever.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mamabeth

 

A good synopsis and defense from current believers above.
But I could also say that's the phraseology that scares people: "Every knee shall bow".

And so everybody might bow, and then what?
We can't just bow forever.

Then, we start working for the Lord!We will have a lot to do
and will be kept busy doing it! I am looking forward to the
return of our Messiah,praise God!

reply to post by mamabeth

not to beg the question, but what does "working for the lord" entail?
What would be on the "to do" list?

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by Conqueror of Seth

 

Jesus/Yeshua,was crucified over 2000 years ago.

Correct.

He was God in flesh and paid our sin debt.
He rose from the tomb and sits TODAY at the Father's
right hand.

Oh that's right, a ghost in the sky impregnated a virgin with himself, got himself killed and then turned into a zombie, and now sits beside himself in heaven. lol

When He returns,He will come back to put this world
back in order and kick satan into hell.Every knee shall
bow before Him and know that He is the Messiah.

Listen, the world wasn't in order when Jesus was around, He ain't comin' back, and he'd never be a match for Satan anyway. Have you not read the bible? Satan is the only good part about it. and Personally, I will never bow before any god, real or imagined. If Jesus is the messiah then I'm the antichrist.