Clinically dead boy 'saw grandma in heaven'

5 pages talking about god on a thread about death.

I can only conclude one thing:

When one tries desperately to convince the other that there IS a god, he himself is not very sure about it.
When one tries desperately to convince the other that there IS NO a god, he himself is not very sure about it.

Let god be (or not) alone!

Let's please focus on what happened.
If the boy visited the afterlife, let's find out more about it. (can`t prove such place exists until now)
If the boy was hallucinating, let's find out more about it. ('___' is still a theoretical explanation)


C'mon people... we don't have to challenge the beliefs of others just because we can't figure out everything on the spot!


Peace

reply to post by Revolution-2012


Thank you for posting that video. And thanks a lot for your terse comments that should be applied to the skeptics here.

Atheists are kind of like UFO debunkers these days.... Run for the swamp gas theory when all else fails. Clinging to that theory like a life preserver in a sea evidence to the contrary.

When they do go to the other side and find out what jerks they were for trying to crush hope and belief to people who had a little more sense about how things work then we'll know who will be laughing last.

The thousands upon thousands of near death stories give us an eye into the other side. There was a Russian man who was dead for 3 days and brought back with a miraculous story to tell too. And there are other stories a lot like that. But alas I suppose he must have been a '___' misclassification as well.

The point that atheists keep missing in my opinion is that it is impossible to get something from nothing. God and our souls belong to a infinite quantity that can have no beginning or end. Because with a beginning we are breaking the rule of getting something from nothing. God has to have always been, (and I don't even know for sure what God is) otherwise nothing would have ever come into being in the first place. Souls are a small piece of this God medium and therefore don't have a beginning either when it's source is traced back. When the body dies (which did have a beginning of sorts i.e. the union of two reproductive cell units that spawned a host for the soul to incorporate) the soul is released back to another medium. Where it actually goes is up to much speculation and debate. But it does go somewhere as it can not have and ending due to its infinite existence status.

When science can find something that can come from nothing then they might have an argument. It is all a question of understanding what medium something came from in the end. When we understand the medium (regardless of how elusive it is) then we loose the nothing principle once again.

Near death or death revival stories are simply nothing more than a recounting of a story that is in the process of continuing whether the body is there or not.

reply to post by Sator


There are not five pages solely talking about God, and there are plenty of posts that are simply debating whether consciousness is biological or something else. Funny you chose to ignore that and instead talk about God.

I'm not so sure I believe in demons and angels, but one of my father's best friends was at my parents house for a grill out during the Cowboy's game. He had been sick for a while (the friend), gained a lot of weight due to alcoholism and was a heavy smoker. He and my dad had gotten to talking about life and death and had told my dad that he was seeing demons out of the corner of his eyes, and seeing men peeking in his windows watching him, but could never get a good look, just enough to know that there was something there. A few weeks later my dad had went to check on him, his health was getting pretty bad, and my dad had found him in the tub dead holding a bottle of liquor with all the lights in the house on. No water in the tub either. Very strange, but my dad says he knew exactly when he was going to die and that they had discussed it during the game and he told my dad that he didn't have a week left.

I knew him a very long time and I have to believe him somewhat, whether or not they were demons he was seeing remains a mystery, but I do believe he was seeing SOMETHING. I always wondered why he chose the tub.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by milkmustache]

Originally posted by phi1618
i call BS, if his heart stopped beating for 3 hours + he wouldnt be in any state to speak again.....ever...he would be brain dead

He was half frozen which I think changes the matter of time. Not 100% sure thou.

reply to post by Sator


Please show me where I once talked about God in any of these replies?

Most of the ones talking about God, ironically and predictable, are the atheists.

I am discussing NDEs...not God...it is other people who seem to assume that NDE = God...and so investigating NDEs as something more than a chemical reaction MUST mean I'm trying to prove God.

There is some seriously flawed logic in that thinking.

Good god, why is everybody so hostile in this discussion? I don't even want to share my thoughts on this, in fear that either side is going to just attack my post without question. Folks, settle the F' down.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Risen

 

This argument doesn't prove much at all. Because for those in NDE's who do remember their "dream" as you are comparing it to...all seem to have a very very similar dream.

That opinion depends on what you think dreams and death are, so of course it wouldn't 'prove' anything to someone who already thinks theres nothing interesting about either.

It's likely that the kid in question had been told previously that Grandma was in heaven and for all we know he might have had multiple previous dreams about his Grandma as well as on this occasion.

A lot of people choose to believe there's life after death because they can't handle the thought of death being the end of all consciousness, they refuse to accept it.

Although most of me doesn't believe there's life after death I'd love nothing more than to be wrong, I actually envy people who fully believe there is life after death because it would be a lot less scary when the time comes. The problem is, I'm not going to believe there is an afterlife just because someone said so, I can't 'choose' to believe can I? Belief should come natural without having to 'choose' what the belief is.

The atheists find the concept of life after death ridiculous but no one seems to doubt the credibility of scientists discovering alternative universes and observing an object standing still and moving at the same time.

www.foxnews.com...

What gets me in this story is that the child is 3 years old. Which means there is no filter between brain and mouth...the child is saying what he observed. Also, the child didn't see mommy, daddy, grandma, grandpa or Fluffy his pet bunny. You would think at a moment of stress and hallucination a child would see the people that would comfort him. Instead he saw his great-grandmother. Why the generational leap? I doubt it was because he had heard story after story of the life of his great-grandmother and it stuck in his brain.

Its always possible a message was planted in the kid's brain by the parents but that sort hoax probably wouldn't stand up or be endorsed by the hospital. Just ask the parents in the Balloon Boy hoax how well a small child will lie for you.

reply to post by NumberNone


Excellent points.

If this is just some grand hallucination why doesn't he see people who comfort him like his parents or a pet if he has one?

Why deceased people and not an older sister or brother who is still alive if it's just a dream?

Why the generational leap to a great grandmother at 3 years old?

Think about it this way: if there's nothing eternal there is no point to anything. What will the universe have accomplished by existing that it couldn't accomplish by not existing? If there is nothing eternal--God, a collection of data on various experiences, an afterlife--the existence of anything is absurd. Nothing matters.

Originally posted by Solomons
NDE's are a result of the body dying, the lack of oxygen and a specific mixture of chemical processes cause them. I have never seen any evidence to prove they are more than that and absolutely no explanation as to why most people have no such experiences, if floating off to magical land is what happens when you die then why does it not happen to everyone? I have a close friend that died and was resuscitated, he had no NDE...does he not have a soul?

Like i said, i believe it is a very specific mix of things that cause them hence not everyone experiences them.

Your friend simply did not remember the eperience is all. To use a different example, your friend does not remember all of his dreams that he has had in his entire life span either, nor do you. But since some people didn't remember their dreams last night does that mean that nobody actually dreams now?


With your argument everyone should die at the same time and the same way, otherwise death of the body doesn't occur either. But we all know that death of the body occurs anyway even if we don't all die the same way and at the same time now don't we?


The near death experience did not come to us in reference manual that explains exactly how it must unfold. Pity that for you huh? Because it sounds like this is the only way in which you'd be satisfied.

"he allegedly saw his great-grandmother in heaven."

Allegedly this and allegedly that. I am sick of seeing this stupid word in every news broadcast where someon did or said something. Stop saying this dumb word!!

Originally posted by 547000
Think about it this way: if there's nothing eternal there is no point to anything. What will the universe have accomplished by existing that it couldn't accomplish by not existing? If there is nothing eternal--God, a collection of data on various experiences, an afterlife--the existence of anything is absurd. Nothing matters.

Yet another excellent post and intriguing argument. If I'm not mistaken, The Theater of Absurd movement was based upon that concept right there, that nothing matters. What I find intriguing about that is in the use of the word matter. Consider the space between:

The solidity of a substance is the result of strong electrical bonds between electrons and their nuclei. Despite their distance from the nucleus, the negatively charged electrons are held strongly in place by their attraction to the protons in the atom's center. This attraction creates a great deal of structural integrity and a strong force that repels the electrons of other atoms.

We benefit from this repellent force every day. Despite the empty spaces that exist in every atom, when we lean on a tabletop, our hands cannot pass through the wood or metal in that surface. Just as it would be impossible to pass one open fishnet through another open fishnet without cutting or tearing the fibers they're made of, it is also impossible to pass one atom through another without destroying the atoms entirely.

It matters because we benefit from this repellent force every day. Is it all just a strange and happy accident, or is there some kind of grander design? More and more, science seems to illustrate a grand design, particularly in physics, where science is less influenced by opinions, and intractable beliefs, other than the belief that all physical properties can be measured and defined. All physical properties, but what of the space between?

reply to post by Hawkwind.


The only reason death without a belief in an afterlife is so scary is because I think life nowadays is so damn trivial and petty. I mean I think there are just as good of arguments against life after death as there are for life after death. I mean how would life or humanity changed if we realized that all we have is our time here on earth and NOTHING else???? Would humanity change? I mean if I personally found that out..........I would change 180 degrees. But that's also what's ironic. Why would it have to take the proof that there is no life after death to make me change my life so drastically? I should do it anyways.i.e love more, hate less, stress less, seize certain opportunities etc. Very interesting point and thanks for your post. At the end of the day sometimes I truly believe that all we have as human beings is our extremely short life here on Earth and we should make the most of it. There is no after life. But then life here on earth makes so much sense in the presence and belief of an afterlife. Such a hard dilemma. The power of the human brain to imagine and believe one way or the other....to think and reason......is what is so profound.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker8300
"he allegedly saw his great-grandmother in heaven."

Allegedly this and allegedly that. I am sick of seeing this stupid word in every news broadcast where someon did or said something. Stop saying this dumb word!!

LOL this made me laugh.

I myself have had enough of how all the british newsreporters put on a fake newsreporter voice/accent and fake smiles. It makes them seem so robotic and annoying to me after all these years.

They allegedly assume it makes them appear more intelligent. But to me I'd prefer someone acting more human to report the news.



[edit on 9-4-2010 by _Phoenix_]

I cannot help but recall Plato's "Allegory of the Cave".
webspace.ship.edu...
You must read the story, but...
If you are chained in a cave with the belief that reality consists of only shadows on a wall, you should not ridicule another that has broken the chain and seen the light. In fact, doing so is entertainment for those that know better, regardless at how poorly they may relate their experience.

"Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?"

reply to post by Revolution-2012


woa woa woa! atheist nuts? so when you don't believe in an afterlife or believe in the cycle of death-dreamless sleep for eternity; this would make somebody a nut? as for documentation and proof you ask for due to "somebody blurting out quotes like derperderperderperderper" you want to to criticize somebody with no medical background as "blurting out" nonsense but you want to call atheists nuts?

correct me if i looked into your statement a little to deep but as an atheist i find it a bit unfair for christians, catholics, muslims, jews etc... to label me as a nut because i do not share the same belief.


as for the story, i do find it interesting and sometimes it does make me wonder if there is in fact some form of an afterlife. although i find the odds very slim, i do sometimes wonder if maybe whatever somebody holds a their belief in what happens after you die is what happens to that individual.

for instance, say i believe that when i die i will get to hang out with my friends and have an eternal gaming session, maybe because my brain truly believes that, when the '___' floods it sticks for good and therefore what i truly believed would happen, takes place.

just an idea. it would be nice, but alas, i don't feel that when we die we spend eternal life in paradise or agony. dreamless sleep forever and ever.

here is how i perceive death: think of what your consciousness was like before you were born

reply to post by Revolution-2012


Actually im in school right now and what I did learn is that when people die, especially very young children, the body starts to deteriorate immediately especially the brain and does so faster in 1-2-3- year old kids. Not saying this is impossible, anything is possible but from my understand from school that even a few minutes with out oxygen is real bad, the boy is going to come back with some serious physical issues after 2-3 hrs of death!