When was Venus first seen?

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012

Originally posted by Devino
[The connection between Venus to ancient myths, culture, calendars and apocalyptic events is staggering. The planet Venus seems to have been associated in a very big way to an unveiling of sacred knowledge yet today we regard all of this as pseudo-science or superstitious nonsense.
Could there be a connection between the supposed appearance of Venus and the global change in Earth's calendar from 360 days to 365.24219?

Yes, the connection between the ancients and venus is really amazing.

You know what pisses me off the most about this whole venus situation? KNOW ONE is talking about it! I go to the book store and there are zero books on Venus! Sadly i have been pushed to the wacky new age section for some of my research because scientists don't find venus "interesting" enough to investigate?!? What the hell!

I wonder if the church and the bible has any clues that can help us? After all, SATAN is named after Venus..

Lucifer is a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, heralding daylight. Use of the word in this sense is uncommon in English, in which "Day Star" or "Morning Star" are more common expressions.

Say Adversary. If you were speaking in Hebrew you would say Saw-tan, but since you are speaking in English, the word is Adversary. Cut out all the mumbo jumbo, because all these people running around afraid of the boogy man will become confused and think that Satan is a Red Horned Goat man. He/She/They are not. If you have an enemy, he is satan and likewise you are as well. God is Satan to those who appose him as well as the opposing party is Satan.

It's like saying Jerk. You call someone a Jerk, that doesn't mean their name is Jerk. Satan...same same.

Phosphorus (Lucifer) means light barer. Anyone baring the light is Phosphorus. Jesus being the most recent "phosphorus" is designated as such by his own words.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

You have to re arrange your thinking about these things if you want to get further then you are. You need to think "outside of the box" and that box is state sponsored and uniform, but the path you are looking for is not that path. You can have 100 people to screw in a light bulb, but all you need is you, your eyes, your ears, and your comprehension.

Venus is awesome, but without Saturn not much will make sense other then a pentagram here and there.

Saturn is the Record Keeper. Someday they will figure out how to read the rings, in due time. No one goes to the "Farther/Father" except through him. Saturn is the gate...ring around the rosie....and holds the secrets....pocket full of posies......to everything we know...ashes ashes we all fall down.

Always remember...As above, so below...Macro to micro...everything is in front of you. It is hidden under "education". Just ask Pavlov's Dog.

Peace


[edit on 19-3-2010 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
You know what pisses me off the most about this whole venus situation? KNOW ONE is talking about it! I go to the book store and there are zero books on Venus! Sadly i have been pushed to the wacky new age section for some of my research because scientists don't find venus "interesting" enough to investigate?!?

Perhaps most people feel as I did thinking Venus to be very uninteresting. If mainstream science were to consider the real connections between Venus, mythology and ancient astronomers this would all change.
Most of these connections have to do with the observed motions between Earth and Venus in conjunction with the Sun. This is not an easy thing to visualize yet a good astro-animation of these apparent motions would change all of that. These motions get really interesting when you add in the cycles of Mercury (inferior/superior conjunctions), Mars oppositions and Lunar cycles of our Moon. Honestly I haven't been able to visualize all of these cycles so I can only wonder at what would be found.

I wonder if the church and the bible has any clues that can help us? After all, SATAN is named after Venus..

I believe the bible does mention a disruption of planetary cycles, including that of Earth's, and a change in the length of year so there is information there to be found. Satan is a term used to describe an "accuser" and is quite different from the words Lucifer and Beelzebub. These words get mistranslated and thrown into the same meaning, this is an obfuscation of the truth.

The bible has some words describing a 360 day calendar yet we are told this is nothing because Earth has always had a 365 1/4 day year and it has never changed. This has been called "collective amnesia" as we have forgotten our history for whatever reason, good or bad.

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
The transit of venus happens precisly where the galactic alignment will appear it is also where the winter solstice occurs. If you can make it to the southern hemisphere, you could catch a very good view.

The 2012 Venus transit happens on the morning of June 6th which is more than 2 weeks before the Northern summer solstice and over 6 months before the winter solstice that has the alignment with the Milky Way's center. On June 21st Earth will be in alignment with the galactic center on the night side yet this happens every year. What the relevant discussion about this and 2012/Maya calendar is all about is still beyond me.

I am afraid I am going to disappoint you. I think Venus was first observed when humans turned their eyes to the evening sky and noticed its beauty. I cannot pinpoint when it happened (it probably didn't happen in only one isolated incident, people turn their eyes to the sky every night, all over the world. Why would it be different in ancient times? And by "ancient" I mean a couple of hundred thousand years ago)

As for any ring guardian, gate keeper or whatever else, I only know of Sauron the Abhorred, aka Lord of the Rings. Far enough out of the box?

reply to post by Devino



What will this animation be based upon? Mainstream science? That could condemn the whole thing because either it is right, in which case mainstream is not that bad after all or it is wrong, in which case we need a new correct basis to stand upon.

According to documentaries (namely, parts of 2-3 episodes of the Universe series) there is interest in Venus, scientifically, because Venus could show us how Earth could end up if the greenhouse effect escalated too much. The difficult thing about it is that the environment is hostile enough to setup any kind of research facility except high in the atmosphere, in the highly acidic
atmosphere! Unfortunately, reading the Bible or tapping in mythologies is NOT enough to prove whatever theory and/or speculation. Science observes, takes measurements, constructs models, establishes said models through rigorous tests and additional observations and then promotes theory to fact!

Either the box is not agreeable with pure speculations or the words "solid proof" that tend to reside in the box are too much for some people

Originally posted by Maegnas
I am afraid I am going to disappoint you. I think Venus was first observed when humans turned their eyes to the evening sky and noticed its beauty. I cannot pinpoint when it happened (it probably didn't happen in only one isolated incident, people turn their eyes to the sky every night, all over the world. Why would it be different in ancient times? And by "ancient" I mean a couple of hundred thousand years ago)

As for any ring guardian, gate keeper or whatever else, I only know of Sauron the Abhorred, aka Lord of the Rings. Far enough out of the box?

Nope, your in the "Box" office, though Sauron is a representation of Saturn.

Peace

Originally posted by Maegnas
reply to post by Devino

 

What will this animation be based upon? Mainstream science? That could condemn the whole thing because either it is right, in which case mainstream is not that bad after all or it is wrong, in which case we need a new correct basis to stand upon.

According to documentaries (namely, parts of 2-3 episodes of the Universe series) there is interest in Venus, scientifically, because Venus could show us how Earth could end up if the greenhouse effect escalated too much. The difficult thing about it is that the environment is hostile enough to setup any kind of research facility except high in the atmosphere, in the highly acidic
atmosphere! Unfortunately, reading the Bible or tapping in mythologies is NOT enough to prove whatever theory and/or speculation. Science observes, takes measurements, constructs models, establishes said models through rigorous tests and additional observations and then promotes theory to fact!

Either the box is not agreeable with pure speculations or the words "solid proof" that tend to reside in the box are too much for some people

Saturn was known as NINIB to the Sumerians, which Stitchen translated into a more well known name....NIBIRU, though unfortunately Stitchen has not realized this yet, thinking it is some 10th planet on a 3600 year orbit

Originally posted by Maegnas
What will this animation be based upon? Mainstream science?

Yes, of coarse. Based on the orbital mechanics of celestial objects from what we know today. The astronomical understanding of the planets is not limited to the physical make up of these celestial bodies, their atmosphere and temperatures.

Orbital mechanics deals with the observed and predictable motions of these solar objects in conjunction with each other;

• The characteristics of their rotations and orbits around the Sun.
  
• Their angles of obliquity and orbital inclination to the ecliptic.
  
• Ascending/descending orbital nodes and the slow migration of these node crossings (node crossing are what cause transits and eclipses.
  
• Superior and inferior conjunctions and oppositions.
  

It is from the observation of some of these motions of Earth and Venus alone that has caused a great understanding of the connection between these two worlds. It is from this that the pentagram was noticed as shown in BeastMaster2012's original post.
Think about this, what does the pentagram represent and does this have anything to do with the meaning of the name Lucifer? The astronomical connection is with the planet Venus but does that make the planet Venus evil?

This is just the beginning as all of the motions of celestial objects in our solar system has a connection with ancient historical myths and astronomical observations. The ancients were very aware of these apparent motions and they recorded them with great accuracy and detail yet today mainstream science calls this superstitious nonsense. Every time I read about ancient civilizations I find a connection to astronomy and the same goes with astronomy, I end up reading about ancient civilizations. This is no mere coincidence, there is a myriad of information to be learned from ancient knowledge.

From what I have read about Venus the current explication of it having been formed in its observed orbit some 4.5 billion years ago defies the evidence from this planet. Much of this evidence shows that some time in the recent past there was a great catastrophe involving the planet Venus and as ancient myths reveal a great celestial upheaval was observed. For now we can only speculate as to a connection but denying any possible connections is ignorant science.

In my opinion the place to start looking for when Venus might have first been observed is with the change of Earth's calendar. We have all been taught that the Earth has always had a calendar of 365 1/4 days per year yet why are there ancient calendars found around the world that have only 360 days?
That is 12 Lunar cycles (months) of 30 days each.
Is it possible that Earth's year increase by 5 1/4 days in the recent past?


[edit on 3/20/2010 by Devino]

Originally posted by Devino
Perhaps most people feel as I did thinking Venus to be very uninteresting. If mainstream science were to consider the real connections between Venus, mythology and ancient astronomers this would all change.
Most of these connections have to do with the observed motions between Earth and Venus in conjunction with the Sun. This is not an easy thing to visualize yet a good astro-animation of these apparent motions would change all of that. These motions get really interesting when you add in the cycles of Mercury (inferior/superior conjunctions), Mars oppositions and Lunar cycles of our Moon. Honestly I haven't been able to visualize all of these cycles so I can only wonder at what would be found.

Yeah, it took me a pretty long time to really REALLY understand how the earth venus conjunction visually appears. I haven't really looked into Mercury's conjunctions, i will have to do that.

I believe the bible does mention a disruption of planetary cycles, including that of Earth's, and a change in the length of year so there is information there to be found. Satan is a term used to describe an "accuser" and is quite different from the words Lucifer and Beelzebub. These words get mistranslated and thrown into the same meaning, this is an obfuscation of the truth.

I find it interesting that it seems the church is trying to hide the importance of venus. The pentacle used to be used in early christian art but they stopped using it and the upside down pentacle became "evil".

I wonder if Venus was important in Judaism? It could be. I will have to look in my "the Book of Hiram" and see if there are any leads. That is a great "venus" book, have you read it?

The Rosslyn Chapel has some rumors that it could have been partly designed around Solomon's Temple..

Two authors with a more than casual interest in Rosslyn Chapel, Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight, have been claiming for several years that the chapel itself is based on the Temple of Solomon. Their main focus is on the west wall of the building. This, they claim, resembles the wall of the Temple of Solomon; rather than unfinished, they believe St Clair wanted it to look like that, to mimic the temple wall. They claim it could never have been part of a larger church - even though there are drawings of much larger church for the site - as the wall itself is non-weight-bearing and hence could never have supported the larger structure. So is there no hidden mystery?

www.philipcoppens.com...

The reason i bring this up is because in the Rosslyn Chapel there is a pentagram shaped hole were light shines through. I will look this up and reply when i find more info. If Judaism has important links with Venus i would be very happy.

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
...it took me a pretty long time to really REALLY understand how the earth venus conjunction visually appears. I haven't really looked into Mercury's conjunctions, i will have to do that.

It has been some time since I have thought about this stuff but the beautiful simplicity is easy to remember. As Venus makes a pentagram from the alignments at Inferior Conjunction the planet Mercury makes a triangle with conjunctions happening every 115.88 days, that's 3 times in less than one year.


Here are some illustrations I made awhile back;

This shows Mercury's Inferior Conjunctions with Earth which make a triangle.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/932fc937e96b.jpg[/atsimg]
Now here are Mercury's Superior Conjunctions with Earth that make an inverted triangle.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/dd9555847b81.jpg[/atsimg]
Here is what we get when both of these synodic periods are added together.
The star of David.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5c5487621e36.jpg[/atsimg]
This is an approximation of these alignments and fail to represent the actual mechanics of these motions. I think the realignment of this cycle is off by 17 1/2 days. Like I said it has been awhile since I have thought about this stuff.

What I haven't done is put these alignments together, Venus' pentagram and Mercury's star of David, in their correct astronomical alignment but I kind of get the idea. There are repeating cycles yet does this whole cycle repeat? Remember there are a lot of motions under way here.

Add to this the opposition alignments with Mars, which I think is a double square, and then we get geometrical shapes that are described in both Freemasonry and Gnosticism. Keep in mind that while these alignments are occurring over time the planes of these planetary orbits are also following points of alignment (node crossings) and these orbital plane nodes are all moving.

I cannot put all of these motions together in my mind so this is where an animation would come in handy. I think it would be valuable to put all of these physical orbital characteristics into an animation in the right perspective so we can see these alignments in motion. The key here is accuracy in the orbital alignments and apparent motions with an adjustable point of observation.

Here is an example of the Lunar Librations in motion.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0b109fbd4932.gif[/atsimg]
This is an animation of the motions observed from the Moon as see here on Earth that beautifully illustrates an understanding of Lunar Librations.

I find it interesting that it seems the church is trying to hide the importance of venus. The pentacle used to be used in early christian art but they stopped using it and the upside down pentacle became "evil".

Yeah, "interesting" is one word... In all fairness though this obfuscation of understanding of the truth is what has been called the global collective amnesia. There is a reason why we forgot and why we continue to not want to remember, I am speaking collectively here, yet I believe a time is coming in which we will no longer be able to hide this understanding. This can be a rude awakening for many people.

I wonder if Venus was important in Judaism? It could be. I will have to look in my "the Book of Hiram" and see if there are any leads. That is a great "venus" book, have you read it?

No I haven't read "The Book of Hiram”, thanks for the link. I enjoy physics and astronomy yet it was after reading Immanuel Velikovsky’s “Wolds in Collision” that I began to question all of this and take a closer look at what’s going on. I see many connections and I am beginning to understand celestial mechanics like never before yet I don’t understand much of what I am seeing. For ever connection answered I always find several more questions.

No I haven't read "The Book of Hiram”, thanks for the link. I enjoy physics and astronomy yet it was after reading Immanuel Velikovsky’s “Wolds in Collision” that I began to question all of this and take a closer look at what’s going on. I see many connections and I am beginning to understand celestial mechanics like never before yet I don’t understand much of what I am seeing. For ever connection answered I always find several more questions.

That book looks cool, i will check it out.

I read some of the book of hiram yesterday and found some interesting things. The original city of Jerusalem before David came was supposed to be dedicated to Venus, if i recall correctly. I will have to pull a quote from the book in a few hours.

To address your question about the discovery of the planet Venus I think there are several points of information to consider in this research. If indeed there was an upheaval of the planetary orbits (addition of at least one new planet) then there would be evidence proving this. I think this evidence, either for or against, can be found in the orbital measures of Earth and our Moon. There is a lot of information that has been coming out showing an ancient 360 day calendar and this would be one key to the puzzle.

Ancient World Mysteries.

Work of Velikovsky.


It would be easy to assume that all of this did not happen and leave it at that but this would leave us with a lot of questions regarding ancient myths. I guess we could then regard these myths as nothing more than superstitious nonsense but this would leave many questions regarding the origin of our geographical and time measures. At some point there is an awareness that we must assume and dismiss away far too much information to make the current model work. The fact that we still use the same system of measures that the ancients used begs the question of the origin of these measures. This alone cannot be dismissed as either superstition nor coincidental. The ancients were very intelligent and figured out a system of measure for both geometrical distances and time that works so well we use it without question today.

The Maya have both a 360 and 260 day calendar with the addition of 5+ days that are considered bad luck days, bad things happen like fire falls from the sky and other horrible things. The 260 day calendar is based upon the synodic cycles of Venus.

When Venus emerges as the morning star it takes a bit over 260 days until it disappears behind the Sun for about 50 days emerging as the evening star. This period, as the evening star, takes again a little over 260 days until it disappears in front of the Sun for 8 days. It is at this time that many Maya rituals happen and is also the time when a transit of Venus can occur taking place at 115.5 and 120.5 years.

The Maya 260 day calendar and the actual motions of Venus observed today are off by some 5 or 6 days (260+260+50+8=578 +6=584). I don't understand much of what I have read about the Maya calendars but I think many connections will be found by keeping this idea in mind.

Nope, your in the "Box" office, though Sauron is a representation of Saturn.

And you know this how? Did JRR tell you? Because he never wrote anything like that. About the name, he only wrote that he wanted it to sound bad (pronounced "sa-oo-r-on" instead of "soron", with a pronounced "r" to maximize the effect). No connotation to planetary linkings or representations ever mentioned by Sauron's creator yet you know what he represented. Amazing!

Also, have you notified Sitchin that his mistranslation was not only about Nibiru being a planet but it extends as far as which planet it is? He would like to know, at least I would if I was him.

P.S. If I mean something different please notify me, I always want to be informed of the "hidden" meaning my posts may have. Or, maybe, you can undertake the whole business of writing my posts (and those of others) since your insight on other people's intentions is so high and infallible.

In the above post I linked "The Work of Velikovsky" as a comparative to some of his claims. I feel it is important to show both sides of this debate as I find it very difficult to accept the claims from Velikovsky, this does not mean I think he is wrong. I found many errors in that article I linked yet I also feel that there are also errors in Velikovsky's work as well. Fortunately for us today there is a lot more information to look at as many others have also been researching this story about Venus.

Here is an interesting link;
The 360 Day Year, the Exodus, the Mayans and Calendar Chaos- by William F. Dankenbring.
This has a lot of information about possible changes in Earth's year from biblical testaments with linked chapters that makes it easily verifiable.


Here is a summary from Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament - as he describes "Worlds in Collision".
Immanuel Velikovsky and the Old Testament

According to Velikovsky, the events related to the ten plagues that struck Egypt at the time of the Exodus was caused by a comet that passed close to earth around 1500 B.C. This comet eventually became the planet Venus.

Here we find a connection to possible evidence of a new planet having arrived in the recent past, the planet Venus.

To me, Velikovsky’s theory is more than science and more than theology. His book is a work of comparative mythology that uses philology, theology, archaeology, and a little bit of psychology to defend and to prove the reliability of the biblical text.

I must say, having read "Worlds in Collision", I was overwhelmed by the amount of references supported in Velikovsky's book. In my opinion this gives a literal understanding to the Old Testament.

it is almost unbelievable that the planet Venus did not exist until 3500 years ago and that Venus and Mars did not have their present orbits until 2700 years ago.

I agree and originally found this theory to sound ridiculous yet new evidence about these two planets seems to confirm the basis of his claims.

...words of Robert H. Pfeiffer, the late Chairman of the Department of Semitic Language and History at Harvard University.

“Dr. Velikovsky discloses immense erudition and extraordinary ingenuity. He writes well and documents all his statements with original sources . . . His conclusions are amazing, unheard of, revolutionary, sensational . . . If Dr. Velikovsky is right, this volume is the greatest contribution to the investigation of ancient times ever written.”

Here is a link to a 45 min video posted on Dr. Mariottini's site that criticizes his work. Keep in mind Velikovsky's work, "Worlds in Collision" was done back in the 1950's and a lot of the Velikovsky movement took place back in the 1970's.
Video: Immanuel Velikovsky: Worlds in Collision

And, as promised by Dr. Mariottini, a sympathetic view of "Worlds in Collision".
A Sympathetic View of Immanuel Velikovsky’s Theory

This is a really interesting read, very thought provoking!
I don't feel like googling my life away. Are there any programs that we ATSers can use to maybe search and upload our own findings on orbits and cool looking shapes in the sky?

reply to post by Devino


I am about to run and i haven't read your complete post yet but i have been thinking about your 360 day theory and it sounds intriguing.

Have you ever calculated or thought about how long a mayan long count would be with 360 days instead of 365?

Like the current "birth of Venus" long count, the 5th and last cycle lasted 5125 earth years.

So i wonder if the 4th cycle would be shorter?

btw i misplaced my book on book of hiram, i will find it today hopefully.. there are so many venus references in there it is pretty crazy.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


The Mayan Long Count calendar would be exactly as long. "Years" have nothing to do with the progression of the Long Count. It's all factors of, if I'm not mistaken, 13 and 20. The closest thing that they have to a "year" is 260 days long.

Great thread OP!

The real question shouldn't be when they recorded Venus, because it is known the Sumerians had knowledge of this planet, as did the Mayans. The real question should be how did they know other planets existed? How did they know this is a planet without observing it from above the sky?

Those are some mind bending questions.

reply to post by Equinox99


The real question should be how did they know other planets existed?

It seems that if you stare at the sky long enough and at certain points, you notice stars moving.

I see it like this. Ancient astronomers build temples high above the ground and built a room with holes in the rooms. Or like Stonehenge, you just need a point of reference to always look from. The hole in the room would be the easiest because it would be very dark inside and you can see the stars and planets better, i believe.

The sun stays still and we move around the sun. It takes 365 days to do this. If, on January 1st, 3000bc you are looking through a hole and you see 5 stars. You remember this or write it down somehow and wait till January 1st, 2999bc because that position will almost exactly be the same when looking at the hole. Now if you see 6 stars, and 5 of them you are positive were there last year, you have to wonder what that extra star is. This probably lead to the discovery of planets.

But ofcourse that is just observing these moving "stars". Maybe they did have previous knowledge passed onto them about planets. That is the question.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Yes but how did they know we were on a large planet, and they were gazing at planets? It is like putting an ant on a large ball. The ant will not be able to tell it is on a ball because it is limited to what it sees. How were they able to tell that what they were looking at were in fact round planets?

The Sumerians foretold the planets pretty accurately. How are they able to see Mercury?

Very intriguing.

That is a good question and i am not sure of the answer. I have a few ideas though.

I believe the egyptians had the ability to tell latitude and longitude. I remember seeing this in a documentary and didn't really understand it, but by measuring the shadows of the sun from different points on the earth at the same time, they were able to figure out that the earth was round.

If they knew the earth was round, maybe they ventured to the north or south pole to see if they would discover something important astronomically.

I have no idea. Astronomy is the key to all this and the mayans were experts in this, as were the egyptians.

Man, i would give millions of dollars (that i do not own) to really know what was going on before 3000bc.. how great would that be. It all gets fuzzy around that time.