France and Russia forge alliance with gas, warship deals

France and Russia forge alliance with gas, warship deals

euobserver.com

"How can we say to our Russian partners we need you for peace, we need you to resolve a number of crises in the world, particularly the Iranian crisis ... but we don't trust you, we can't work with you" .. Mr Sarkozy said at the press event.

"We wish to put the Cold War behind us. The time has come to turn the page and look to a new era."

...

Mr Sarkozy on Monday also promised to urge EU countries to simplify demands for a visa-free travel pact with Russia

(visit the link for the full news article)

This has created some internal EU problems between Ex Eastern Bloc states and France..

And even though the official EU policy os one of friendship with Russia.. NATO separates the EU in security matters and partners that group with the US so its a big change in policy.. It shows a massive shift in how the main EU powers are now looking at the world.

It is a good move by the French IMO, the Germans will back them and therefore all of Western Europe apart from the UK probably.. Eastern Europe will be a bit colder to the idea because of the whole Communism thing..

It's also bound to annoy the US a bit but I don't think the French administration has ever really listened to the US in foreign policy matters anyway.

A tight economic and security partnership between the EU and Russia would pretty much guarantee stability between the EU, US and Russia in the future..

Im not a big fan of the visa free travel for Ruskies through the EU until they can at least double their average yearly income per capita.

euobserver.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

The announcement comes at a time where Wargames between Georgia and the US are to take place on the border of Russia..

www.globalresearch.ca...

AND at a time where the US is beginning to surround Russia, Iran and China with "Defensive" missiles..

www.globalresearch.ca...

This new partnership with France and by proxy the EU is bound to change the face of overall security relations between the EU and US in the long term..

Originally posted by Dermo


This has created some internal EU problems between Ex Eastern Bloc states and France..

And even though the official EU policy os one of friendship with Russia.. NATO separates the EU in security matters and partners that group with the US so its a big change in policy.. It shows a massive shift in how the main EU powers are now looking at the world.

It is a good move by the French IMO, the Germans will back them and therefore all of Western Europe apart from the UK probably.. Eastern Europe will be a bit colder to the idea because of the whole Communism thing..

It's also bound to annoy the US a bit but I don't think the French administration has ever really listened to the US in foreign policy matters anyway.

A tight economic and security partnership between the EU and Russia would pretty much guarantee stability between the EU, US and Russia in the future..

Im not a big fan of the visa free travel for Ruskies through the EU until they can at least double their average yearly income per capita.

euobserver.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

There is no reason for our union to let America dictate us what we can and cannot do. Russia is of major strategic and economic importance to the EU and vice versa.
Norway and the Netherlands are the only two EU members with significant gas reserves, the rest is more or less dependent on Russia, making it crucial to strengthen ties with them.

It is good that Yanukovych has won the elections in Ukraine, as he could serve as a bridge builder between Russia and the EU. We cannot have another gas cut off, and Yanukovych seems a reasonable man, a man of consensus. He doesn't anger Russia (in fact he is offered Russia to extend its Sevastopol navy contract) and actually tries to stabilize his country. He is well aware that strong economic and political relations with both Russia and the EU are crucial to achieve that. Eventually, we all benefit from it.

"We also discussed natural gas deliveries to European consumers," Yanukovych told journalists during the joint press conference with Barroso. "To make that goal come true, we will enhance our relations with Russia ... and the modernization of our (gas pipeline) infrastructure." source

I know that my own country (the Netherlands), Germany, Italy and France have strong relations with Russia and that, apart from the former East bloc and the UK, most other countries do indeed wish to build a constructive relationship with Russia.

Obviously, the US remains the EU's most important ally, but not at the expense of EU/Russian relations.



[edit on 2-3-2010 by Mdv2]

Originally posted by Dermo
This has created some internal EU problems between Ex Eastern Bloc states and France..

And what are the Eastern European states bringing to the EU? Who are they to criticize France or Germany? In end France benefits from the deal with Russia, and economically the EU as a whole is better off as well. Eastern European members have not made a strong case against deals with Russia, because there is no case to make, so France doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

Originally posted by Dermo
And even though the official EU policy os one of friendship with Russia.. NATO separates the EU in security matters and partners that group with the US so its a big change in policy.. It shows a massive shift in how the main EU powers are now looking at the world.

EU is about economic and social matters, and it should stay that way - NATO's politics and policy should not stand in the way of economic progress. Many EU politicians have been trying to distance their decision making from NATO, and many Western European countries aren't thrilled about NATO's continued Eastward expansion and overall strategic objectives.

Originally posted by Dermo
It is a good move by the French IMO, the Germans will back them and therefore all of Western Europe apart from the UK probably. Eastern Europe will be a bit colder to the idea because of the whole Communism thing.

The whole "Communism thing" ended almost 20 years ago. If Eastern Europian countries cannot get with the times, then they have no one to blame but themselves. Either way they need the EU far more than the EU needs them.

Originally posted by Dermo
It's also bound to annoy the US a bit but I don't think the French administration has ever really listened to the US in foreign policy matters anyway.

I think the priorities of the US are gradually starting to change. The US should be realizing by now that the Cold War and associated threats are over as far as Western European countries are concerned, and they will do what is best for them regardless of how the US feels about it. The US may be annoyed with their actions, but whining about it isn't going to change anything.

Originally posted by Dermo
Im not a big fan of the visa free travel for Ruskies through the EU until they can at least double their average yearly income per capita.

There won't be visa free travel, and that is not because of the income per capita. There are EU members with lower income per capita than Russia. Easing the travel requirements would be beneficial to everyone though. There are also considerations to create a similar arrangement to visa free travel with Kaliningrad, which is Russia's enclave surrounded by EU members. Russia plans to make Kaliningrad a free trade zone, which could help economies on both sides.

[edit on 2-3-2010 by maloy]

Originally posted by Mdv2
Obviously, the US remains the EU's most important ally, but not at the expense of EU/Russian relations.

Yea, but try and explain this to a large amount of Americans on this site and watch the argument that unfurls.. Creating these types of friendships shows 'Weakness' apparently..

I think this really shows a turn in internal foreign policy towards creating a balance in the Northern hemisphere. If the EU and Russia become partners in a similar way to the EU/US partnership, the emerging Asian powers will not be so hard to to tame.. While the US likes to force and the EU likes to coerce.. Russia already has a working relationship with China in particular.

I always find it interesting to find out how these things play out. Pity they take so long lol.

I know that my own country (the Netherlands), Germany, Italy and France have strong relations with Russia and that, apart from the former East bloc and the UK, most other countries do indeed wish to build a constructive relationship with Russia.

I wonder what the official EU position will be once the defense pacts are up and running..

Originally posted by maloy
I think the priorities of the US are gradually starting to change.

It is, I think its mainly because none of the big players in Europe are listening to it in regards Russia anymore. The only problem is NATO and the US missile shields/wargames on the Russian borders lol - If that isn't a slap in the face for Russia, I don't know what is.

I dont believe the 'building trust & security' aspect has anything to do with it. Its all about the gas. I expect there will be political & economic consequences for France as a result of annoying the USA again, which just goes to show how important that gas really is.
The 'security' aspect is the window-dressing. That'll be the angle that the French push when NATO members start their US encouraged bashing. Personally, I think that the EU would get more out of a close relationship with Russia (including cooperation on matters of defence) than we get out of NATO. Afterall, what are we getting? Dragged into expensive wars & encouraged to buy more weapons... many of which, coincidently, are American made. To fight whom?

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
I dont believe the 'building trust & security' aspect has anything to do with it. Its all about the gas. I expect there will be political & economic consequences for France as a result of annoying the USA again, which just goes to show how important that gas really is.

Of course it is exclusively in the short term.. But France giving Russia Amphibious troop deployers is completely separate to the Gas deal with Gazprom.. If there were any notions that Russia could use these against EU states or EU allies, then they would not be supplied.

The fact is that Germany and France with the silenced backing of multiple other states have been talking about a security deal with Russia for a couple of years. And the only REAL way to get one is at the EU level.

The problem is that the US has a policy of destabilization in regards that relationship.. because if a major security pact emerged and the US was not a part of it, the US would lose much of its dominance as a result of the new force being able to deploy Warships in both the Pacific and Atlantic at the drop of a hat.. Whereas now, the US is the only body capable of doing so. So in order to stop that from happening, there is, at a diplomatic and military level, attempts to block it or portray Russia as the enemy.

reply to post by Dermo I agree with everything you posted except about the gas & ship deals not being linked. The French had already agreed to sell 1 Mistral a couple of weeks ago. Now they agree to the 4 the Russians actually want &, lo & behold, the gas deal goes through as well!
If I've got something you want & you've got something I want, the solution is obvious, isn't it? Obviously, nobody is going to come out & say so, because these are supposedly private companies, but they are also strategically important issues: the diplomats would have hammered out a deal. Just the same as the UK govt supports BAe Systems, or the US govt supports Boeing.

France24 wasn't quite so happy about the uturn in French policy.. They where not advocating blocking the sale ect, but that it was a big jump to make in such a short space of time.

They were wondering if this was not France attempting to catch up to the German relationship with Russia, and more based on fearing of being left behind that one of true co-operation..

It is a valid point, even tho the outcome is good for all concerned.

I do have a few unresolved issues around how some are playing the UKs standing in this and that posters here have mentioned the UK as a negative light, when the UK, from my understanding is responsible for 10% of the total Foreign investment in Russia (down from 15%), and that investment is still (again as my understanding goes) double that of France.

So I see this move/sales and deals more to improve the bilateral ties with France than a put down of any Eastern Block country or indeed the UK.

Personally I have no issues with Russia, we have had a long relationship both in butting heads and working together with the Russians, which I am sure will continue into the future.


[edit on 3/3/10 by thoughtsfull]

WW1 scenario redux?

I'm kidding.

Anyway the more relations europe and Russia have, the better.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
They were wondering if this was not France attempting to catch up to the German relationship with Russia, and more based on fearing of being left behind that one of true co-operation..

Where Germany goes, France follows and visa versa.. they might as well be the same country at this stage.

posters here have mentioned the UK as a negative light,

Its mainly that the UK is the biggest objector to Security operations between EU states and Russia.. Also that the UK supports NATO & the US and their military policies over any kind of security pact with Russia.

Its been reported several times, ill find a couple of links when I get a chance.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
The French had already agreed to sell 1 Mistral a couple of weeks ago. Now they agree to the 4 the Russians actually want &, lo & behold, the gas deal goes through as well!

Good point, very possible, especially with the intimate relationship the French government has with its larger corporations.



[edit on 3/3/10 by Dermo]

reply to post by Dermo


No need, just that the usual British way of doing completly the opposit things at the same time

What I was trying to point out was that France is being portraid one way for working with the Russians, while Britain, as one of Russias top external investors is not.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
I do have a few unresolved issues around how some are playing the UKs standing in this and that posters here have mentioned the UK as a negative light, when the UK, from my understanding is responsible for 10% of the total Foreign investment in Russia (down from 15%), and that investment is still (again as my understanding goes) double that of France.

Personally, I consider the official British stance on Russia to be negative, which is partly related to the strong alliance that the US and the UK have. As long as US-Russian relations remain cold, I believe that the UK will continue to share the (negative) American stance on Russia. Perhaps not as strongly, but definitely not as warm as many other European countries.

This has no relation to British investment in Russia. It is not the British people who share this official stance per se.


[edit on 3-3-2010 by Mdv2]

reply to post by Mdv2


I do understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent, particularly the contradictory nature of the beast..

However what I was trying to get across if that Britian Gov had serious issues with Russia then British investment would be difficult/not encouraged and would be investment on par with other nations rather than near the top..

Having worked across the EMEA some nations are easier to work with than others, some impossbile, some really simple, gov restrictions, red tape and all manner of bloody mindedness help to define the direction of investment from country a to country b.

Fundementally at that level, Gov's do impact the direction of investment abroad.. and this is where I am coming from.. and the French are (from my understanding) making it easier for French companies to invest in Russia (which is very good)

My premise is *IF* it is easier for a British company to invest in Russia than a French company, ignoring all the nice fluffy words or all the harsh words spoken, which nation has the better relationship with Russia???

Anyway, that's a side issue.. I've been chatting along these lines with my French collegues and they are of mixed emotions, Not about the sale but about the speed in which their Gov has done a policy uTurn, which is the intersting aspect of this that seems to be neglected.

[edit on 3/3/10 by thoughtsfull]

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by Dermo
This has created some internal EU problems between Ex Eastern Bloc states and France..

And what are the Eastern European states bringing to the EU? Who are they to criticize France or Germany? In end France benefits from the deal with Russia, and economically the EU as a whole is better off as well. Eastern European members have not made a strong case against deals with Russia, because there is no case to make, so France doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

Originally posted by maloy Either way they need the EU far more than the EU needs them.

I don't think you are a citizen of one of the EU states as it seems your understanding of the european union is very limited and it will be a shame if a eu citizen is not able to understand what is the eu truly all about

Yes France and Germany are maybe the most important members but their plans couldn't be put in action without other members.
The integration in eu procedure is long and it implies many measures , just because they can apply their well thought of plans upon integration of a new member

There are a lot of measures that are taken in each new member state , measures that affect most people in a direct manner. Did you know for example that the eastern states that are new members are thought of markets for products from the west

They impose all kind of measures , all kinds of laws to stop production in certain activities and people to consume only western products.
How is that when you read you phrase

Originally posted by maloy Either way they need the EU far more than the EU needs them.

, who needs who now?
Or did you thought for a minute that all those funds , all the money that comes in are without purpose?
The money needs to be payed back and with an interest maybe twice as much than your usual credit, enslaving the people of the respective state. Have you ever thought of that?
Do you think the big powers in EU don't benefit the money? Big members act like shark loaners and you should understand that , especially if you are a member of EU

Do you think that France agriculture would have worked this fine is measures against small , mid sized or even big entrepreneurs in agriculture from new member EU states wouldn't have been taken? This resulted in people abandoning their life occupation and concentrating on something else, like working in a german factory for example recently opened

Of course there were some granted loans but it was everything thought of first very well. Directing the money toward fields that are unrelated to what big members make their money from , another way of redirecting people towards other activities and leaving the road open for big players.


You haven't think twice before saying that the EU doesn't need ex sovietic states ... and i say it was almost a stupidity saying that , and it will be a shame if it's coming from a citizen of EU...

EU would have been nothing without small member states and remember that.

Anyway i was just wanted to clarify that

And i don't see any tensions between eastern members of UE and France because of that deal with ships , it is just media blowing it out of proportions .
Media from USA covers this story when probably they should be concentrating on something else, in Europe nobody really cares about this deal , on the contrary many think it's a good move as we all know how a lot EU states depend on the gas from Russia and it will be a long time until this will change
The last thing most countries want is another gas crisis like it happened before , considering the already feed up with BS population and the dramatic financial situation for most citizens

The French are the traitor's of history and they are living up to it again. When we will learn how many times can they do it and then we forgive them because they are so weak? I say this should be the last time and if the ever screw their allies again we leave them to rot. It is a country made up of cowards and appeasers. When will the French be a nation of honor? I say never.


And just to clarify they are not all cowards just 99% of them.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
The French are the traitor's of history and they are living up to it again. When we will learn how many times can they do it and then we forgive them because they are so weak? I say this should be the last time and if the ever screw their allies again we leave them to rot. It is a country made up of cowards and appeasers. When will the French be a nation of honor? I say never.


And just to clarify they are not all cowards just 99% of them.

Is your ex french?

reply to post by charlie_the_loafer


I am talking mostly about the men of France. History is pretty clear in this area. And they seem to be following in their father's footsteps once again. They will fire on their allies and run when given the chance.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
The French are the traitor's of history and they are living up to it again. When we will learn how many times can they do it and then we forgive them because they are so weak? I say this should be the last time and if the ever screw their allies again we leave them to rot. It is a country made up of cowards and appeasers. When will the French be a nation of honor? I say never.


And just to clarify they are not all cowards just 99% of them.

The bigot is back

The French are some of the nicest and cultured people on the planet.. And whom exactly are they betraying? The US?

France couldn't care less about the US in international relations - And do you know why? Because they aren't afraid of it.. They only seem to back up the US when its a Pan European consensus in order to support their European partners.

I think thats what pisses off Americans like you the most about France.. Because they see you to be as insignificant as you see them lol.

Its a funny argument to watch TBH.. Because its usually Americans or Brits complaining about them even though they have no idea why - and the French don't care enough about the whole thing to bother even mentioning you guys - they complain about the Brits, but only in jest..

And what you just said doesn't make any sense at all and could easily be directed back at your own country.

They will fire on their allies and run when given the chance.

You do realize that most of the EU supports this yea? Tight relations with Russia is beneficial for everyone.. Even.. God Forbid.. The United States..

Even though, who would the massive enemy be then? China I suppose.