US Immigration Policy Wrong?

reply to post by SLAYER69


You did not answer my question. Is it because you can't answer it, don't want to answer it or care not about what would happen to the children if we rounded up all the undocumented people in the United States?

Claiming something is "for the children", or "what about the children" is simply code for "LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE WE GIVE IT TO YOU PRISON STYLE".

Tough decisions need to be made. Better they made made now, as opposed to even more difficult decisions later.

The answer to your question is simple: The kids either go into foster care, or back to Mexico (or their parents native country) with them.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by brainwrek]

Originally posted by brainwrek
Claiming something is "for the children", or "what about the children" is simply code for "LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE WE GIVE IT TO YOU PRISON STYLE".

Tough decisions need to be made. Better they made made now, as opposed to even more difficult decisions later.

This still won't change the fact we will be left with the burden of taking care of their children. Why not allow those who are here citizenship and enforce our labor laws? That is an idea I could get behind because they are integrated into the system. They would have to pay taxes, this would support our whole infrastructure.

It is also important to note that public assistance and other social works projects are a small fraction of the total amount we spend on wars and maintaining our empire around the world. All the while our country is going down the drain in so many respects.

Difficult decisions later? I think we are way, way past that point. Deporting millions upon millions of people would have such a drastic affect I don't think you realize the full implications. Yet alone, what's stopping them from coming back?

I know through the grape vine an individual who has been deported 3 times, yet he just comes right back. Yea that will work.



[edit on 13-2-2010 by oconnection]

reply to post by oconnection


Their kids should be sent home their parents can take care of them there. The anchor baby/family reunification policy has to be the first step in reforming this policy. If you don't think there are women who are pregnant who come over the border with the explicit purpose to have a baby in the US and have their other 6 kids and husband brought over via the family unification laws, you're kidding yourself.

Ship their parents home send the kids with them. If due to the current law the child is a citizen the parents either take them home with them or they stay and go into the foster care system.

Right now Mexicans are going home. Theres no work and they're picking up and going home. I have a friend who is picking up his family and moving home. His daughter is 23 and has a couple of kids and she is going with them. They have a friend with a house in El Paso which they will declare as their legal residence. She'll come over the border to collect her welfare and WIC and food stamps and go back home. If she needs to see a doctor, she'll just hop on over and go to emergency room. He will pointedly tell you that when the kids are old enough to go to school she'll move back because the schools in that part of Mexico are not very good.

He's been here for 20 years illegally. He's a good guy. As soon as the economy gets rough he leaves and goes home because he is only taking what he can get out of the US. He views both countries as fungible. Where ever it is easier for him, thats where he's going.

Originally posted by oconnection
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You did not answer my question. Is it because you can't answer it, don't want to answer it or care not about what would happen to the children if we rounded up all the undocumented people in the United States?

Jordon Maxwell has a pretty good view of that.

I say close the border and do a thorough "Inventory" I mean "census". Then once we know how many "Employees the Corporation has" I mean how many people we have the "Government can make them all Citizens" then they can all be issued their "Employee" number I mean "Their Social Security" numbers so they can pay their fair share of "Dues" I mean "Taxes."

I feel for the conditions in the third world, and I recgonize the incentive to do whatever is neccesary for a living wage. I also understand that this immigration invasion is a partial, or even complete result of actions by Al Gore, Bill CLinton and the Congress. Passing NAFTA, and the propping up of "neo liberal" friendly regimes are two of the larger culprits. Both of which are connected with US policies.
It is untenable for a bankrupt state to spent the labor of its' working citizens to subsidise non-citizens. Those who don't pay most taxes cannot have access to programs funded by "legal" taxation. Not that they cannot on any argument other than the common sense one. It is only a finite amount of time before the programs cost more than the taxpayer can afford. It in evitably leads to the destruction of the whole system. Illegal immigration drives up health care, drives up education, and drives down wages. I see it everyday. Don't get me wrong these people have as much as right to get a slice of prosperity as anyone, but if that costs our prosperity as a nation I have to object.
I feel human sympathy for my fellow human beings, and maybe I should concede my standard of living to help someone in need. Lets say that I recgonize that my health care costs are gonna rise, my taxtions gonna rise for the bigger schools, and my wages are gonna stay stagnant. I conceded these things in order to allow some humans from someother country have enough to eat, and enough stability to live. Is it worth it? I don't know. Maybe a better man might say yes. All I know that someone aught to stand for keepin our nation in runnin order, and if that means gettin a heart of stone so be it.

illegal aliens use their children as a tool and everyone Knows it ...
Shame on them; where's their diginity?
Look around; any mexican woman (I say mexican because they are the majority) you see is either pregnant and or already have a parade of anchors trailing behind, I see them in the market every time I go, paying with their food stamps.
Deport illegal aliens.
Children need to be with their parents and are their responsability, so where ever the parents go, so do the kids.
No foster care on our tax dollars plus it's mean to seperate them.

Send the kids home With their parents where they belong -

Originally posted by oconnection

Originally posted by brainwrek
Claiming something is "for the children", or "what about the children" is simply code for "LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE WE GIVE IT TO YOU PRISON STYLE".

Tough decisions need to be made. Better they made made now, as opposed to even more difficult decisions later.

This still won't change the fact we will be left with the burden of taking care of their children. Why not allow those who are here citizenship and enforce our labor laws? That is an idea I could get behind because they are integrated into the system. They would have to pay taxes, this would support our whole infrastructure.

It is also important to note that public assistance and other social works projects are a small fraction of the total amount we spend on wars and maintaining our empire around the world. All the while our country is going down the drain in so many respects.

Difficult decisions later? I think we are way, way past that point. Deporting millions upon millions of people would have such a drastic affect I don't think you realize the full implications. Yet alone, what's stopping them from coming back?

I know through the grape vine an individual who has been deported 3 times, yet he just comes right back. Yea that will work.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by oconnection]

I envy you for speaking your mind against many who oppose your view.

I view your opinions as good moral, being i share your thoughts, I mean I would do the same means if I were in an illegal immigrants situation. Us americans are born into a life we take for granted and only see the struggling lives of illegals as best as the camera lens, but it's much different in their shoes, they can settle for less cause they've visited the point where they receive nothing. I would say intergrate the illegals we have now and impose taxes as them as quickly as possible so everyone does their part, and then make legal immigration a faster, easier process, clearly examining someone's true reasons for being here (keeping out drug cartels and terrorists) and then through that they can enter. Becoming a citizen ship be free, as many do not have the means to even get here legally. I deepy envy your thoughts.

I, too, watched that episode, when it originally aired.

My thoughts. Which go back aways.

When Ronald Reagan campaigned for POTUS, his party promised to stop the inflation of the Democratic years. One of the ways to stop a boiling economy is to lower workers' wages. One of the first things RR did was to strike at the striking air traffic controllers, signaling the beginning of anti-unionism. Unions had helped ALL American workers enjoy wages/benefits to accommodate an increasingly higher standard of living (middle class).

America's low intensity conflicts (wars) in 1980s Central America helped drive citizens northward to America. I can remember an active Border Patrol prior to the early 1980s. After that, undocumented workers were de facto allowed to enter the workforce, helping to drive down wages. The party of Big Business was in power and in control. The 1980s Amnesty Bill brought amnesty for workers but employer sanctions were not enforced.

Clinton's NAFTA, which sounded good, had a dark side...maquiladores springing up just across the border, drawing Mexican workers northward. There had always been workers/citizens commuting daily at shared border towns, but now the Mexican populations swelled.

With the anti-unionism ongoing in the US, traditional unionized jobs increasingly went to non-unionized/non-documented workers. Wages fell to ever increasing lows. More and more jobs were becoming jobs "Americans wouldn't do".

I have friends/family members who were granted legal residence as Cuban refugees or whose families followed the legalities and costs to come north from Mexico or elsewhere around the globe years ago. IMO, no, we cannot break up families with minor children who are citizens, but must, once again, offer an amnesty program. Also, I believe citizenship of children should come through the citizenship of parents, not place of birth.

But, the burden must continue to be on employers hiring illegal workers. As a nation, we have the right to say who is/is not a legal resident...and we have done that. The trouble comes when there is no enforcement., or no will to enforce...all in the name of the interchangeability of workers willing to work for less.

Originally posted by oconnection
I realize I'm probably going to take a lot of flack for posting this but I do not care. Everyone who is against this thread so far has the same mentality which is missing a key point.

So, of the 2 billion people living in standards below those of the US "poverty" level, we should just bring them over, make them feel "at home," and pick up their tab. How many do you want?

You seem to be blaming immigrants for being so pour that they can't afford to immigrate legally. I believe most would do it legally if they could afford it.

Cost of citizenship is minimal. Assimilation has a price many immigrants are unwilling, regardless of $$$, to pay. When you consider that many Mexican aliens have paid 'coyotes' upwards of $10,000 for the price of passage, your argument falls short.

If you were faced with the same situation you would probably do the same.

I know! Tell your boss tomorrow you know someone who will work twice your hours for 50% of your pay. Then, go to the Home Depot, or the Mexican Consulate and give them your boss's address and let them earn a fair living. Hell, you could even let them use your social security number instead of some unwitting person's.

Why not allow for an easier avenue, ie less expensive, to become a citizen?

You do not even know the cost of naturalization. It is NOT expensive compared to the cost of living in the "underground." Cost is not the impediment to citizenship. The largest impediment is WILL. Most illegals DO NOT WANT to give up their heritage or become assimilated into US society.

I have lived, loved, studied and worked with them all my life. My first father- and mother-in-law were not citizens, did not want to be citizens, and felt greater ties to their homelands than the US. AS did their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and cousins.

Your fantasy world needs to catch up with reality before you weep all over their own, self-imposed, predicaments.

Everyone complains about these factors but they fail to see the underlining issue that immigrants want to become citizens but it's extremely difficult.

No, it is not. It requires application, learning English, and civics.
Taking advantage of a compassionate neighbor while refusing to make any type of reciprocal commitment is difficult. To those with a conscience.

Why is that immigrants risk there lives to cross the boarder? Do they do it for fun? Or do they do it because they literally have nothing to loose anyways?

They do it because it is easy, relatively risk-free, and very rewarding. The stereotype of people in rags trudging across a desert is what you get from the MSM. Most illegals just walk, ride or drive across the International Bridge, and do not go back. You live in a fantasy world.

I really don't want to be forced to argue, I understand it may be hard for people to see.

There are none so blind as he who will not see. Open your eyes and see what's really going on around you.

Do you really believe that 10 million people crossed a desert, tried but couldn't afford naturalization, and are forced to live some sub-standard life because our immigration laws won't let them do otherwise?

How pathetic.

jw

[edit on 15-2-2010 by jdub297]

reply to post by dolphinfan

It does not help that there are Mexicans who have been here for a decade or more who do not speak English and make no attempt to assimilate into this country.

You will be surprised how many of them are legal residents. BTW, the op mentioned Cuban but you made it a Mexican thing. Let's say 60% are Mexicans, where do you stand on the other 40% who aren't Mexicans.

Put troops on the Mexican border,

Guess the Southern border is the only way in

reply to post by SLAYER69

"Their Social Security" numbers so they can pay their fair share of "Dues" I mean "Taxes."

Ask Uncle Sam about its earnings suspense file.

Ask the IRS why they came up with the ITIN number.

Ask anyone who has lost a family member due to an action by an illegal immigrant how they feel. Ask the elderly or anyone else who cannot get help with their medical bills because they make a few lousy dollars over the poverty line how they feel. Ask the millions of un-employed people about to lose their unemployment benefits, or perhaps the people in tent cities in the middle of winter who are suffering and hungry.

It isn't that I don't have compassion for those less fortunate that I don't believe in amnesty. It is because we have too many people suffering here who are legal citizens that have worked their butts off their entire lives and what help are they getting? All the while an illegal comes here and has things handed to them.

It costs these supposedly 'poor' people a lot of money for passage, false documents etc. With people coming through illegally, we are also allowing the pedophiles, gang members, rapists and murders to come in. Crimes have increased and even in quiet 'safe' neighborhoods. No one should have to be afraid to leave their own front doors. As others have said, we have had enough.

reply to post by Night Star

It isn't that I don't have compassion for those less fortunate that I don't believe in amnesty. It is because we have too many people suffering here who are legal citizens that have worked their butts off their entire lives and what help are they getting? All the while an illegal comes here and has things handed to them.

Easy to blame illegals. What about all the other Americans WHO HAVEN"T worked their butts off and are milking the system?

Guess it is OK to support them since they are Americans.

It costs these supposedly 'poor' people a lot of money for passage, false documents etc. With people coming through illegally, we are also allowing the pedophiles, gang members, rapists and murders to come in. Crimes have increased and even in quiet 'safe' neighborhoods. No one should have to be afraid to leave their own front doors. As others have said, we have had enough.

Uh, crime is reported to be down.

U.S. law enforcement agencies are reporting a surprising drop in crime last year, with homicide rates in some major cities plunging to levels not seen in four decades, despite a deep and prolonged recession.

www.reuters.com...

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by Night Star

 

It isn't that I don't have compassion for those less fortunate that I don't believe in amnesty. It is because we have too many people suffering here who are legal citizens that have worked their butts off their entire lives and what help are they getting? All the while an illegal comes here and has things handed to them.

Easy to blame illegals. What about all the other Americans WHO HAVEN"T worked their butts off and are milking the system?

Guess it is OK to support them since they are Americans.

It costs these supposedly 'poor' people a lot of money for passage, false documents etc. With people coming through illegally, we are also allowing the pedophiles, gang members, rapists and murders to come in. Crimes have increased and even in quiet 'safe' neighborhoods. No one should have to be afraid to leave their own front doors. As others have said, we have had enough.

Uh, crime is reported to be down.

U.S. law enforcement agencies are reporting a surprising drop in crime last year, with homicide rates in some major cities plunging to levels not seen in four decades, despite a deep and prolonged recession.

www.reuters.com...

Most of the illegals that I know personally are milking the sytem. It doesn't make it right if an American does it.

With the increase in illegals in my state we have seen more crime not less. Guess it depends where you live.

Originally posted by jdub297

So, of the 2 billion people living in standards below those of the US "poverty" level, we should just bring them over, make them feel "at home," and pick up their tab. How many do you want?

I never said we should pick their tab, I simply see an unmoral situation when I see one. Instead I believe we should be more compassionate to our neighbors, and allow an easier avenue for those who wish to work and/or become a citizen.

You see, we shouldn't have to pick up their tab and it shouldn't have to be this way. The way I see it is their is an obvious need for a hard working Mexican or other immigrants who will do the work most won't. If their wasn't a need, then they wouldn't find work under the table.

Another concern is the exploitation that occurs to immigrants. They have no rights, their is no workers compensation, no disability, and no minimum wage. One way to fight illegal immigration is crack down on businesses that exploit the immigrant.

At the same time I believe we should uphold our laws, I feel it's morally right to integrate those who are here. Not only would it be moral, it would help take in taxes.

Cost of citizenship is minimal. Assimilation has a price many immigrants are unwilling, regardless of $$$, to pay. When you consider that many Mexican aliens have paid 'coyotes' upwards of $10,000 for the price of passage, your argument falls short.

I doubt that is the average cost of smuggling a person across the boarder. Care to share some evidence that this is the normal cost?

I know! Tell your boss tomorrow you know someone who will work twice your hours for 50% of your pay. Then, go to the Home Depot, or the Mexican Consulate and give them your boss's address and let them earn a fair living. Hell, you could even let them use your social security number instead of some unwitting person's.

This actually happens without me informing anyone, it's called outsourcing. Outsourcing is troubling, we seem to have some similar concerns just with a different idea of solving the problem.

You do not even know the cost of naturalization. It is NOT expensive compared to the cost of living in the "underground." Cost is not the impediment to citizenship. The largest impediment is WILL. Most illegals DO NOT WANT to give up their heritage or become assimilated into US society.

Really, all those immigrants are just hording their money. Especially when they come from extreme poverty, they are really stuffing their hundreds under the mattress. Seems you know a lot of illegals and have a great understanding of what they go through. Wow you seem to have all the answers.

I have lived, loved, studied and worked with them all my life. My first father- and mother-in-law were not citizens, did not want to be citizens, and felt greater ties to their homelands than the US. AS did their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles and cousins.

Your fantasy world needs to catch up with reality before you weep all over their own, self-imposed, predicaments.

I'm glad you have feelings, would of never known unless you told me, thanks!

Talk to the Irish immigrant. a German immigrant, a Chinese immigrant, or fill in the blank. You will often find a certain amount of pride and love for their old home land. This is natural and occurs all the time. Not just with the Mexican.

I believe you are stereotyping and that kinda sounds like you are the one who is living in a fantasy world. To say all immigrants don't want to assimilate is easily proved as a stereotype and can safely say most wish to be a citizen.

But nice try, this is a typical tactic, attack the person instead of providing any material backing up your claims. These attacks sometimes seem rather cookie cutter.

Why is that immigrants risk there lives to cross the boarder? Do they do it for fun? Or do they do it because they literally have nothing to loose anyways?

They do it because it is easy, relatively risk-free, and very rewarding. The stereotype of people in rags trudging across a desert is what you get from the MSM. Most illegals just walk, ride or drive across the International Bridge, and do not go back. You live in a fantasy world.

Yea 3 days through the desert is an easy trip. Try it your self then talk. Most illegals walk probably because they do not own cars. Did you ever consider that idea?

It's interesting how I supposedly live in a fantasy world yet I can point to obvious holes in your argument.

There are none so blind as he who will not see. Open your eyes and see what's really going on around you.

Ok we are going to start quoting famous quotes, here's one for you:

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

How pathetic.

What is really pathetic is how you keep on insisting in the attempt to insult me. Move along troll.


[edit on 15-2-2010 by oconnection]

I envy you for speaking your mind against many who oppose your view.

It's nice to know a few hold a similar view around these parts. =)

I did not post this thread in hopes I'd win a popularity contest. Instead I hope to offer a little more diverse opinion.

All too often on these boards we hear one side of the story with out considering the other side when it comes to immigration.

Denying ignorance is considering both sides of the argument and coming to terms with both sides then forming your opinion, at least in my view.

Sometimes one will be on one end of the extreme, but sometimes their is a need for balance and you meet somewhere in the middle.

Thank you for your kind words and support.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by oconnection]

With the increase in illegals in my state we have seen more crime not less. Guess it depends where you live.

Maybe substitute the word illegal and add in desperate people and you may gain a different perspective.

Crime is bread often times from those who are desperate and see no other way.

I feel the pain for people who are in need, don`t get me wrong. I watched a documentary a few yrars back(forget the name) it told of the over population in mexico city.(14 million I believe it was) It was mentioned they do not use birth control due to religion. If that be the case it seems there is not enough work, food housing, and jobs to support them. I saw a lady who was celebrating her 63rd child. come on!!!!!!!
Now here in the US we do not have enough jobs and resourses for our own. So if we let them openly come into this country and continue with thier way of living its just a matter of time(dramatically speaking) that we will eventually have the same problem. What do we do then?!!!!!!!!!!
And not all that come over are exactly law abiding citizens. I don`t blame them for trying. You shouldn`t blame me for not wanting them here!!

Rich countries which allow immigrants from poorer countries "falsely believing they're doing the world a favor". I'm not sure if that belief really is false. I know plenty of people who came West either temporarily or permanently in search of better-paying work. Letting them in was definitely a favor to them as well as to their parents and other relatives back home whom they sent money. That's why immigration has been described as "the greatest anti-poverty campaign the world has ever known" - though I'm not entirely sure I buy that, the end of central economic planning in Eastern Europe seems to have been even more effective.

Immigration may be vastly more effective at making people less poor than other forms of government welfare, but effective doesn't mean free. Someone paying the cost to make immigrants lives' better, so who is it? Ignoring for the moment clear charity cases, such as refugees from war, famine, natural disasters and plague, as well as lazy immigrants who plan to live off welfare (who are another matter altogether), I will focus on who pays to enrich those who migrate seeking better work. It's mainly the people with whom they compete for jobs who find themselves with more competition and therefore find their opportunities and wages shrinking.

These people are, of course, at the low end of the labor market. If you've got real skills and aren't threatened by unemployment, there's not much motivation to seek your fortunes so far away, so the bulk of immigration (barring refugees from war, famine, plague etc.) will be low-skill or at least seeking mainly low-skill work in their new homeland. So the people paying for immigration are, mainly, the lazy and stupid, as well as teenagers just entering the workforce and university students doing part-time work.

Sure, the West's lazy and stupid are richer than the immigrants they (unwillingly) help, but does that mean they should be paying the cost? That's not an easy moral question, even though I expect there's not a lot of sympathy for the lazy and stupid among our members. Sympathy aside, though this very much is their business. I therefore propose that laws setting any country's immigration policies should be set by referendum in which anyone with above-average intelligence, higher education or a decent-paying job not be allowed to vote. These decisions, like all political decisions, are currently up to our elites who may be a lot of things, but they are both more intelligent and harder-working than the average person. That makes them completely unqualified to decide in this case. I'm not generally in favor of democracy and voting, but in cases where we only want stupid and lazy people to have a say it should work just fine.

(Satire)