Are you really awake or just comfortable with believing that you are?

A person's reasons to believe that she has awakened to the "real" world are predicated upon categories of thought and action which developed while in the "unreal" Matrix. But if the experiences of the Matrix cannot be believed, then those categories of thought and action are no longer reliable - and, as such, are an inadequate basis upon which one can say that they now know what the "real" world is.

This, from an article dealing with The Matrix and Skepticism is very thought provoking and is a very important thing to think about when proclaiming that you know more than “the sheeple”. It is for this reason that I despise the use of that term and others like it. How do you know, really know, that you’ve found the truth? The fact is that you don’t really know and are just comfortable with thinking that you do.

Obviously, this thread is not a discussion of The Matrix movie but uses it as an example of the arrogance of some here.

Substitute the name “Morpheus” with “The Awakened”, or whatever term you choose to identify yourself with, and think about this: Believing Morpheus takes away our reasons to believe Morpheus in this context:

In other words, if we wake up and Morpheus tells us that the Matrix has been feeding us lies all our lives, then we really don't have any firm basis upon which we can conclude that Morpheus must be telling us the truth. Believing Morpheus takes away our reasons to believe Morpheus: it's a self-refuting belief. This is a subtle, but important point. If a we are going to be able to make our way in the "real" world at all, there have to be a whole lot more similarities between it and the Matrix in which we grew up than we realize - but if the "real" world is just a meta-simulation for above-average rebellious minds, then those similarities would only be natural.

Ah, but the attraction of radical skepticism is powerful. I keep being drawn to the scene near the end when Neo is talking to the Architect and the walls around the room frame Neo with multiple images of himself on monitors. Behind the image of Neo on each of the monitors are more banks of monitors with more images of Neo. Twice through the conversation we focus in on one of those images, move through the screen, and now that is the "real" Neo speaking. Worlds within worlds within worlds.

If the Matrix is a computer simulation that exists within a larger simulation that encompasses Zion, what about the world beyond that? And the world beyond that? Just how deep does the rabbit hole actually go? Once we reject the truth of one utterly convincing reality, we are compelled to doubt and question the reality of any other world presented to us as being "real." There might not be an end to the rabbit hole at all - perhaps that is a message of The Matrix: no matter how deep we delve, we'll never reach an end of illusions, questions, and doubts.

[edit on 6/2/2010 by Iamonlyhuman]

Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

I think such declarations as a sign of hubris and a mind firmly closed.


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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

I think such declarations as a sign of hubris and a mind firmly closed.

 

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Ah, ok... I see, an open mind requires you not think about things like this then?

Thanks for making my point for me and showcasing the arrogance of it all.

[edit on 6/2/2010 by Iamonlyhuman]

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


I often have pondered if when I go to sleep every night if indeed I am actually waking up when I think I go to sleep every night.

Whenever I wake up in the morning to a bright new sun, I am actually going to sleep in my other reality. Somehow the Sun is the trigger that signals new day each and every day. Night signals and end to day time and time to sleep and rest the body.

A reverse world where the whole time I think I am awake and conscious, I am actually dreaming.

At night when I go to sleep, I actually wake up from my dream and in such a world, there is a duality to existence no matter whether you are a day person or a night person.

What is up is down and what is down could be up. Yes, I know this is probably just a weird thought but I just had to share it. Thanks for the posting.

Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Um no. Requires that you constantly question. Not stop at a point and declare yourself in the know or awake.


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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

Um no. Requires that you constantly question. Not stop at a point and declare yourself in the know or awake.

 

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Which is exactly what I am doing. And yet, I am proclaimed "mind firmly closed".

Hmmm...

[edit on 6/2/2010 by Iamonlyhuman]

Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

No. You are being overly defensive about a comment that was in agreement with your premise and not aimed at you anyway..... :dwn:


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reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


That sounds like a declaration.
So your answer to the OP is hubris and close minded.

To the OP- you raise some great points.
I think it is interesting to note that I have noticed that many, myself included, people will get their "reality" from virtual settings(like websites, popular culture, and science fiction or conspiracy documentaries). We then use these virtual sources and settings to question and criticize the reality we normally dwell in, relegating that to "fiction" whilst accepting the virtual world as being real, the source of truth and the explainer of our existence.
This creates a real juxtaposition, I have found, that can sometimes be confusing and difficult to quantify.
Because once you relegate the real world to a lie, and entrust our "awakened" self to these virtual worlds or sources it can become hard to distinguish between the real world(that is now a lie if you claim to be awake) and the virtual sources(that in many cases cannot be verified) that we use to support our "awakened" state.

For me personally, a great example was the Zeitgeist Movies.
For days after I walked around looking at the world like it was a bad dream. I looked at everything through the eyes of the movies narrator.
I found it difficult to resolve the explanations and the conclusions arrived at in the Movies with what I was actually experiencing.
It as not until I endeavored to watch them multiple times and research the claims, that I realized that the truth was much more entwined between the two.

So I think you have some great points in the OP.

Reply to post by Derised Emanresu

Too bad it wasn't. But understand you have decided what you believe is the truth of the matter so I won't argue except to say good attempt at deflection.


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Interesting thread. I am a firm believer in the yin yang polarity. This too, I feel, extends into the conscious and subconscious. I feel over the years civilization has dumbed down their subconscious or connection to the spiritual world/ mysteries.

No where else is this connection more exemplified IMO than within the Australian aborigine culture. I feel their interpretation of their surroundings and subconscious understanding most resembles what you are getting at with your post. I snipped a few bits from a page I linked that gives some insight into their understanding of the world in which they live. I feel it smacks with what you are exploring. I wish there were some Aussie elders on ATS. Maybe some Aussie ATS'ers can shed light on some of this.



.....The separation of tribes and the division provided by the environment led to differences in views about the nature of human life and death, and the part dreams played. But some beliefs, such as reincarnation and the ‘Dreamtime’, were universally held.


......The aborigine people believed that each person had a part of their nature that was eternal. This eternal being pre-existed the life of the individual, and only became a living person through being born to a mother. The person then lived a life in time, and at death melted back into the eternal life.

........The Dreamtime is a return to the real existence for the aborigine. Life in time is simply a passing phase - a gap in eternity. It has a beginning and it has an end. The life in Dreamtime has no beginning and no end.

........The aboriginal tribes are connected with their local landscape in a way that perhaps no other race of recent times is. The landscape is almost an externalisation of the individual’s inner world. Each tribe had a traditional area of the land which was theirs alone, and it was believed that in the Dreamtime the ancestors shaped the flat landscape into its present features. Each feature was in some way an act of the ancestors, and therefore the tribe. Like many tribal peoples, the Australian native people were deeply dependent upon their beliefs, the landscape and their inner life for their identity and strength. This makes them vulnerable to anything which disrupts their beliefs, although, apart from such vulnerability, they have a greater psychic sense of wholeness and identity with their tribe and environment than is common in Western individuals.

www.dreamhawk.com...

Sweet Dreams


sparrow

Nothing makes me "judge someone as an idiot" faster then "them claiming they are awake and I am a sheeple".

Judgment comes even faster when they begin to share the "facts" with me and they begin by quoting (word for word) some guru or fanatical speaker on a subject that has little or no proof.

And then they look at you with this prideful shame, as if they are so enlightened and you are dirt-dumb.

"ooooh, you think space reptiles are NOT in control of our world? Man...you are SO ASLEEP! WAKE UP MAN!"

Yeah...I'm a sleeper, you're awake, and the only way I can join you on your side of awakening, is to blindly follow the words of some moron who doesn't have a damn shred of proof to back up their crazy claims.

Yeah...I'll snooze.

Those awake people can enjoy their "wakefulness" and all the stupidity it takes to openly say-

"I KNOW the truth on secret matters that nobody else knows but me and my circle of wack-nut friends/followers"

Zzzzzzzzz.

[edit on 6-2-2010 by Mr Mask]

Reply to post by Mr Mask

Don't forget the classic "Buy my book/movie/media that tells you the horrible truth mankind NEEDS to survive" authors and the various industries that feed into and off such people.


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Originally posted by sparrowstail
Interesting thread. I am a firm believer in the yin yang polarity. This too, I feel, extends into the conscious and subconscious. I feel over the years civilization has dumbed down their subconscious or connection to the spiritual world/ mysteries.

No where else is this connection more exemplified IMO than within the Australian aborigine culture. I feel their interpretation of their surroundings and subconscious understanding most resembles what you are getting at with your post. I snipped a few bits from a page I linked that gives some insight into their understanding of the world in which they live. I feel it smacks with what you are exploring. I wish there were some Aussie elders on ATS. Maybe some Aussie ATS'ers can shed light on some of this.

Thank you for that and the rest of your post. I do feel we have dumbed ourselves down but that does not say that we have exorcised ourselves of it. It is there, just that we are not always aware of it, either by our earthly nature or by design of some sort and the limitations placed on us by them.

I also think that this existence is fractal and find the following quote illustrates it quite well:

If the Matrix is a computer simulation that exists within a larger simulation that encompasses Zion, what about the world beyond that? And the world beyond that? Just how deep does the rabbit hole actually go? Once we reject the truth of one utterly convincing reality, we are compelled to doubt and question the reality of any other world presented to us as being "real." There might not be an end to the rabbit hole at all - perhaps that is a message of The Matrix: no matter how deep we delve, we'll never reach an end of illusions, questions, and doubts.

Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Or there is no matrix and the idea that there is, is simply a illusion/dream. Not saying that there isn't but simply throwing the idea out there.


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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

No. You are being overly defensive about a comment that was in agreement with your premise and not aimed at you anyway..... :dwn:

 

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Ah, ok, my apologies then. My interpretation of your meaning was entirely wrong. 'Tis the drawback of trying to communicate with one liners.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

Or there is no matrix and the idea that there is, is simply a illusion/dream. Not saying that there isn't but simply throwing the idea out there.

 

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True that. Although it would appear to be so, at least the fractal nature of everything.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by Mr Mask

 

Don't forget the classic "Buy my book/movie/media that tells you the horrible truth mankind NEEDS to survive" authors and the various industries that feed into and off such people.

 

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Exactly. You get what I am saying in my uncouth, barbaric way.

People are stupid all over, but the dumbest seem to come from the woodwork of the "house of conspiracy".

You want to find some of the most delusional/blind/easily-fooled people on the planet? Look no farther then "the typical conspiracy nut" who takes any sub-section of it all as "100% fact".

I take aliens as 100% fact.

I take the Truther-movement's side as 100% fact.

I take Alex Jones, David Icke, Greer, Hovind, etc etc, as 100% fact!

Jesus-mother slapping-Christ!

Makes me want to sleep just so I can't hear the crap these people endlessly shove in your face as if they are pearls and we are swine.

Sigh...some people don't need proof, they ONLY need a "talking head" with a snazzy cut of jib "telling them something in a glittering fashion".

After that, they feel liberated in "waking up"!

Gee...how awakening...some guy sells his product to your face and you jump on a band wagon to buy it.

No thanks...me sleepy...you awakey.

Reply to post by Mr Mask

I think it has large parts to do with inferiority/superiority complexes. Follows the methodology at the very least.


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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Reply to post by Mr Mask

 

I think it has large parts to do with inferiority/superiority complexes. Follows the methodology at the very least.

 

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I'm not a doctor of any sort, so I can't begin to start "telling people" what is "actually wrong with them".

All I can do is guess.

Reply to post by Mr Mask

Just speculating. But if you study psychology the paralels are obvious. Doesn't mean it's the sole possibility or even right of course.


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