The Wonderful Land of Punt

G'day ATS, of late I've been reading up on the Ancient Egyptians, what an amazing civilisation, one that I believe we owe so much to.

Several times I've come across a little know land called Punt. I did a search and there are 0 threads about this place, a few mentions but no threads. I thought I'd gather some of the information that can be found and relate it to you here on ATS.


The Land of 'God'

Information is very limited to say the least. Most of what we know is given to us by the Egyptians who traded extensively with this place.

They named this land Pwenet, or Pwene.

Because of the goods from Punt used by priests and to adorn temples, it was known as a region of God's Land, and considered a personal pleasure garden of the god, Amun. A stele in the mortuary temple of Amenhotep III (18th Dynasty) records a speech delivered by the god Amun, stating:

"Turning my face to sunrise I created a wonder for you, I made the lands of Punt come here to you, with all the fragrant flowers of their lands, to beg your peace and breathe the air you give."

An alternative theory suggests:

The ancient Egyptians also called Punt Ta netjer, meaning "God's Land". This did not mean they considered Punt a "Holy Land"; rather, it meant the regions of the Sun God, i.e., regions located in the direction of the sunrise.

The importance of Punt as a trading post can be highlighted by the materials and items available there. A recent dig in Wadi Gawasis by Boston University has revealed relics of seafaring signifying the substantial level of trade happening between Egypt and Punt at the time.


Sailing into antiquity

Although Nile River craft are well-known, the ability of ancient Egyptian mariners to ply hundreds of miles of open seas in cargo craft was not so fully documented.

Then the team led by Bard and an Italian archaeologist, Rodolfo Fattovich, started uncovering maritime storerooms in 2004, putting hard timber and rugged rigging to the notion of pharaonic deepwater prowess.

In the most recent discovery, on Dec. 29, they located the eighth in a series of lost chambers at Wadi Gawasis after shovelling through cubic meters of rock rubble and wind-blown sand.

The reconnaissance of the room and its relics will take time and caution. The chamber’s most likely contents include ship parts, jugs, trenchers, and workaday linens, as well as hieroglyphic records.

The remote desert site at the sea’s edge was established solely to satisfy the cravings of Egypt’s rulers for the luxury goods of faraway Punt: ebony, ivory, obsidian, frankincense, precious metals, slaves, and strange beasts, such as dog-faced baboons and giraffes.

Several trading forays to Punt are recorded by the Egyptians.

The earliest recorded Egyptian expedition to Punt was organized by Pharaoh Sahure of the Fifth Dynasty (25th century BC) although gold from Punt is recorded as having been in Egypt in the time of king Khufu of the Fourth Dynasty of Egypt.

Subsequently, there were more expeditions to Punt in the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt, the Eleventh dynasty of Egypt, the Twelfth dynasty of Egypt and the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt. In the Twelfth dynasty of Egypt, trade with Punt was celebrated in popular literature in the "Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor"

In the reign of Mentuhotep III (around 1950 BC), an officer named Hannu organized one or more voyages to Punt, but it is uncertain whether he travelled on these expeditions. Trading missions of the 12th dynasty Pharaohs Senusret I and Amenemhat II had also successfully navigated their way to and from the mysterious land of Punt.

Queen Hatshepsut's Fabled Expedition

A trip to Punt is recorded at the temple of Deir el-Bahri, a mortuary and tomb complex near Luxor.

In the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, Hatshepsut built a Red Sea fleet to facilitate trade between the head of the Gulf of Aqaba and points south as far as Punt to bring mortuary goods to Karnak in exchange for Nubian gold.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/47ce2506bb84.jpg[/atsimg]ABOVE: Members of Queen Hatshepsut's trading expedition depicted on the walls of the queen's tomb

Queen Hatshepsut ruled Egypt from ca. 1503 to 1480 B.C. In contrast to the warlike temper of her dynasty, she devoted herself to administration and the encouragement of commerce. In the summer of 1493 B.C., she sent a fleet of five ships with thirty rowers each from Kosseir, on the Red Sea, to the Land of Punt, near present-day Somalia. It was primarily a trading expedition, for Punt, or God's Land, produced myrrh, frankincense, and fragrant ointments that the Egyptians used for religious purposes and cosmetics.

We do not know when the ships returned to Kosseir, but Hatshepsut herself informed us in lengthy inscriptions on the walls of her beautiful terraced temple at Deir el-Bahri, near Luxor in the Valley of the Kings, that "the ships were laden with the costly products of the Land of Punt and with its many valuable woods, with very much sweet-smelling resin and frankincense, with quantities of ebony and ivory . . ."

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e4aec7461f2b.jpg[/atsimg]

The queens' artists immortalized this homecoming in murals on the walls of the temple, which depict not only potted myrrh saplings and sacks of frankincense, but also fish and other fauna and flora collected during the expedition. The drawings on these walls are so accurate that the famed ichthyologist, the late Carl Hubbs of Scripps Institution of Oceanography, told me that he was "able to identify the fish to the species level" from the drawings!

Hatshepsut's mortuary temple is one of the major sources of information about the Puntites (as they are known). it gives us the names of the rulers of Punt at the time; King Parahu and Queen Ati

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5ba7a5acea96.jpg[/atsimg]ABOVE: King Parahu and Queen Ati depicted on the walls of the queen's tomb


“Wonderful Things of Punt.’’

As previously mentioned, the luxuries demanded by the Egyptian nobility were the primary reason for trade.

"...loading of the ships very heavily with marvels of the country of Punt; all goodly fragrant woods of God's-Land, heaps of myrrh resin, with fresh myrrh trees, with ebony and pure ivory, with green gold of Emu, with cinnamon wood, khesyt wood, with two kinds of incense, eye-cosmetics, with apes, monkeys, dogs, and with skins of the southern panther, with natives and their children. Never was brought the like of this for any king who has been since the beginning"

However we have records of other "items" being acquired by the Egyptians from Punt. as retold in hieroglyph from the Tomb of Harkhuf.

When he goes down with thee into the vessel, appoint excellent people, who shall be beside him on each side of the vessel; take care lest he fall into the water. When he sleeps at night appoint excellent people, who shall sleep beside him in his tent, inspect ten times a night. My majesty desires to see this dwarf more than the gifts of Sinai and of Punt. If thou arrivest at court this dwarf being with thee alive, prosperous and healthy, my majesty will do for thee a greater thing than that which was done for the treasurer of the god Burded in the time of Isesi, according to the heart's desire of my majesty to see the dwarf.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a4ff05e17a42.png[/atsimg]ABOVE: Segment of hieroglyph telling of Pharaoh Harkhuf's desire for a Puntite Dwarf


Location and further INFO

It is not known for sure where this mysterious place was. It's hard to believe that no ruins or archaeology have been found. It may be worthy to note that the locations touted as the possible sites of Punt are in some of the most unstable in Africa, which may account for the lack of definitive archaeological evidence. Hopefully this area may one day be extensively surveyed and excavated.

What is in no doubt is the importance to the Egyptians both for trade but also historically too.

The ancient Egyptians viewed the Land of Punt as their ancestral homeland. In his book “The Making of Egypt” (1939), W. M. Flinders Petrie stated that the Land of Punt was “sacred to the Egyptians as the source of their race.” E.A. Wallis Budge stated that “Egyptian tradition of the Dynastic Period held that the aboriginal home of the Egyptians was Punt…”

Explained further:

"Origins in Elam and Punt. The distinctive character of the 1st dynasty, which separates it from all that went before, is the conquest and union of the whole land of Egypt. It became thus subject to the falcon-bearing tribe of Horus, which was the natural enemy of the Aunu, the Set-bearing tribe. This falcon tribe had certainly originated in Elam, as indicated by the hero and lions on the "Araq knife handle". They went down the Persian Gulf and settled in the "horn of Africa." There they named the "Land of Punt," sacred to later Egyptians as the source of the race. The Pun people founded the island fortress of Hafun, which commands the whole of that coast, and hence came the Punic or Phoenic peoples of classical history. Those who went up the Red Sea formed the dynastic invaders of Egypt, entering by the Qocier-Koptos road. Others went on to Syria and founded Tyre, Sidon and Aradus--W.M. Flinders Petrie

Continued....






[edit on 13-1-2010 by kiwifoot]

The most efficient method for putting forward candidates for the placement of Punt is by the illustration below:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56dd8512dd30.jpg[/atsimg]

The argument for a Punt being relatively close to Egypt can be made.

We known that some of Punt's treasures were carried over land by way of Nmay and Irem (through the modern Sudan). We also here of the children of the chiefs of Punt that were raised at the Egyptian court alongside the children of Kush (Nubia) and Irem.

For the more Southern locations:

"There is still some debate regarding the precise location of Punt, which was once identified with the region of modern Somalia. A strong argument has now been made for its location in either southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia, where the indigenous plants and animals equate most closely with those depicted in the Egyptian reliefs and paintings.Ian Shaw from the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e84a8b5876bc.png[/atsimg]ABOVE: Myrrh trees being dug up and brought to Egypt. From Hatshepsut's temple at Deir el-Bahari.

One more tantalising bit of information regarding Punt can be gained again from the Deir el-Bahri scenes.

depictions of the unusual Puntite settlements, comprising conical reed-built huts set on poles above the ground, and entered via ladders.

I wonder why this type of dwelling was favoured? Does this suggest flooding (Punt being closer to the Nile?), or wild animals (placing Punt further South and West)?

Nobody can know for sure, but here is an image depicting the dwellings described:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/88526f221388.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/acd9308a8a7c.png[/atsimg]

I find it sad that the story of Punt is told by their neighbours, on walls and tombs of trading partners. However the fact that their dwellings seem to be made of wood and palm may point to the reason why so little has been found of them.

I like to think they celebrated life in a way the Egyptians couldn't, placing importance not on the afterlife, but the here and now.

Think about it, if it wasn't for the Egyptian's total obsession with death, tombs and the afterlife, how much about them would we know today?

I hope this thread has been at least interesting, if not too informing from the lack of real evidence out there.

All the best ATS, Kiwifoot!



SOURCES

Queen Hatshepsut's expedition to the Land of Punt: The first oceanographic cruise? by Sayed Z. El-Sayed

The Wonderful Land of Punt
by Jimmy Dunn

Ancient African History: The Land of Punt

Sailing into antiquity - Boston.com

Wikipedia: Land of Punt

Inscriptions from the Tomb of Harkhuf

Hatshepsut´s Mortuary Temple RECOMMENDED READING



[edit on 13-1-2010 by kiwifoot]

This was just featured on the latest episode of Nova. It was funny to watch academics play ancient sailors. The Egyptian boat builders they hired thought so to.

www.pbs.org...

The Expedition to Punt In the 15th century B.C., the Egyptian pharaoh Hatshepsut, a woman who ruled as a king, launched a fabled expedition to a far-away land known as Punt, later recording the journey in a stone bas-relief. Here, use a detailed line drawing of the bas-relief to follow the Punt expedition from start to finish.—Peter Tyson

www.pbs.org...

Originally posted by Deny Arrogance
This was just featured on the latest episode of Nova. It was funny to watch academics play ancient sailors. The Egyptian boat builders they hired thought so to.

www.pbs.org...

The Expedition to Punt In the 15th century B.C., the Egyptian pharaoh Hatshepsut, a woman who ruled as a king, launched a fabled expedition to a far-away land known as Punt, later recording the journey in a stone bas-relief. Here, use a detailed line drawing of the bas-relief to follow the Punt expedition from start to finish.—Peter Tyson

www.pbs.org...

Why the HELL did that not come up in 3 HOURS of Googling!!!!

I could have done with it two hours ago!

But thanks for the info mate!

All the best, Kiwifoot!

I just reread the PBS article, at the end there is an amazing quote from an Egyptian love song:

When I hold my love close, and her arms steal around me, I'm like a man translated to Punt ... when the world suddenly bursts into flower.

Punt truly must have been an amazing place!

Good thread. I did in fact very recently discuss Punt in my thread, "India: Ancient Superpower" www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is a good discussion in that thread of the location of Punt.

Punt was most likely in the Indian subcontinent, probably in the South of India. The reason for this can be asserted based on historical records of South Indians which remember the expeditions of Queen Hatshepshut, Greek records that record the migrations of the Egytians from India and and the description of fauna of Punt, which matches India. There is also indirect evidence of major trade activity between the Indians and the Egyptians. Thus "Punt" was most probably the Egyptian name for India.

My personal theory is the Egyptians was one of the first colonies setup by a group of migrants from India and hence we see similarities in Indian and early Egyptian religion.


[edit on 14-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Good thread. I did in fact very recently discuss Punt in my thread, "India: Ancient Superpower" www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is a good discussion in that thread of the location of Punt.

Punt was most likely in the Indian subcontinent, probably in the South of India. The reason for this can be asserted based on historical records of South Indians which remember the expeditions of Queen Hatshepshut, Greek records that record the migrations of the Egytians from India and and the description of fauna of Punt, which matches India. There is also indirect evidence of major trade activity between the Indians and the Egyptians. Thus "Punt" was most probably the Egyptian name for India.

My personal theory is the Egyptians was one of the first colonies setup by a group of migrants from India and hence we see similarities in Indian and early Egyptian religion.


[edit on 14-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]

Cheers mate, I'll definitely be checking your thread out.

I didn't come across the Indian theory in my research, but it's as good as any and does ring true.

The only problem would be that it's a fair old boat (acrsoo open sea) trip to India in the kind of craft the Egyptians built. Surely they would have recorded such a momentous journey in greater detail?

I'll do some more digging, but thanks for giving me another angle to look at!

All the best Indigo, Kiwifoot!

Sorry, got to ask a glaringly obvious question, but is this Land of Punt not the same as Puntland? Or this a modern attempt by the locals to instill some historical glory to their quasi-nation, much like the FYR Macedonia?

EDIT: Spelling

[edit on 14/1/10 by stumason]

Originally posted by kiwifoot
The only problem would be that it's a fair old boat (acrsoo open sea) trip to India in the kind of craft the Egyptians built. Surely they would have recorded such a momentous journey in greater detail?

Maybe they viewed it as such an ordinary thing, it wasn't worth mentioning. It is worth noting here that egyptian mummies have been found with Tobacco and Cocaine traces, plants only available in America up until recent times.

To put into context, if future archaeologists dig up our remains in 5000 years time, will they believe half the stuff we get up too, seeing as alot is so common place it is barely worth mentioning.

Originally posted by stumason
Sorry, got to ask a glaringly obvious question, but is this Land of Punt not the same as Puntland? Or this a modern attempt by the locals to instill some historical glory to their quasi-nation, much like the FYR Macedonia?

Hey Stu, thanks for pointing me in the direction of Puntland, I hadn't come across it in my research for the thread.

As it says on Wiki, they named it after Punt, there is a strong argument for the land of Punt being in Somalia, but as others have suggested there are also a few others, no archaeological evidence yet for the whereabouts.

I hope one day that will change!

All the best, kiwifoot!

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Kiwi. Solid effort in presenting it, kudos on that.

Through reading your post, jumping on to Wikipedia to check the reference, I had the idea that Punt should be more "tropical" and lush. Somalia just doesn't fit that pattern, especially when it comes to one of the commodities traded, ivory. One can say that ivory itself could be imported to Punt and then exported to Egypt for a profit (Punt acted as intermediate of some sort if this is the case). My mind was racing more to the east, since the name translates as "the land of the (Sun) God", meaning the 'land of sunrise'. So I was thinking of a land with lush vegetation and variety of woods/spices, flowers and perfumes, spices and ivory - if the "import hypothesis" is not valid. That land is India and I think Indigo is on to something!

We know that Egyptians have had trade relations with the Persian Gulf region since very early on, vessels capable of making the journey circumnavigating the Arabian peninsula were made in Mesopotamia as early as 4,000 BC (first contact must have been made by Mesopotamians, the Egyptians were not famous for their navy skills but one can learn, no?). You don't need an open sea vessel to reach India, if you sail close to the shore, turn east when you reach the Hormuz strait, you can reach the shores of present day Pakistan and if you sail further east-southeast you can go as far as you want along the west Indian coastline.

Another alternative is some part of the Arabian peninsula, either Yemen or Aden and thereabouts or further east along the south shore, to Oman. Modern day Arabia, Yemen and Oman are not lush countries with a variety of woods, flowers and spices. Perhaps 2-3,000 years BC parts of them were much greener, due to some climate shift. We need evidence for such a shift though and I cannot provide any, just speculating.

Of course, there is always the chance that Punt is in Somalia and it imported what goods it lacked and exported the majority of them to Egypt. That assumes a more extensive commercial network with Punt in the middle but that cannot be ruled out - if Greeks had trade relations with parts of the world as remote, to them, as India and the British Isles, roughly 2,000 years after Hatshepsut's time, why couldn't Punt trade with parts of the world much closer to it, like India, Oman and perhaps Kenya or some other part of Africa? (the locations I named are modern names as I don't know the ancient names of the respective regions, at least not all of them).

The best way to try and pinpoint a location would be if there was a somewhat accurate account of how long the journey lasted, not the entire expedition but the journey itself. If we know that, we can rule out some regions, maybe.

P.S. Flagged!

reply to post by kiwifoot
What a nice thread! Informative and interesting. I've long wanted a history section where threads like this can have a chance to shine. It shows that we don't always need to be adding aliens and mystery advanced races to every human achievement in the past. For many members, the temptation to attribute great mystery to Punt would be like a junkie in a chemist shop...or a fat kid at KFC. Irresistible!

The location of Punt has fascinated a section of archaeologists for decades. It's considered to be in North Africa for many reasons. The main reason is that Egypt's boats weren't built for open seas. They were river vessels and the journeys to Punt involved towing barges. Egyptian boats were unique in design, constructed jigsaw-like with odd-shaped planks being lashed together with leather thongs. We've nothing like them anywhere else before or since.

The land of Punt is thought, therefore to be somewhere along the Nile or accessible through a tributary. It was on or near a mountain and was famously dry. Around 600BC, it was recorded that Punt had had rainfall! It was very unusual and caused a flood in the Nile.

Cool thread

Originally posted by Maegnas
Thanks for bringing this to my attention Kiwi. Solid effort in presenting it, kudos on that.

Through reading your post, jumping on to Wikipedia to check the reference, I had the idea that Punt should be more "tropical" and lush. Somalia just doesn't fit that pattern, especially when it comes to one of the commodities traded, ivory. One can say that ivory itself could be imported to Punt and then exported to Egypt for a profit (Punt acted as intermediate of some sort if this is the case). My mind was racing more to the east, since the name translates as "the land of the (Sun) God", meaning the 'land of sunrise'. So I was thinking of a land with lush vegetation and variety of woods/spices, flowers and perfumes, spices and ivory - if the "import hypothesis" is not valid. That land is India and I think Indigo is on to something!

We know that Egyptians have had trade relations with the Persian Gulf region since very early on, vessels capable of making the journey circumnavigating the Arabian peninsula were made in Mesopotamia as early as 4,000 BC (first contact must have been made by Mesopotamians, the Egyptians were not famous for their navy skills but one can learn, no?). You don't need an open sea vessel to reach India, if you sail close to the shore, turn east when you reach the Hormuz strait, you can reach the shores of present day Pakistan and if you sail further east-southeast you can go as far as you want along the west Indian coastline.

Another alternative is some part of the Arabian peninsula, either Yemen or Aden and thereabouts or further east along the south shore, to Oman. Modern day Arabia, Yemen and Oman are not lush countries with a variety of woods, flowers and spices. Perhaps 2-3,000 years BC parts of them were much greener, due to some climate shift. We need evidence for such a shift though and I cannot provide any, just speculating.

Of course, there is always the chance that Punt is in Somalia and it imported what goods it lacked and exported the majority of them to Egypt. That assumes a more extensive commercial network with Punt in the middle but that cannot be ruled out - if Greeks had trade relations with parts of the world as remote, to them, as India and the British Isles, roughly 2,000 years after Hatshepsut's time, why couldn't Punt trade with parts of the world much closer to it, like India, Oman and perhaps Kenya or some other part of Africa? (the locations I named are modern names as I don't know the ancient names of the respective regions, at least not all of them).

The best way to try and pinpoint a location would be if there was a somewhat accurate account of how long the journey lasted, not the entire expedition but the journey itself. If we know that, we can rule out some regions, maybe.

P.S. Flagged!

Hey Maegnas, great reply, I wish I could copy and paste that into the OP!

I agree, the fact that all the possibilities you described have their merits make this an intriguing mystery.

I propose an ATS dig (dig = 5 year vacation), an attempt to find the lost Land of Punt!

If I had a gun to my head and had to choose, I'd still be inclined to say somewhere on the African continent, with extensive treading links to India, Arabia and the heart of Africa.

My reasoning is just that I'm not too sure that Egyptian seafarers would be able to make the trip to India, and also the evidence of overland trips to Punt. However, having said that, these may have simply been the land segment of the journey, the actual goods having been sailed in from across the sea!

I think in this case, it may be wiser to acknowledge we don't know for sure and to perpetuate the ongoing mystery of Punt's whereabouts - this is ATS after all!

Thanks again bud!

Kiwifoot

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

What a nice thread! Informative and interesting. I've long wanted a history section where threads like this can have a chance to shine. It shows that we don't always need to be adding aliens and mystery advanced races to every human achievement in the past. For many members, the temptation to attribute great mystery to Punt would be like a junkie in a chemist shop...or a fat kid at KFC. Irresistible!

The location of Punt has fascinated a section of archaeologists for decades. It's considered to be in North Africa for many reasons. The main reason is that Egypt's boats weren't built for open seas. They were river vessels and the journeys to Punt involved towing barges. Egyptian boats were unique in design, constructed jigsaw-like with odd-shaped planks being lashed together with leather thongs. We've nothing like them anywhere else before or since.

The land of Punt is thought, therefore to be somewhere along the Nile or accessible through a tributary. It was on or near a mountain and was famously dry. Around 600BC, it was recorded that Punt had had rainfall! It was very unusual and caused a flood in the Nile.

Cool thread

Thanks mate!

I love the Ancient & Lost Civilisations forum, I like to mix a bit of Sanity with my Loopy!

Thanks for the info you provided, I agree with your reasoning on Egyptian Boats. Some of the finds at Wadi Gawasis do suggest boats a little more rigid than most initially thought, however I doubt they'd survive the Indian Ocean.

Like all things Archaeological, who says they didn't though, India really does seem to fit as Indigo and Maegnas point out.

I think the only way to nail this would be some hard archaeological evidence, but the fact is we're talking about a few thousand square kilometres of possible sites, and although the options could be whittled down, it would still be a tough ask.


Where's Indy when you need him!

All the best mate, kiwifoot!

"Peter Von Bohlen (1796-1840) German Indologist, compared India with ancient Egypt. He thought there was a cultural connection between the two in ancient times.

(source: German Indologists: Biographies of Scholars in Indian Studies writing in German - By Valentine Stache-Rosen. p.15-16).

In his book, Empire of the Soul: Some Journeys in India, Paul William Roberts, states:

" Recent research and scholarship make it increasingly possible to believe that the Vedic era was the lost civilization whose legacy the Egyptians and the Indians inherited. There must have been one. There are too many similarities between hieroglyphic texts and Vedic ones, these in turn echoed in somewhat diluted form and a confused fashion by the authors of Babylonian texts and the Old Testament."

(source: Empire of the Soul: Some Journeys in India - By Paul William Roberts p. 300).

It is believed that the Dravidians from India went to Egypt and laid the foundation of its civilization there. the Egyptians themselves had the tradition that they originally came from the South, from a land called Punt, which an historian of the West, Dr. H.R. Hall, thought referred to some part of India.

The Indus Valley civilization is, according to Sir John Marshall who was in charge of the excavations, the oldest of all civilizations unearthed (c. 4000 B.C.) It is older than the Sumerian and it is believed by many that the latter was a branch of the former.

(source: The Bhagvad Gita: A Scripture for the Future - Translation and Commentary by Sachindra K. Majumdar p. 28).

Adolf Erman (1854-1937) author of Life in ancient Egypt and A handbook of Egyptian religion, says that the persons who were responsible for a highly developed Egyptian civilization were from Punt, an Asiatic country, a description of which is unveiled by this scholar from the old legends - a distant country washed by the great seas, full of valleys, incense, balsum, precious metals and stones; rich in animals, cheetahs, panthers, dog-headed apes and long tailed monkeys, winged creatures with strange feathers to fly up to the boughs of wonderful trees, especially the incense tree and the coconut trees.

Dr. Erman further says that analyzing the Egyptian legends makes it clear that from Punt the heavenly beings headed by Amen, Horus and Hather, passed into the Nile valley...To this same country belongs that idol of Bes, the ancient figure of the deity in the Land of Punt.

M A Murray author of Legends of Ancient Egypt rightly observes that as a race the Egyptians are more Asiatic than African. He cites the type 'P' as depicted by Hatshepsut's artists as his support.

(source: The Aryan Hoax: That Dupes The Indians - By Paramesh Choudhary p. 225).

Klaus K. Klostermaier, in his book A Survey of Hinduism p. 18 says:

"For several centuries a lively commerce developed between the ancient Mediterranean world and India, particularly the ports on the Western coast. The most famous of these ports was Sopara, not far from modern Bombay, which was recently renamed Mumbai. Present day Cranganore in Kerala, identified with the ancient Muziris, claims to have had trade contacts with Ancient Egypt under Queen Hatsheput, who sent five ships to obtain spices, as well as with ancient Israel during King Soloman's reign. Apparently, the contact did not break off after Egypt was conquered by Greece and later by Rome."

www.hinduwisdom.info...

reply to post by kiwifoot

If I had a gun to my head and had to choose, I'd still be inclined to say somewhere on the African continent, with extensive treading links to India, Arabia and the heart of Africa.

India is a nice idea and without support. The goods that were traded with Punt are all African in origin. Giraffe, panther and cheetah pelts. Elephant ivory etc.

Punt is intriguing from a political point of view too. It was a place that remained stable for a period of at least a 1000 years. We know this because of the recorded journeys undertaken. So we have a place that is plentiful and undoubtedly wealthy through the benefits of trade.

The tone of the descriptions of Punt by Ramses III (for example) imply Punt had the upper hand in trade. They were powerful enough to remain unconquered by anyone over this period of time. And yet, they leave no known evidence of their civilization in terms of buildings? Reed houses may well have been used, but wealthy cultures build fortifications by necessity.

Possibly the name was lost in time, but the location remains unrecognized? Much like London is built on settlements that reach back to neolithic times. Perhaps Punt is an active city? Maybe Berbera in Somalia, Addis Abbaba or Dhjibouti (sp?)? A powerful nation grows in good locations and these locations are returned to again and again over time, whenever possible. Most exist continuously through time...

There's more information in this text...not sure how it'll load up though!?




[edit on 16-1-2010 by Kandinsky]

[edit on 16-1-2010 by Kandinsky]

reply to post by spacecowgirl


Some very good claims for Punt being on the Indian subcontinent for sure!

I do still wonder about the seagoing worthiness of Egyptian boats.

But then again, if Thor Hyadal can do it in a raft!

Thanks for the quotes and for contributing to this thread!

Kiwifoot

reply to post by Kandinsky


Cheers for that, I like the notion of the way to Punt being lost by the Egyptians, it was somewhat of a mystery to them too!

I agree with your theory on Punt actually being in use today, well the land on which it stood anyway, it would certainly explain the lack of evidence!

Cheers friend!

Kiwifoot!

[edit on 16-1-2010 by kiwifoot]

Originally posted by kiwifoot
reply to post by spacecowgirl

 

Some very good claims for Punt being on the Indian subcontinent for sure!

I do still wonder about the seagoing worthiness of Egyptian boats.

But then again, if Thor Hyadal can do it in a raft!

Thanks for the quotes and for contributing to this thread!

Kiwifoot

Noah's Ark was circular raft made of reeds, according to ancient tablet
Quote

Noah's Ark was circular raft made of reeds, according to ancient tablet
Noah's Ark was a circular reed raft rather than a traditional boat, according to newly translated ancient Babylonian instructions.


The tablet's translation says: "Wall, wall! Reed wall, reed wall! Atram-Hasis, pay heed to my advice, that you may live forever! Destroy your house, build a boat; despise possessions And save life! Draw out the boat that you will built with a circular design; Let its length and breadth be the same."
Mr Finkel, the curator of the recent British exhibition on ancient Babylon, believes it was during the Babylonian captivity that the exiled Jews learned of the story of Noah and incorporated it into the Old Testament.

"It is the most extraordinary thing," Douglas told The Guardian. "You hold it in your hand, and you instantly get a feeling that you are directly connected to a very ancient past – and it gives you a shiver down your spine."


[link to www.telegraph.co.uk]

The more I think about it the more I am inclined to admit that Somali coast is the best choice for Punt. While ancient Egyptian boats/ships could make the journey to India, by following the coastline as few people if any had ships capable of going out to the open seas. Pharoah Nekho II (probably I spelled it wrong) commissioned a team of Phoenician ships to circumnavigate Africa, around 600 BC, they set off from the Red Sea and return through Gibraltar in 3 years time - they were mostly following the coastline! It is possible that Indian merchants conducted trade with Punt, in the Somali coast, and goods transported there were then forwarded to Egypt along with goods that are African in origin (while Indian elephants may provide some ivory, African ones are a better source - and giraffes are not present in India at the time, if they were ever there)

Thanks to Kandinsky for pointing this out