Man, Monkey or Both?

Monkeys are my second favourite animal,

I'm suprised i've never noticed these ones before.

After seeing them however, monkeys are now my third favourite animal dropping below elephants.

Peace

reply to post by The Blind Eye


I think you're misunderstanding my intent. I don't mean to imply that we're not closely related to the Proboscis, but that we not as closely related to them as we are to other primates. Comfort level simply doesn't factor into it. And I didn't mean to imply that you were racist, but you did bring the point up. My comment about the measure of ignorance was referring to those who twist evolution into a dehumanization tool, rather than a field of study.

As for bald chimpanzees, it is the result of a genetic abnormality and does not represent a rare breed. However, IIRC, we are of even closer in relation to the pygmy Chimpanzee (Bonobo) than we are to the common Chimpanzee. One of the striking similarities between us is sexual. Humans and Bonobos are the only two Primates known to copulate regularly in the missionary position.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2ec2896a0701.gif[/atsimg]

reply to post by The Blind Eye


Can we get one thing straight - we are not monkeys. We are great apes.

Race has nothing to do with this - we are more genetically identical as a species than two gorillas from different families on different sides of the same hill. Bringing race into this discussion is pointless, and prone to derail the discussion.

reply to post by davesidious

Can we get one thing straight - we are not monkeys. We are great apes.

Well you can say we, all you want, that just makes them your kin not mine.
Primates.






[edit on 5-1-2010 by randyvs]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c37b1c1c052c.jpg[/atsimg] ( to see full image files.abovetopsecret.com... )

Now that we have regurgitated the family tree in all it's splendid lineage, may we move on?

Let's say from here on out, we do less of this...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/134cdc203330.jpg[/atsimg] ( hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil )

... and more of this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1dcc1fe84da0.jpg[/atsimg] ( aka blog.rv.net... )

There are quite a few thought-provoking directions offered in the OP, that we have barely scratched the surface of... and here we are half way through a second page of the thread already.

One of which is the subject of racism and how such insidious notions are developed through most intellectual discourse on evolution and related subject matters. i.e. take a long second look at the "family tree" illustration" above. Can any one tell me what they see, from a "black and white" perspective?

Another worthwhile discussion/argument could be made for how we distance ourselves from primates from a religious stand point. Which causes us to loose our grasp of reality, that we are just monkeys with a larger mental tool box, if you will,... oh sorry, my bad, "great apes".

In other words i was expecting a little bit more from my fellow ATS primates, then being corrected on names/labels and genetic links, i was looking for a much deeper understanding of who and what we are in relationship to our nearest cousins... and how we get in the way of our own understanding... but this requires much higher reasoning skills then spouting off text book level knowledge.

[edit on 5-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]

reply to post by The Blind Eye

Another worthwhile discussion/argument could be made for how we distance ourselves from primates from a religious stand point. Which causes us to loose our grasp of reality, that we are just monkeys with a larger mental tool box, if you will,... oh sorry, my bad, "great apes". In other words i was expecting a little big more from my fellow ATS primates, then being corrected on names/labels and genetic links, i was looking for a much deeper understanding of who and what we are in relationship to our nearest cousins...

Again, I think you're missing my intent or attributing a false separation with a superiority complex in favor of Apes. This simply isn't the case, and my contention is that if you want a deeper understanding, that it's important to realize the topography of the family lineages. If you had another point in mind, please clarify because it seems nobody in this thread is picking up on it.

reply to post by randyvs


And you can ignore it all you want - you are a great ape

reply to post by Lasheic

Despite all the misunderstanding thus far, you actually do understand. Thank you, the video you posted was a perfect elaborate break down on what i have been talking about. We play with the language in an attempt to distance ourselves from acknowledging that we are monkeys. It's hilarious to see to what extent we have gone to accomplish this song and dance. It's as if we have purposely gone completely out of our way to deny a fundamental fact, but why do we do this? What's there to be afraid of? Could the majority of this silliness be attributed to all the world bible thumpers and/or are we hardwired to prefer magical thinking over the brutal honesty that reality demands from us?

reply to post by The Blind Eye


I do understand where people come from when they find it easy and intuitive to separate man from animal. The religious reinforcement was originally likely a response to - rather than a catalyst of - the separation. We often don't even like to admit that all humans are part of the same species and, until really very recently, blacks were seen as sub-humans not eligible for human rights. England ended slavery and began it's march towards equality long before America did, but even during the Revolution - much debate revolved around whether or not the institution of slavery should be upheld or abolished. Often ethnic groups are persecuted as being responsible for social inequalities, and genocides are nearly always preceded by heavy dehumanization campaigns.

This is where I was going with the racism quip regarding ignorance. The division of racial variation within the same species to reduce man to animal shows ignorance of us all being the same offspring of a common ancestor, that correlating them to animals as if it's a bad thing is a sign of ignorance of the fact that we are ALL animals with practically no variation within our explicit branch. It's one of the misconception which come with colloquial understandings of Evolution as being a "progress towards a goal" - rather than simply different adaptations promoting survivability within an environment. Environments which, for humans, is largely mitigated due to our unique neural prowess for understanding our world and building technology - and of which hasn't changed since we migrated out of Africa.

In fact, the very behavior of looking for differences in populations & cultures and preforming in-group/out-group determinations (from which promotion or competition) is a mental routine we are still hardwired for which originated in our Hunter-Gatherer ancestors... and traces of which existed before that which can still be seen in our primate relatives. Even the "Make love not War" Bonobos engage in this often bloody group conflict over territory boundaries when dealing with members of another troupe. For them, in-group disputes can be settled by sex. Out group disputes are settled by fighting that can be every bit as fierce as it is in the common Chimpanzee.

So when randyvs says "No Kin of Mine", despite the mountains of contrary evidence - he is in fact subtly showing a behavior originating in our shared primate/monkey/ape lineage.

I don't think we deny our monkeyhood or apeishness because of some higher cognitive decision making unique to humans. We're just playing to the tune our brains have evolved to play. We don't see the world as it is, but in a way that's useful for us survive in. Colors are vibrant to our eyes, but they don't exist in reality.. it's a perceptually useful determination of the frequencies frequencies of photon reflected off of objects in our environment. In the same way, it's perceptually useful to not see Monkeys and Apes as relation - because we cannot breed with them, and we compete with them over resources. The only divisions we should support are those which can be shown to exist by evidence - and even then, realize that we're all part of the same extant family tree.

So no... I don't think religion is the cause, no more than religion was the cause for assuming the Sun revolved around the Earth. In our world, small things tend to be more mobile than large things - and so by scale, it would be a useful and understandable inference that the small sun would be easier to move around the seemingly infinite horizon of our planet. Similarly, it's a useful and understandable inference to see ourselves and our success at understanding the world as separate and unique from monkeys and apes. Perhaps God was invented, in part, to explain why there is a difference in our aptitudes. Such assumptions are wrong, but without the benefit of evidence and thousands of years of studying the Earth - I cannot blame that inference for making a wrong assumption.

Never attribute to malice that which can be just as easily explained by ignorance.

Thank you Lasheic for the thoughtful reply

Coupled with your vid and this vid;


and the general premise of your post with the following:

Originally posted by Lasheic
Never attribute to malice that which can be just as easily explained by ignorance.

I think we are getting closer to what drives us to deny what/who we are.

Interesting to note that out of our collective ignorance of this fundamental fact, a lot of malice is created. As you have succinctly and eloquently put it, competition/survival are key central components to the puzzle. To extend this hardwired drive within us to include the desire for power and i think we have the catalyst for malice. In a state of fear, we lie, cheat and steal our way to higher ground. Though i think more and more we have to take this less literal and more figuratively, for it is not a physical death that we fear but a death of the ego.

...and it is the death of the ego from which is born the seduction of our selves and others, to gain a sense of mastery/control over our lives, to give this journey a sense of direction/purpose and to full fill our desires to feel special/important... which due to the beliefs/scripts that we follow we must deny that we are monkeys.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]

Originally posted by Trexter Ziam
Every time I see this picture, I think man/monkey.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f3a05e4814f5.jpg[/atsimg]

At first i saw a man, then after looking a bit longer and again, i can sorta see what you mean... but more in the direction of a Neanderthal, which resembles in face features and posture more of a monkey's... but then again we are basically talking about the same beast, we are all monkey's after all.

Since this thread, i have been on and off, in part an experiment and to just amuse myself when stuck in traffic or watching commercials, i have been looking at the people coming/going on the street and selling their shtick on the tube, as monkeys. It's a interesting perspective that makes for a weird experience. When you start seeing people as they are... monkeys, the process effortlessly fits like a glove, yet feels oddly uncomfortable.

It would be interesting to hear back from others who have tried this... to help articulate.


[edit on 6-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]

reply to post by The Blind Eye


How many times do we have to go over this? People are apes, not monkeys.

That creature could be the most wise, intellectual, multidimensional creature on earth as far as you know.

Originally posted by davesidious
How many times do we have to go over this? People are apes, not monkeys.

lol ... yes dave ... we've been down this road before ...

You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off! But oh!
If we call the whole thing off,
Then we must part. And oh!
If we ever part, Then that might break my heart!
So, if you like pajamas and I like pajahmas,
I'll wear pajamas and give up pajahmas.
For we know we need each other,
So we better call the calling off off.
Let's call the whole thing off!

...putting all monkey business a side for a moment.

I think the majority of people are more like monkeys, then apes. For one, despite all that you have been told, the human race is not as smart as the ape and spends most of their time in the tree tops (just like the monkeys but figuratively speaking)... which may be why monkeys are more fun, besides wouldn't it be cool to sport a tail that you could swing from tree to tree with?

reply to post by The Blind Eye


I take it you are being facetious.

Originally posted by davesidious
I take it you are being facetious.

Yes, or in other words, i am an ape acting like a monkey.

I understand the process of separation at play here. We put labels on things and then put them in neat little boxes that are placed inside bigger boxes with bigger labels. Here we have apes coming from monkeys, and we come from apes... yet we refuse to acknowledge that we are therefore come from monkeys also. Emphasizing such minor differences only encourages the gap. What if we were to focus on the similarities instead? ...too scary? ...especially for the creationist.

Yet we will focus on similarities when it comes to a species that is almost completely foreign to our own. i.e. Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

What does this say about us? Another case for social dissonance perhaps?

[edit on 14-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]

According to Edward O. Wilson, a behavioral biologist (who specialized in the research of animal behavior), the ten most intelligent animals are the following:

1. Chimpanzee (two species)
2, Gorilla
3. Orangutan
4. Baboon (seven species, including drill and mandrill)
5. Gibbon (seven species)
6. Monkey (many species, especially the macaques, the patas, and the Celebes black ape)
7. Smaller-toothed whale (several species, especially killer whale)
8. Dolphin (many of the approximately eighty species)
9. Elephant (two species)
10. Pig

source: www.enotes.com...


Which leads me to wonder if over half of the list are all monkeys, Why then do we embrace/champion the other animals as more like us when mentally and physically they are not ...cognitive dissonance?

reply to post by The Blind Eye


Only two entries on that list are monkeys - monkeys, and baboons.

The only cognitive dissonance I can see is you not being able to tell the difference between an ape and a monkey.

I acknowledge the differences, just as i do between men and women, but the differences are so small and irrelevant that it's not even worth bringing up... other then to separate us from ourselves.

If it make you happy that i say man is an ape. Then ok, "man is an ape". So from now on when i say 'man is a monkey' that obviously includes the apes... so don't be sad, our cousins are not forgotten.

An Elvis Costello song, Monkey To Man, comes to mind... which helps to illustrate how backwards we are in our own delusions of grandeur:

Every time that man struggles and fails
He makes up some kind of fairytales
After all of the misery that he has caused
He denies he’s descended from the dinosaurs

Points up to heaven with cathedral spires
All the time indulging in his base desires
Ever since we said it
He went and took the credit
It’s been headed this way since the world began
When a vicious creature took the jump from Monkey to Man

Big and useless as he has become
With his crying statues and his flying bomb
Goes ‘round acting like the chosen one
Excuse us if we treat him like our idiot cousin

He hangs up flowers and bells and rhymes
Hoping to hell that someone’s forgiven his crimes
Fills the air with his pride and his praise
He’s big disgrace to our beastly ways

In the fashionable nightclubs and finer precincts
Man uses words to dress up his vile instincts
Ever since we said it
He went and took the credit
It’s been headed this way since the world began
When a vicious creature took the jump from Monkey to Man

[edit on 16-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]