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6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Originally posted by badmedia
The myth that only by "Jesus" comes from John 3:16 and John 14:6. However, what is left in the open is what it means to "believe".
Originally posted by badmedia
You are right about the messenger part. That is one of the basics the father taught me. Not to focus on the messenger, but to instead focus on what they said. Because to give the message is the purpose of the messenger. So that is what I do.
Originally posted by badmedia
Lets take a look at John 14:6.
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Do you see how he is defining himself there? What is he saying? Is he saying that only by "Jesus" can one find the father? Or is he saying that only by the way, the truth and the life can one come by the father? Jesus being one who represents those things through his understanding and actions.
Originally posted by badmedia
The answer to this, and you question is found later in John 14.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
How could they hear the father if not through Jesus and his sayings if it was true that only by "Jesus" does one get to the father? The answer is - by seeking and following the way, the truth and the life.
Originally posted by badmedia
Jesus is interchangeable with those things because that is what he lived and did. However, these things are obtainable by any man who seeks them, regardless of race, culture and religion(although sometimes those things can keep one from seeking, Christianity included).
When I found the father, it was by those things, not "Jesus" or any religion etc. I didn't at the time even realize I was seeking out those things, I was just trying to understand the world and things like that. Didn't realize Jesus talked about what I experienced until months later.
Originally posted by badmedia
It is all about helping people find and coming to know God than it is about condemnation…
Originally posted by badmedia
But it is not doom and gloom for everyone. Far from it. Remember, those who are poor in spirit are blessed. What do you think Psalm 82 is talking about when it says defend the fatherless and the poor? It's not about orphans and money that is for sure, and it surely doesn't tell you to condemn them. Always have mercy on others, and if you can not find an easy way to have mercy on them, then think about the errors you have made and things you aren't proud of. That will humble you real quick and help.
Originally posted by Joecroft
So what you are saying, is that it is really about how we define, what it means to “believe”. Strange…I have been asking my Christian friends a similar question recently…i.e. “What does it mean to believe in Jesus?” or “What does it mean, to truly follow Jesus?” My own answer to these questions, and this is the short version, is that it is really about following and getting to know God.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Yes…this is just the thing…When Jesus speaks in the bible, sometimes it is God talking and other times it is Jesus speaking…I know, it sounds like a paradox, but it’s not. Most of the time it is obvious when it is God talking and when it is Jesus talking but sometimes it is not so clear.
I agree with what you are saying about not focusing on the messenger but instead focusing on what is being said, because what is being said, is coming directly from God, even though it is being spoken through Jesus. So by focusing on this, we are focusing on God, which I believe, is exactly, what Jesus wants us to do.
I have read the above about 30 times and have erased my reply to it 4 times lol…so try to bear with me…
I believe you are saying that we need to be more Christ like, in order to come to God, and rather than following Jesus the man, we are to follow his example.
Matthew 22
35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I have to say that most Christians interpret (John 14:6) as meaning, we can only come to God, through Jesus the person.
As for myself, I am currently undecided on this point, which is the reason I set up this thread.
This may sound like a strange question…but here goes...
How do you personally, define "the way, the truth and the life?"
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Originally posted by Joecroft
This may sound like a strange question…but here goes...
How do you personally, define "the way, the truth and the life?"
By seeking those things, do you mean looking for truth in all things?
I think you mentioned your experience to me on another thread, where you had a vision, almost like an OBE and there was a voice asking you if you wanted the experience to come to an end. (sorry for the short and hazy version). I was meaning to ask you, how from this experience, did you know that you were getting closer to God?
Wow… that is the first time I have heard a Christian saying that. I feel in my heart, that it is the truth.
Psalm 82 is reffering to people who do not know God (fatherless) and the poor, are the people who are poor in spirit because they do not know God.
The God I know, is quick to show mercy and slow to judge.
I find that through understanding comes forgiveness. I try not to judge anyone because I always think to myself that I don’t know what a person has gone through or the type of life they have lived.
Proverbs 8
6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
...
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Psalm 111:10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
John 10
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Originally posted by badmedia
Well, I just knew what it was, and I had a very deep understanding that came along with it. It was just so unlike anything I had ever experienced. Still after the vision I thought I was going crazy to be honest, simply because of the nature of what I had come to understand. My entire life my concept of "what is god" was basically like the sky fairy thing. Nobody ever talked about the father within and so forth, and still I don't see many Christians who get it either.
But things just kept getting reinforced. As I doubted I asked questions and so forth to myself, and the answers would come in weird ways that would give me understanding. I would be wondering about something, and I might hear just a single line on a radio commercial that would answer me, or repeat the answer I thought was right. I was wondering about something one day, took a walk in the park and got an answer in nature. Things like that. I understand alot more about creation and such, and I have seen things beyond "time" and I can't even really explain it. In the end, I think everyone just needs to experience it for themselves.
It's basically just so profound and the experience is on such a higher level it kind of leaves no doubt. Everytime I start to doubt, it's like bam the understanding is there. And then a few months later, I seen little tidbits of Jesus from the bible, and suddenly he made sense on the same level as that experience. I could see the father in him. And I had read those same verses before, but they never made any real sense to me. That was another big confirmation for me. John 14 basically describes my experience exactly.
Originally posted by badmedia
Not that all Christians are bad or anything. I can't blame all Christians for the actions of a few etc. But I find it is the ones who push the "religion" rather than the "understanding" the ones who offend in that manner. Again, just poor in spirit though, still very much blessed. Those who deceive are the guilty there, and only need to deceive good people to get them to do bad things.
Originally posted by badmedia
So like when people are able to forgive peoples sins with the holy spirit. What does the holy spirit do? Brings understanding and teaches. So, by that understanding one can show the other person the error in their ways, thus how to fix the mistake/sin. Or for things that can't be fixed, at least see the error to never do it again.
Originally posted by pthena
Jesus implied that knowledge of the Father can proceed knowledge of him (Jesus). If people knew the Father, then they would recognize the Father's words in what he was saying.
Originally posted by pthena
Remember that many people rejected Jesus because he did not bring worldly power and dominion.
Originally posted by Joecroft
Sounds pretty amazing…I don’t know if you can remember but I was telling you on another thread about my dream, I had about a year ago, when I heard a voice asking me “What is man” or What are you?”. The reason I mentioned this at that time was because you posted a similar question on another thread, asking an ATS member “What am I”. Btw… I am not someone who is prone to hearing voices and it was the first and only time it has ever happened to me. I did a search two months ago and found that Martin Luther King, wrote a famous essay, entitled “What is Man”. (it was also the title of a book by Mark Twian) I’m still unsure what the significance of that is, if any... I’m still working on it.
Anyway… I have had these strong intuitive feelings or maybe a knowing, is a better way to describe it. I’m not sure how long I have had it but it’s only fairly recently that I started to take notice of it. About two years ago I had this thought, that "nothing ever dies"…I didn’t know at the time where it came from, (this was before I really believed in God) it just popped in there lol I just kind of felt it was true but with no understanding as to how or why. Today though, I feel, I am a lot closer to the answer, if indeed I don’t already have the answer. This type of thing happens in a subtle way now but I don’t get any understanding to go with it. I have to study, research, read books and search online etc etc… to get the understanding. I would give my back teeth lol to get this “pure understanding” you are talking about.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Yes, I truly believe that all Christian denominations have found God including the ones who are poor in spirit or who don’t fully understand God. Obviously it would be better if they had true understanding but I believe like you have pointed out, that God blesses them anyway, regardless.
The crunch for me though, is other religious groups throughout the world, who pray to God and the fact that the Christians say or believe, that they do not know the true God, because they do not know Jesus and are therefore condemned.
I mean take the Jewish people for example, and this is probably the most ironic example, because they are praying too exactly the same God as the Christians are, and praying exactly the same prayers from the psalms ect... that were inspired and God breathed. I asked a Christian friend about this once and the reply I got was, they have a "veil over their eyes". I just find it hard to accept that God has left a "veil over their eyes" for over 2000 years and that during all this time, they have apparently been condemned,...according to the Christian doctrine.
I have just realized that you yourself, are living proof, that you can find God, without knowing anything about Jesus, even though you did find Jesus later on. I mean you received the “Holy Spirit” because you were seeking the truth and like Jesus says, if you seek the truth you will find it.
Did you receive any gifts of the spirit, like “speaking in tongues”, for example?
Take for example Muslims, who may live in a part of the world where there are no bibles aloud. Now bearing in mind that they pray to God everyday and the fact that there is only one God. Do you think as a Christian, that they might be praying directly to the Father or that at least the Father/God hears them?
Jesus in the Koran is not Christ so he is not the same Jesus otherwise there is no need for a Koran,
Jesus is the only way since it hooks up the sin of the flesh through salvation and dying on the cross innocently. The only other way to be saved is to be a Jew because God still has a promise with Israel with them plus I think you need to have the right bloodline which tests prove they are of a certain leanage.
26"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
32"We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
" 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.'[c] 34The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words:
" 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.'[d] 35So it is stated elsewhere:
" 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'[e]
36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
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Originally posted by badmedia
I remember you before.
The stuff about "who you are" is all dealing with being born of spirit. When that happens then you will understand that. Interestingly enough, you will also understand why the physical death isn't real, and why Jesus says do not fear those who can kill the body. Many things will not make alot of sense without being born of spirit.
Originally posted by badmedia
But it does sound to me like you aren't trusting yourself enough when you look externally for answers. I try to look externally for questions(I call them seeds), internally for answers.
Originally posted by badmedia
Externally, you will find every possible answer. It can't be trusted. If every person on this forum were to answer your questions, you would likely find every possible point of view on the question. Which one do you trust? All you can go off is what makes the most sense in understanding, and thus the real answer already came internally.
Originally posted by badmedia (from 3rd post)
But things just kept getting reinforced. As I doubted I asked questions and so forth to myself, and the answers would come in weird ways that would give me understanding. I would be wondering about something, and I might hear just a single line on a radio commercial that would answer me, or repeat the answer I thought was right. I was wondering about something one day, took a walk in the park and got an answer in nature. Things like that. I understand alot more about creation and such, and I have seen things beyond "time" and I can't even really explain it. In the end, I think everyone just needs to experience it for themselves.
Matthew 9: 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Hosea 6
5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
8Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.
Originally posted by Joecroft
Hmm… the stuff about “who you are” was the spark, that pointed me in the direction, that God was real, not sure if that is what makes people or me born of the spirit. Once again, I also understand why the physical death is not real but I don’t think I am born again because of that knowledge. I could be wrong of course…
That’s funny…no disrespect, because the questions, I am receiving are coming to me internally (I believe from God) and I have been trying to find the answers to them externally, by researching, talking with Christians etc. For example, in answer to the question “What Am I” the answer I finally arrived at, is that, “I am a part, of the living God”
It is difficult to trust the external information, when it does not resonate with the internal information. I have indeed found many answers to many things from this process but finding the understanding to these internal questions, has been something I have had to work at. I haven’t had the luxury of being given the understanding but I do feel that God has pointed me in the right direction on many occasions. I don’t claim to know everything, but I do have understanding in many areas, in fact a lot of what you have written, I understand and agree with.
I’m starting to lean towards the fact that a lot ,but not all, of the Christian doctrine, is wrong and that I do not trust it in it's entirety. I guess you could say I have given up on certain Christian doctrines but I have not given up on God because I know he is real.
I hear what you are saying but at the same time, the very reason people join a forum or a site like this…is to search for answers to questions, share information and ideas, opinions etc. I guess like yourself, I don’t really trust men either but that doesn’t mean, I can’t take on board what they are saying and judge it for myself.
Also if everyone on this forum posts an answer to my question, I would like to think that a particular answer would stand out or that at least one type of answer, would appear more than the others. That doesn’t automatically mean it would be the truth, but it could mean something or lead to something.
Your are right though, the anwers do lie within us but sometimes it has to be awakened and this is normally done externally.
Yes I absolutely believe this can happen, no doubt about it…
I suppose I am looking for little reinforcements that confirm the truth myself, as is everyone, on this entire site…
Speaking of reinforcements and signs…this clip really seemed to speak to me a few days ago …
Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed
An Oracle
1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.
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10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
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Isaiah 32:15 Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
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Joel 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions
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