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Originally posted by kingofmd
God being the loving God that He is, will not force anyone to serve Him, nor will He obliterate them from existance for not serving Him. The soul/consciousness is not material, so, how can it be destroyed anyways? It just so happens that everything that we consider "good" comes from God, ie love, joy, peace, happiness, light etc. Logically then, a place without God would be full of fear, torment, pain, suffering, misery, hmm sounds like hell?
Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
Suddenly the bathwater looks dirty and the whole bathroom is demolished along with the baby. I know this first hand...you hate God
Originally posted by saint4God
"More proof of Hell:
Originally posted by mwm1331
The idea of sinners going to everlasting hellfire does not appear anywhere in the bible.
Mark 6:43 (this is Jesus talking here) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life criplled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire."
Originally posted by bsbray11
So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.
Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
This is something I think about often. The churches ( catholic, baptist, pentacostal, lutheran, evangelical e.c.t ) refuse to drop not only the word "hell" ( which is actually translated from sheol, gehenna, tartarus and hades throught the bible respectively ) but maintain the doctrine of eternal punishment where, even if there were a traditional hell ( tradition of men I might add ) it could not be eternal...why? Because "forever and ever" and "everlasting" shouldn't even be in there! The words (greek) are aion snd aionios....which mean age,ages or pertaining to an age, not eternity!
Some might say "well then what about everlasting life?" That is indeed "age abiding life" but the new testament speaks of Immortality or "deathlessness" (greek). Would the unsaved being given immortality and suffering eternal destruction make any sense? Does it make any sense that a God that claims he "is love" would literally burn anyone while condemning the action of burning children in the OT? Does it make any sense for an infinite God to exact infinite pain, suffering and hopelessness for Christ on finite beings?
Also, many verses suggest all will be saved eventually ( while not everyone will enter the kingdom as that is different from salvation )
from www.tentmaker.org/.../Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
Lamentations 3:31-33(NKJ)For the Lord will not cast off forever.Though He causes grief,Yet He will show compassion According to the multitude of His mercies.For He does not afflict willingly,Nor grieve the children of men.
Acts 3:21tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore ALL things. Furthermore, both Old Testament and New Testament writers and prophets tell us:that all earth’s families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham’s “Seed” (Genesis 12:3; Acts 3:23; Romans 4:13).
Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that all earth’s families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;that success or failure at keeping God’s law has no bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law cannot cancel this covenant (Galatians 3:17-21);that all earth’s families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Psalm 22:27-28);
that all flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Psalm 66:3-4, 145:21; Revelation 5:13);that His tender mercies are over ALL His works, and ALL His works shall praise Him (Psalm 145:9-10);that God’s anger is momentary but His mercy is everlasting (Psalm 103:8-10, 136; Micah 7:18);that mankind shall be blessed in Christ (Psalm 72:17);
that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegianceand give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring gloryto our loving Father. (Isaiah 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Philippians 2:9-11);
that no one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:3)
you can read the rest here at www.tentmaker.org/.../Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
That last part is very significant...no one can confess Jesus as lord with out the Holy Spirit. So how will every knee bow and tongue confess? Well according to John Hagee, Jesus will break the knees of those do not kneel....what insanity. So a conspiracy of ignorance continues while the profound truth is stifled, ridiculed and attempted to be picked apart.
Aside from the theological end of things...does anyone think the "conspiracy " is motivated by fear of an overwhelming psychological and spiritual effect that shedding the doctrine of hell might possibly allow? I tend to think it would be positive in light of a relationship with Christ and would make a believers outlook far brighter...dangerously brighter for TPTB.
[edit on 17-10-2009 by SmokeandShadow]
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by bsbray11
So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
...The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:10-22
[edit on 17-10-2009 by saint4God]
Originally posted by bsbray11
Originally posted by saint4God
"More proof of Hell:
Originally posted by mwm1331
The idea of sinners going to everlasting hellfire does not appear anywhere in the bible.
Mark 6:43 (this is Jesus talking here) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life criplled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire."
So, even for someone who takes Bible scripture as 100% truth, you have shown a passage where hellfire is said to be eternal, but nothing about individuals/souls/whatever being sent there for all eternity after death. That's a big difference.
For myself, scripture never justifies itself. Ie, the whole self-referencing thing doesn't cut butter. One could equally defend Hinduism on such grounds, using only Hindu texts and arguing solely from a firm Hindu viewpoint, etc.
Originally posted by kingofmd
Hell is God's appointed place for people that want nothing to do with Him, and would like Him completely out of their lives. God being the loving God that He is, will not force anyone to serve Him, nor will He obliterate them from existance for not serving Him. The soul/consciousness is not material, so, how can it be destroyed anyways? It just so happens that everything that we consider "good" comes from God, ie love, joy, peace, happiness, light etc. Logically then, a place without God would be full of fear, torment, pain, suffering, misery, hmm sounds like hell?
This argument reminds me of a spoiled teen that chooses to leave the comfort of their parent's house because they are sick of the rules. Are the parents evil, or to blame that the child is living in filth and eating garbage, when they chose to not live comfortably? No. This is why there will be no excuses in the end, because we make our bed, and God lets us sleep in them.
[edit on 17-10-2009 by kingofmd]