The Cross, the Flag and American Idolatry

Here is an interesting and pointed argument worth reading ATS.

tpjmagazine.us...

regards

[edit on 28-9-2009 by djusdjus]

I grew up in the very buckle of the "Bible Belt", raised by a military father, surrounded by uncles, cousins, and family friends who were almost all veterans, and listening to preachers from some of the most fundamentalist parts of the deep South. You know the kind, no doubt....the shouting, pacing, pulpit-hammering sort so often caricatured in film and literature. Having thus placed my 'credentials' as a fundamentalist redneck (33rd degree) on the table, I have to ask where in God's green (or, in Arizona, tan) earth did the author of that piece hear someone drop this line:

“The King James Version of the Holy Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God.” Then they add, “The King James was good enough for Paul and Silas, so it’s good enough for me,”

in a serious vein? The bit about the KJV being good enough for Paul and Silas is the punch line to one of the oldest jokes in the Southern Baptist Convention, and yet this person seems to think it's a serious belief among Christians of some variety. Somebody's humor meter needs new batteries.

I also think the author might want to look at a more representative sampling of "fundamentalist Christians" than she seems to have. Using the "Mega-churches" as examples of typical Christianity is no more accurate than holding up McDonalds as an example of a fine dining establishment. Might I suggest to the author that a trip to a few small-town / country churches in the South might be in order? I can already tell her (I'm assuming that "Loren" is a female name, but I"ve seen enough odd names to not be totally sure) that if my 40+ years of experience are any guide, she'll find the vast majority of folks there to be highly skeptical of those mega-churches and televangelists, friendly, hard-working (or, these days, hard out-of-working) folks with a strong love of country, God, and community...or maybe I was just hanging about with the wrong crowd.

Yes, you can find some really reprehensible folks in church...I'll go ahead and preemptively mention the Phelps family / Westborough Baptist Church just to save someone else the trouble. Before you use the Phelps crew as examples of 'right wing Christianity at its finest', I'd suggest that you ask a few members of other churches their opinions of the Not-So-Reverend Phelps. It's almost certain to be colorful.

The author seems determined to take any and every sign of patriotism among churchgoers as a sign that said churchgoers are either fascists or idolaters. It seems to never cross her mind (or at least not the keyboard on her word processor) that it's possible to love God and country...or, to use a slightly out-of-context quote from an old, old source, to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's".

Now that I've delivered the sermon, the ushers will circulate among you with the collection plates, and Brother Anonymous will then lead us in a Benediction.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Brother Stormhammer]

reply to post by djusdjus


I am in agreement with the author. Patriotism in my view is a fascist notion that speaks to those people that put themselves above all others simply because they hold a bible in their hands.

There are many Christians and Muslims that I believe rise above those of their kind that can be easily led, but I see them as a minority voice even though their numbers may be greater than those extreme right wing fundamentalist puppets.

Let's face it...people that so blindly believe the writings of men thousands of years ago with not a shred of proof that what they preach is the truth can be used by the powers that be do do anything. Blind faith is a dangerous thing and the third Reich is a good example.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by djusdjus

 

I am in agreement with the author. Patriotism in my view is a fascist notion that speaks to those people that put themselves above all others simply because they hold a bible in their hands.

Patriotism has nothing to do with fascism, unless you're willing to define every government structure on Earth as some form of fascism, in which case, it's going to be hard to discuss things, since we'd be speaking two different languages. I've met, befriended, and otherwise interacted with patriotic Canadians, Russians, Australians, Irishmen, Germans, Japanese, and Americans in my time. They loved their countries deeply, and while some of those countries might have been fascist, others obviously aren't...in a couple of cases, it's debatable that they have an organized government at all! *grin*

It has even less to do with theocracy. I've known patriots that were agnostic, and atheist, even here in the (according to the author) Bible-thumpin' Theocratic States of America. Go figure.

I think you *might* have 'patriotism' confused with 'jingoism'.

There are many Christians and Muslims that I believe rise above those of their kind that can be easily led, but I see them as a minority voice even though their numbers may be greater than those extreme right wing fundamentalist puppets.

Let's face it...people that so blindly believe the writings of men thousands of years ago with not a shred of proof that what they preach is the truth can be used by the powers that be do do anything. Blind faith is a dangerous thing and the third Reich is a good example.

How can a numerical majority be a minority? My inner mathematician is having a nervous breakdown trying to figure that one out. If you're going by the volume of the shouting, I'm afraid that you're getting an invalid sample. After all, just because *one* toddler is screaming because his diaper is soiled, you can't make the blanket assumption that, because he's making more racket than the other 20 kids in the nursery, that the majority of them have soiled diapers...you can only really conclude that he has good lungs, and motivation. *grin*

I'm also trying to figure out how the Third Reich is an example of a state founded on blind faith. It was founded on blind nationalism (see 'jingoism', above) and a charismatic leader...that's a dangerous combination, whether it's cloaked in the robes of a priest or the uniform of a soldier, but it has nothing to do, in itself, with either faith or patriotism, though it can play up to either, or to both.

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer


I should have used the word "Nationalistic" but these days with the brand of nationalistic patriotism that surfaced during the Bush regime has certainly muddled today's definition of patriotism, and I use the definition we see in practice today.

Ahhh the nuances of language. I stated that the larger numbers of the religious have a minority voice. The more fundamental are louder and crass therefore drowning out those more moderate voices.

Your analogy of the screaming baby may have made sense a few years ago, but that screaming baby has taken over the nursery.

I look forward to the day when Christians and Muslims stand up and demand that their spiritual lives be separated from the machinations of governments, and those that follow no particular religious organization have a government that rejects the ideology of primitive unforgiving beliefs that were developed during the darkest ages of our world.

There are several brands of blind faith, children have blind faith in their parents,so called constitutionalists that can not accept the fact the the year we live in is not 1776 and blind faith keeps them voting for those individuals that have concern only for their own power while flushing my beloved country and countrymen down the toilet. And then there are those that can not fathom the idea that god may not after all have one particular gender, or care less what happens in a neighborhood that kicked him out long ago.

I can love my country without patriotism. I can also love the land of my ancestors wishing them as much good will as my fellow countrymen.

The marriage of religion and government is the worst kind of machination.

The constitution and the bill of rights have not given away to martial
law,not yet.Until that happens,I am a proud,flag- waving,Bible- reading,
gun- bearing,patriot grandma of the united states!
My Bible and my flag, don't get burned by anyone,foreign or domestic!

God Bless America,land that I love!If you don't like my country,don't
try to change it to what you want.Pack your bags and your visas and
don't let the door hit your behind on the way out!

reply to post by mamabeth


So if I think that my country could stand some improvements, such as taking the bible out of any political office.. given your definition of a proud American would I be able to stay?

reply to post by Witness2008


When the Bible is removed,this country will fall!

reply to post by Witness2008


Sure you can stay!Don't try and remove my Bible and my flag,we'll
get along just fine!

reply to post by mamabeth


Your bible does not belong in the halls of congress, the Oval office or any other office that sees to the rights of the atheists, Muslims, or Buddhists that also call America their home.

Fly your flag where ever your heart pleases...I don't see anyone other than these crazy, frightened conservatives trying to change that.

Our little democracy has of late been showing signs of true progression and I'm very excited to see how far we can go.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by mamabeth

 

Your bible does not belong in the halls of congress, the Oval office or any other office that sees to the rights of the atheists, Muslims, or Buddhists that also call America their home.

Fly your flag where ever your heart pleases...I don't see anyone other than these crazy, frightened conservatives trying to change that.

Our little democracy has of late been showing signs of true progression and I'm very excited to see how far we can go.

One of these days you will know the truth!I hope you learn the truth before
it is too late.You take God and the Bible out of our country,we will fall.
Who do you think allowed all these politicians to be in power,the people?
No,It was God who allowed it!Proverbs 16:33,"The lot is cast into the lap;
but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord".

Well, I do consider both the Flag and Cross to be examples of Idolatry.

Nationalism under the guise of "Patriotism" to a symbol is utter ridiculousness. Even loyalty to a Nation or a Government are rather ridiculous IMHO. To me, true Patriotism lies in a willingness to live by and die by the principle beliefs a Nation was founded upon.

Worshiping a Cross instead of worshiping the tenets of belief that the Christian Religion was based upon are pretty ridiculous and misguided too. Although I may find Dogmatic Religions to seem rather ridiculous in and of themselves, it's not my place to judge another if they feel that a Dogmatic Religion such as Christianity is good enough for them. And so long as I'm accorded the same right to worship or believe as I choose to believe, then it's all good in my book. However, if you don't walk the talk and just rally beneath a symbol, then I reserve the right to ridicule...and expect the same in return.

The United States never was a Christian Nation, although this land was a sanctuary to Protestants fleeing persecution in Europe, our Nation was intended to be a tolerant Nation that protected the religious beliefs of all Religions (or lack thereof).

Likewise, I can't imagine that our forefathers that fought for Independence from British rule ever expected their Flag to be so sacrosanct that it would allow the Freedoms they fought for to be given lesser status than it.

The day that I am persecuted for trampling and spitting on a Cross or a Flag will be the day that I know that Freedom has been lost, and as a true Patriot must fight to restore those Liberties, not just for myself, but for all.

Do not confuse the trappings for the substance lest one fall prey to foolishness! To worship a Cross is no substitute for being a Christian, just as saluting the Flag is no substitute for being a Patriot.

One of these days you will know the truth!I hope you learn the truth before
it is too late.You take God and the Bible out of our country,we will fall.
Who do you think allowed all these politicians to be in power,the people?
No,It was God who allowed it!Proverbs 16:33,"The lot is cast into the lap;
but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord".



Your blanket statements are what I find most frightening in this free society we share. You seem to know the thoughts of God himself...the only mistake we can make over here in the new world is to follow the example of the Islamic Fundamentalists that dictate the mind and intentions of God for the whole of their society. Pretty audacious don't ya think.

Patriotism is an admirable trait.

Most people forget you can love your country and hate your government at the same time.

reply to post by djusdjus


And what are your opinions on the subject?

fraterormus said what was on my mind... but much more eloquently.


From the OP article:

I believe a significant portion of fundamentalists today have become seduced by a form of symbol worship. “Idolatry” is defined as blind and excessive devotion to a person or thing. If an individual or group of individuals are caught up in a collective act of blindly venerating the same object or person, this common bond is defined as a “cult.”

I believe this same fundamentalist cult is also involved in blind and excessive hatred of a person. I posted a thread about it here.

Your bible does not belong in the halls of congress, the Oval office or any other office that sees to the rights of the atheists, Muslims, or Buddhists that also call America their home.

I think that is perfectly stated. Regardless of what many people seem to believe, the United States is NOT a Christian nation. I don't care whether are far left, far right, Democrat, Republican, Independent, or whatever. Making political decisions, and passing laws based on religious beliefs can only harm this country.

Don't try and remove my Bible and my flag,we'll get along just fine!

I would never try to remove anyone's bible. I believe in your right to keep the bible of your God, just like I support the right of Jews to keep theirs, Muslims to keep theirs, and so forth. I would ask all of you though to keep your d@mn bibles out the lives of me and my children.

reply to post by Witness2008


I am not a muslim and I resent being referred to as one!I am a Bible
believing baptist.

reply to post by Witness2008


You can know God's thoughts,read the Bible!

reply to post by mamabeth


I am certain of the fact that I did not refer to you as a Muslim.

You don't know the thoughts of God anymore than my dog does, actually my dog could have a clue as to what god thinks but how in the world could she tell me.

Don't you find it curious that God saw fit to speak to a handful of men over two thousand years ago leaving the rest of us to trust the writings of those few men with absolutely no proof what so ever that those handful of men were not whacked out of their minds on '___'

In 1892,The U.S. Supreme court made this ruling in a case.(Church of
The Holy Trinity VSThe United States)
"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation,
state or national,because this is a religious people.This is a Christian
nation."