Data About 9/11 I'd really like to see...

This is just a wishlist, I know, and although some data may not be available, subpoenas could make a dent in some areas. This is probably not my last post listing specifics in this thread... I'm sure more will occur to me. Please feel free to chime in with your own.

#1: All the Pentagon videotape.

Well, it's the obvious one, isn't it? Mind you, Craig Ranke did commendable work with just the Citgo footage... Anyway, a lot's been said about it and I'm not about to rehash it here. Onward to...

#2: Airport CCTV footage of all the alleged passengers, including the hijackers.

From what I've read, there were rather a lot of Raytheon employees on the passenger lists. (Actually, at this point, something comes into focus: it explains why the passenger lists don't contain the names of the hijackers. We'll come back to this.)

Suppose they were people who'd found out too much, or would be able to testify to things they'd seen and perhaps not understood at the time, but would in the aftermath?

So... there's a lot of CCTV footage in airports. We've seen a couple of indistinct shots of the hijackers boarding a connecting plane IIRC, but I'd like to be able to place all of the alleged passengers and, as far as possible, track their progress through the airport. Who was a "real" passenger? Were they all there? If not, who was missing?

My guess is that there would be some "collateral damage" - real people. Then, perhaps, some Raytheon people... but maybe they weren't all there. Perhaps some had been killed beforehand and their names were simply added to the list.

But if we could see the CCTV footage, we'd know a lot more about it.

It's almost certainly gone now, perhaps spirited away by the men with suits and badges.

And it does provide one possible scenario to explain the passenger lists. They had to have a final list of people who were to be on the flight, compiled at the last minute. It's likely they'd think that the hijackers' names weren't needed because they already knew them: and not required for the purposes of that list, which would have been more about whose families they'd have to keep an eye on.

then that list got released and no-one thought to put the hijackers' names back in.

#3: The Precise Movements and all communications of certain political figures on that day.

And, in fact, for many days either side... nothing too intrusive, you know... just the kind of attention these mean-spirited shameless parasites want to turn on us. Except they're the ones who should be under close scrutiny because your (unconstitutionally levied) taxes pay their wages. If the manager at a wal-mart can measure employees' bathroom time...

Now I'm sure we can all put our heads together to form a list: my first nominees are obvious: Dick Cheney, G.H.W.Bush, and Porter Goss.



[edit on 26-9-2009 by rich23]

reply to post by rich23


I don't think it ever becomes to exhaustive hearing questions in regard to 9/11. Maybe to the government, and the Elite puppeteers behind them, but to the intelligent People it never does. You stress the CCTV cameras, and simply releasing that, should the govt. explanation be legit would end all the speculations, but they don't.....
S&F

Originally posted by rich23
From what I've read, there were rather a lot of Raytheon employees on the passenger lists. (Actually, at this point, something comes into focus: it explains why the passenger lists don't contain the names of the hijackers. We'll come back to this.)

As soon as you said this, you've lost all your credibility. The names of the hijackers *are* on the passenger lists. This "they're not on the passenger lists" bit comes from the list CNN released showing the names of the VICTIMS, which obviously don't include the names of the hijackers for the same reason they don't include the names of SS guards falling out of guard towers on the roster of people killed at Auschwitz. The names are on the actual passenger lists as released by the airlines.

Suppose they were people who'd found out too much, or would be able to testify to things they'd seen and perhaps not understood at the time, but would in the aftermath?

You can "suppose" the attack was staged by space aliens from the planet Nudnig of the 23rd dimension, too, if you'd like. In the end, you still gotta prove it, otherwise it's just yet another unsubstaniated statement.

reply to post by GoodOlDave



Detailed links to support this, please, with primary sources.

reply to post by rich23


Links with references

www.911myths.com...



Not that expect you to believe it - will find some excuse.....

Originally posted by rich23

From what I've read, there were rather a lot of Raytheon employees on the passenger lists.

I've often speculated about this.

I believe a lot of the people to die on the planes, civilian contractor and military personnel that is, were in positions that would be required for 9/11 to be carried out the way some believe it may have been.

Some of the positions are..

William E. Caswell – 54, was a third-generation physicist whose work at the Navy was so classified that his family knew very little about what he did each day.

John D. Yamnicky Sr. – 71, of Waldorf, Md., was a retired naval aviator, but worked as a defense contractor for Veridian Corp. Involved in many black box operations.

Wilson Flagg – 62, of Millwood, Virginia. Pentagon consultant, and retired Navy Admiral and pilot with American Airlines before his retirement.

Stanley Hall – 68, of Rancho Palos Verdes, California. Director of program management with Raytheon Electronics Warfare, helped develop and build anti-radar technology. “Our dean of electronic warfare,” said a colleague at Raytheon.

Bryan Jack – 48, of Alexandria, Virginia. Head of programming and fiscal economics in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, where he was a top budget analyst. He had worked at the Pentagon for 23 years. Colleagues say Jack, 48, was a brilliant mathematician and he was headed to California to give a lecture at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey. His wife is a high-ranking member of the military.

Keller, Chandler – 30, was a lead Propulsion Engineer and a Project Manager with Boeing Satellite Systems.
Dong Lee – 48, of Leesburg, Virginia, was an engineer with Boeing.
Ruben Ornedo – 39, of Los Angeles, was a propulsion engineer with Boeing. Born in the Philippines, he graduated from University of California, Los Angeles.

Robert Penninger – 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with defense contractor BAE Systems since 1990.

Robert R. Ploger III – 59, and his wife, Zandra Cooper, of Annandale, Virginia. He was a Navy commander, and a manager in the systems and software architecture department with Lockheed Martin Corp.

John Sammartino – 37, an engineer at XonTech Inc. in Rosslyn, he boarded American Airlines Flight 77 to attend a conference in Los Angeles. Out of college, Sammartino was hired as an engineer at the Naval Research Lab; he had worked 11 years at XonTech, a research and development firm involved in defense issues.

Leonard Taylor – of Reston, Va. was a technical manager at XonTech Inc., a research and development firm specializing in sensor technologies for defense and industry.
Vicki Yancey – a former naval electronics technician. She worked for Vredenburg, a Washington-based defense contractor. She was bound for a business conference in Reno.
In 1991, she wrote a letter to The Washington Post bringing attention to the demise of the one-income family. It led to her making an appearance before the Senate Finance Committee, where she testified over the struggles of middle-class families; mainstream media followed up on her story.

Charles Burlingame – A 1971 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, Charles F. Burlingame III was captain of American Airlines Flight 77.

Mark Burlingame said his brother was in the Navy Reserve and had worked in the same area of the Pentagon where the airliner crashed. When he was in the Navy, he developed anti-terror strategies, and helped draft the Pentagon’s emergency response plan in case it was ever hit by a airliner.

Also, the Pentagon section that was hit housed not only the office with the budget analysts (not sure what the official title or offices would be called) but the Office of Naval Intelligence. If wargames were ongoing rather real or a part of the 9/11 event they surely would have been involved in it.

Interesting points to ponder.

reply to post by thedman


The links in the article you cite don't work, so one can't see the original lists. The story about the passenger lists still doesn't add up.

It seems kind of odd that, after all these years, we don't have any proper lists: the article you refer to admits it. Let alone the problems with the hijackers' identities which aren't mentioned in any of the links.

CBSnews.com dated September 14, 2001...

The Boston Globe reported on its web site Thursday that it had obtained a copy of the complete manifest list of the planes hijacked from Boston.

The Globe said according to the manifest, Mohamed Atta, one of the suspected terrorists, was assigned seat 8D in business class on American Airlines Flight 11, directly across the aisle from Hollywood producer David Angell and his wife, Lynn, who were in seats 8A and 8B, respectively. Seated next to Atta in seat 8G was Abdul Alomari. FBI investigators have searched Alomari's home in Vero Beach.

The Globe reported the passenger list for United Air Lines Flight 175 shows that Marwan Alshehri got on the plane that left Boston and slammed into one of the Manhattan skyscrapers 15 minutes after Flight 11. An FAA pilot directory information spelled his name Marwan Alshehhi.

www.cbsnews.com...

And to try this again...

911myths.com...


It has copies of the manifests themselves...each of which shows the names of the hijackers.

The 9/11 myths page was better than I'd have expected: previous site visits have made me think it was pretty underhanded in the way it dealt with evidence.

But it did make me look up the History Commons timeline on the hijackers...

www.historycommons.org.../11_hijackers=otherHijackers&timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=100

And what do we find?

Shortly after arriving at Washington’s Dulles Airport, from which Flight 77 took off, the FBI confiscates a security tape from a checkpoint through which the hijackers passed before boarding the plane. Airport security manager Ed Nelson will later say: “They pulled the tape right away.… They brought me to look at it. They went right to the first hijacker on the tape and identified him. They knew who the hijackers were out of hundreds of people going through the checkpoints. They would go ‘roll and stop it’ and showed me each of the hijackers.… It boggles my mind that they had already had the hijackers identified.… Both metal detectors were open at that time, and lots of traffic was moving through. So picking people out is hard.… I wanted to know how they had that kind of information. So fast. It didn’t make sense to me.”

Me too. One of the things that really didn't make sense on the day was how the hijackers' names were known so quickly, and how they were deducted from the initial release of the manifests.

But of course if they'd been tracked all along (with the Able Danger team keeping them safe until the day) then this now makes sense.

I'd still like to see those CCTV boarding videos, though, especially as several of the names used were likely identity theft.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
The names of the hijackers *are* on the passenger lists. This "they're not on the passenger lists" bit comes from the list CNN released showing the names of the VICTIMS, which obviously don't include the names of the hijackers for the same reason they don't include the names of SS guards falling out of guard towers on the roster of people killed at Auschwitz.

What a giant load of crap -- this notion that there were two lists -- a "victim's list" and the airline's passenger manifests. Somehow the airlines were supposed to immediately know who the "hijackers" were and not include them on the passenger manifests?

Utterly ridiculous.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
What a giant load of crap -- this notion that there were two lists -- a "victim's list" and the airline's passenger manifests. Somehow the airlines were supposed to immediately know who the "hijackers" were and not include them on the passenger manifests?

Utterly ridiculous.

Just what I thought at first. But look at my post above. The FBI knew exactly whom they were looking for. Have a look at this...

video.google.com...#

It takes a little time, but when he gets into what military exercises were being run that day, and into the function of Able Danger, you might find things begin to make sense.

reply to post by GoldenFleece

What a giant load of crap -- this notion that there were two lists -- a "victim's list" and the airline's passenger manifests. Somehow the airlines were supposed to immediately know who the "hijackers" were and not include them on the passenger manifests?

Utterly ridiculous.

They were on the OFFICAL MANIFEST!

What they were NOT on was the VICTIMS LIST released by Media!

Why do you have a problem understanding this simple concept?

As for VICTIMS LIST.....

Whats so difficult?

Take the flight manifest - remove the crew members, unless you are
on those who believe that they were in on it?

Hijackers were all in 1st class, next to cockpit. Eliminates 3/4 of the the
passengers on plane

Scan for Arabic names - should not be difficult as were only 4-5 per plane

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
As soon as you said this, you've lost all your credibility. The names of the hijackers *are* on the passenger lists.

You mean the hijackers that used fake and phoney paperwork to get into the country and get ID?

Funny how the FBI came up with a list of hijackers so fast when they used fake IDs.

In the end, you still gotta prove it, otherwise it's just yet another unsubstaniated statement.

Actually all anyone has to do is show reasonable doubt in the official story which has and can be done.



[edit on 4-4-2010 by REMISNE]

great thread congrats, yeah, but I think they wont give us that type of information, since it would definitely prove or not prove the official history

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

What a giant load of crap -- this notion that there were two lists -- a "victim's list" and the airline's passenger manifests. Somehow the airlines were supposed to immediately know who the "hijackers" were and not include them on the passenger manifests?

Utterly ridiculous.

They were on the OFFICAL MANIFEST!

That's a bold-faced lie and everyone knows it. There were NO Arab names on the manifests. Matter of fact, ex-Navy officer Thomas Olmstead filed a FOIA request to obtain an official autopsy list. Guess what? STILL no Arabs on the list:

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
by Dr. Thomas R. Olmsted
Global Research, April 30, 2006

I am an ex Naval line officer and a psychiatrist in private practice in New Orleans, a Christian and homeschool dad. It troubled me a great deal that we rushed off to war on the flimsiest of evidence. I considered various ways to provide a smoking gun of who and why Sept 11th happened. Astute observers noticed right away that there were no Arabic sounding names on any of the flight manifests of the planes that “crashed” on that day.

A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. It is my opinion that the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable.

When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, that airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous job and identified nearly all the bodies on November 16th 2001.

The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were “passengers” on the plane. The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has 58. They did not explain how they were able to tell “victims” bodies from “hijacker” bodies. In fact, from the beginning NO explanation has been given for the extra five suggested in news reports except that the FBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference, and that makes it so.

Now, being the trusting sort, I figured that the government would want to quickly dispel any rumors so we could get on with the chore of kicking Osama/Saddam’s butt (weren’t these originally two different people?). It seemed simple to me... produce the names of all the bodies identified by the AFIP and compare it with the publicized list of passengers. So, I sent a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the AFIP and asked for an expedited response, because we were getting ready to send our boys to war on the pretext that Osama/Sadaam had done the deed. Fourteen months later, a few US soldiers dead, many Iraqi civilians pushing up daisies, and I finally get the list. Believe me that they weren’t a bit happy to give it up, and I really have no idea why they choose now to release it.

No Arabs wound up on the morgue slab; however, three ADDITIONAL people not listed by American Airline sneaked in. I have seen no explanation for these extras. I did give American the opportunity to “revise” their original list, but they have not responded. The new names are: Robert Ploger, Zandra Ploger, and Sandra Teague. The AFIP claims that the only “passenger” body that they were not able to identify is the toddler, Dana Falkenberg, whose parents and young sister are on the list of those identified.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


I don't know about the veracity of Dr. Olmsted. He confuses the numbers, even in his remarks there.

Here are pages 1 and 2 of the actual AA 77 manifest:

Page 1
Page 2

From this site:

flight77.info...

There is a great deal of misinformation/mistakes floating around on this issue, and is seen quite often right here on the ATS Forum.

It is vitally important to cut through the detritus, and focus on facts. Instead of simply repeating something, from a source, that isn't reliable or verifiable.

There are dispassionate resources out there, that can be vetted.

Much so-called "info", however, suffer from outlandish and overgrown hyperbole, in many instances.

I just saw, for instance, yet another blooper, regarding the seating capacity of American Airlines' B-757s. The site said "239 passengers". (Its focus topic was the low load factor).

Well...certain operators that may have an all-coach configuration might be able to cram that many in....but not at AAL:

Aircraft Seating Chart(s)
B757 Domestic
B757 International
________________________________

Characteristics
...[snip]...
Total Seats 188

www.aa.com...

reply to post by weedwhacker

You're quibbling over minutaie.

The fact is, there were NO Arab names on the original flight manifests and NO Arab names on the official autopsy list provided by the government. And it wasn't a "victim's autopsy list."

FOIA response, page 1

Page 2

Page 3

BTW, your "actual AA 77 manifest" first appeared on a blogger site -- YEARS after 9/11. No one even knows where it originally came from:

Terry McDermott, author of Perfect Soldiers which is about the hijackers, obtained the passenger manifests for Flight 77 and the other flights. Mike from 911myths.com obtained copies from Terry McDermott and posted them online.

911myths.com What were you saying about posting material from unreliable and unverifiable sources?


[edit on 4/4/2010 by GoldenFleece]

reply to post by GoldenFleece

...there were NO Arab names on the original flight manifests...

Sorry? Did you look at the links?

The link to Page 1 --- I just checked it. It is a photocopy of a name manifest for AAL 77.

First name there, is 'Hanjour"

Then, looking down the list, I saw at #12, "Alhazmi"

Sound Arabic enough to me.

Guess I could waste time to find the other three....

As to autopsies...still digesting that, but there is likely a logical reason for the claim of "no Arab autopsies" that is explainable. There are probably ATS members who know the answer, right off the tops of their heads....

Body part fragments, with no known DNA match, from samples supplied by passengers' and crews' families? Well, then those would likely be the 'unknowns', and therefore the five hijackers. Wouldn't it seem logical?

Now, how hard might it be to track down THEIR families (assuming, as suggested, that they may have used false identities) for proper DNA samples.

I think there were plenty of other, mostly not publicized, paper trails to indicate who they were, after the fact.

Likely, also, a big reason for the perception of any "cover-up" on this topic, as I've often stated (in opinion). They "fell through the cracks", and it is an embarrassment. Potential career-ender, for many people in Government...the intel services, etc.

Hence, the whiff of "something not right" (the old, tried-and-true "CYA" ploy) is emitted, and then outlandish, increasingly convoluted and imagined scenarios get cooked up, by conspiracy-minded types....and the Internet is the vehicle, to make all these most incredible "theories" go viral, across the Web.

reply to post by GoldenFleece

911myths.com What were you saying about posting material from unreliable and unverifiable sources?

How are "911myths" any less reliable than the other site (where you lifted the Terry McDermott reference)?? AND, the same site that posted the seating charts, and passenger names, for the Moussani trial?

Here, this is where you got the McDermott comment from, "911research.wtc7.net":

According to the 911myths.com website the fax images were obtained from the FBI by Terry McDermott while researching his book Perfect Soldiers. The faxes, reproduced below, include the names of the alleged hijackers.

And the link.


Let me tell you about the photocopied/faxed manifests.

Those of you who have never worked behind the scenes at an airline won't understand, but just about any airline employee will recognize those, and they are disctinctive.

Airlines use very cheap dot-matrix printers, on very cheap paper.

Next time you fly, when you're at the ticket counter, or at a gate, you might hear the printers clacking away.

Those "manifests" from the fax/photocopy are more correctly referred to, by those in the industry, as a "Name List". Might be different pet terms, depending on airline company.

At MY company they would print them up for the Flight Attendants. Look at the codes, on those images. It tells the F/As what kind of ticket fare basis the passengeris booked on, it identifies the non-revs (employees/family/OAEs --- Other Ailrine Employees --- riding on passes, and what type of pass they are on).

Has the passenger's frequent flyer status. The names? F/As working in First Class are supposed to kiss-a$$ and call the customers by their names, especially high-mileage customers...

When we non-rev, we're supposed to understand that we DON'T get a first choice of meal (if one is scheduled, and offered). That is another reason to identify everyone, for the F/A's information.

See?

It's all there, if you know how to interpret it.

Doubt very highly that it would all be made up. This is why people with these 'conspiracy' ideas aren't taken credibly by those of us you know a lot more about airline procedures, from having worked there for many years.

Even the FLIGHT PLANS we use in the cockpit come from those same cheap printers! They use the kind of paper with all the little holes on the edges, for the sprocket wheels...they're perforated, and you can tear those bits off...


[edit on 4 April 2010 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Now, how hard might it be to track down THEIR families (assuming, as suggested, that they may have used false identities) for proper DNA samples.

Since seven of the hijackers are reportedly still living, let's ask THEM for their DNA! I've fantasized about making a documentary for the 10th anniversary of 9/11. It would be called, "The 9/11 Hijackers -- Where Are They Now?" and would contain interviews with the "hijackers." Heck, one of them is a fellow airline pilot for Saudi Airlines who walked into a US embassy, proclaiming his innocence.

Where do you get this notion that ANY of the "hijackers" used false identities? Their names, photos, nationalities, dates of birth and personal information were splashed across newspapers and TVs around the world. After that BBC article was published saying some of the hijackers were still alive, the FBI's Robert Mueller said several of their identities were in question, but they never revised or updated the list. Gee, I wonder why not? I guess it just wasn't important enough to pursue.