The Desperation and Dangers of the Far-Right Extreme Evangelical Sub-Culture

This interview with Frank Shaeffer (Former life-long Republican and author of "Crazy for God") was on Rachel Maddow last night and I was glad I caught it. He lays out some of the dangers of the fundamentalist/Anti-Obama/“birther” sub-culture. For example 35% of New Jersey "conservatives" say that Obama is or might be the Antichrist. Put that number together with the single-mindedness of a radical fundamentalist Christian who claims a “usurper” is in our White House… And you have a potentially very dangerous brew.

YouTube Video

The messages that really stuck with me are the following:

Those of us who come from the evangelical subculture have been weaned with our mother's milk on a changing cast list of villains. It might be Kennedy to one generation, Obama to the next. But I think the larger point this brings up is that the mainstream, not just media, but culture doesn't sufficiently take stock of the fact that within our culture, we have a subculture, which is literally a fifth column of insanity, that is bred from birth through home school, Christian school, Evangelical College, whatever, to reject facts as a matter of faith.
...
Rachel: How do you work to move people off of that position? It doesn't seem like facts are relevant in trying to move people away from these beliefs...

Shaeffer: You don't work to move them off this position. You move past them. Look, a village cannot reorganize village life to suit the village idiot. [...] We have a village idiot in this country. It's called Fundamentalist Christianity. And until we move past these people and [...] until the Republican Leadership has the guts to stand up and say, "It would be better not to have a Republican Party than have a party that caters to the village idiot", there's gonna be no end in sight.
...
This subculture has, as its fundamentalist faith, that they distrust facts [...] The Republican Party is totally enthralled to this subculture, to the extent that there is no Republican Party. There is a fundamentalist subculture, which has become a cult. It’s fed red meat by buffoons like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and other people who are just not terribly bright themselves and they are talking to even stupider people.

This really opened my eyes as to some of the “debates” I have here on ATS. Some of my favorites to debate are the birthers. But I realized last night that I have this idea that if I present enough facts, someone will see them… I now realize that facts DO NOT MATTER in the least to these people. Their FAITH does. Faith that Obama was born elsewhere. Anywhere. Faith that he is a usurper. Faith that he is the Antichrist. And faith that what Glenn Beck says is the Truth…

This movement is a cult. And their leaders are Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and now, Orly Taitz. I must move past these people and stop trying to present facts. To continue to do what I have been doing is to do the same thing as the atheists who are always trying to use facts to convince the religious fanatics that their God (in whom they have an enormous faith) does not exist!

The future looks mighty interesting.

Edited to replace with Youtube video and correct a fact.


[edit on 17-9-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

Yes, many of the far right extreme sadly are so call evangelicans, many fall into the radical fundamentalist.

But they are a small group but very vocal.

Because they are so vocal and tend to sensationalize stories people tend to see the propaganda as true regardless if is a lie or not or the so call facts are nothing than fiction.

One thing that you have to understand is who is behind their pursue of propaganda, many are big groups with large pockets.

After all the far rigth in government are bought by big corporate groups and they are probably the ones financing everything that is been pushed in the media, the streets and the INTERNET.

This is not a surprise, it doesn't surprise me, after all I am in awe of how much money and funds from private interest goes to garbage propaganda when it can go to something better and more useful.

Thank you for this BH. I've been repeating this very thing over and over again on various threads. Peoplpe just don't seem to understand that alot of this 'greassroots' uprising is really a well-orchestrated movement by the lunatic fringe. Thye're all being used. Unfortunately, they think WE'RE the sheeple.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

For example 35% of New Jersey conservatives say that Obama is or might be the Antichrist.

This means that 65%, more than half of New Jersey conservatives, don't believe that Obama is the Antichrist, right?

I wonder what the numbers were for Bush, Clinton, etc. I bet they were similar. For every president, there is always a percentage of Christians that think that the president is the Antichrist. That's nothing new. In fact, many of these same "fundamentalists" were yelling and screaming calling W the Antichrist. Of course, we don't hear about that though.

Put that number together with the single-mindedness of a radical fundamentalist Christian who claims a “usurper” is in our White House… And you have a potentially very dangerous brew.

So, what exactly is this number of "single-minded radical fundamental Christians" who claim that there is an usurper in the White House? Or, are we just saying that anyone that protests, is a "birther", and says these off the wall things is a fundamental evangelical Christian now? Please, that is simply not the case.

But I realized last night that I have this idea that if I present enough facts, someone will see them… I now realize that facts DO NOT MATTER in the least to these people.

Each side has facts. I'm not saying that either side is right, but, simply because you present them facts, while they have answers back for that, doesn't mean that people are going to just accept the facts that you present. You have to refute what they have as fact.

Of course, in doing so, you shouldn't take the attitude of Mr. Schaeffer and call people buffoons, village idiots, and mock the way people choose to live because they don't see the world in the same shade of orange as you do.

It's not that people of faith don't want facts. People just shouldn't expect them to easily flip one not entirely provable believe, like believing in God, for another not entirely provable believe, like believing God doesn't exist.

reply to post by octotom


The GOP has always been seen as a 'friend' by the far-right. Although I don't believe for a second that the GOP is conservative, they wrap themselves in that mantle and the right buys it. So I doubt you'd find this faction dissing Bush or any of the 'conservative' GOP. That's why they're so deadset against Obama and the Dems. They want their 'friends' back in power like it has been for well over 10yrs.

@ the OP

Wow . . . that is a very ignorant post, and an ignorant source, for that matter.



[edit on 9/17/2009 by Lemon.Fresh]


Mod Note: Reaffirming Our Desire For Productive Political Debate (REVISED)

[edit on 17-9-2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Why do you think I call them funnymentalists?

There is an excellent book on the subject entitled "The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism" by Karen Armstrong. I highly recommend it.

reply to post by jtma508

So I doubt you'd find this faction dissing Bush or any of the 'conservative' GOP.

You can doubt, but I saw, and heard, it myself.

Yes, there are some "leaders" of the fundamentalists that wouldn't say bad things about the government but that's not true for all.

Isnt every politician/figurehead/spokesperson the 'antichrist' to somebody?

Hell, I have it on good authority that Rachael Ray is the antichrist. It's in some dead Frenchman's quatrain. I'd be surprised if less than 10% of the population was on board with that one.

Originally posted by marg6043
Yes, many of the far right extreme sadly are so call evangelicans, many fall into the radical fundamentalist.

But they are a small group but very vocal.

Agreed. The actual number of evangelical "birther" nuts are a small minority. They're just the ones that scream the loudest. I consider myself far-right evangelical, but you won't find me supporting non-sense like Pres. Obama being born in another country. The pastor of our church even declares from the pulpit that all authority comes from God. If Obama is the president then we should respect him and pray for him to make wise decisions. Basically he's telling the nut-jobs that he doesn't want their wack-o opinions in his congregation. There's just no place for that sort of unsupported gossip.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Isnt every politician/figurehead/spokesperson the 'antichrist' to somebody?

Yes, the same group of nut jobs were saying that Ronald Reagan was the anti-Christ because his full name had 6 characters in each word. Ronald Wilson Reagan = 666. If Reagan, the ultimate conservative, is called the anti-Christ then don't expect Obama to escape this label.

Obama isn't being singled out. Bill Clinton was the anti-Christ. Even the Pope doesn't escape being called the anti-Christ by some fringe group.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by dbates]

I'm going to take a middle road on this issue, going by the video presented by Benevolent Heretic.

White House Czar posts I fundamentally disagree with any non Congressional confirmed post within the white house, I feel that these Czar's are a determent to our republic and that there should be a process by which a Czar is appointed. Czar's are not a new thing, (although for some reason the right thinks they are.)

Originally, the title Czar (derived from Caesar) meant Emperor in the European medieval sense of the term, that is, a ruler who claims the same rank as a Roman emperor, with the approval of another emperor or a supreme ecclesiastical official (the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch).

Occasionally, the word could be used to designate other, non-Christian, supreme rulers. In Russia and Bulgaria the imperial connotations of the term were blurred with time and, by the 19th century, it had come to be viewed as an equivalent of King.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

The origin of the White house Czar is nothing new, Obama certainly did not come up with the position, the origin from what I can make of it comes from Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who introduced 12 of such positions in his administration.

To me having a Ceaser (which is the origin of the name Czar or Tzar) is akin to the original crossing the Rubicon. As we all know Rome was a Republic until Ceaser got control of it.

As far as the "birther" theory goes. The vast majority of Americans can't buy into it because the facts just don't support it. World Net Daily, (the right wing version of the National Enquirer) tries as hard as it can to keep this issue to the forefront but most Americans have gotten beyond it especially when the president has already disclosed his birth certificate, authenticated by officials in Hawaii.





The "birther" conspiracy is just ridiculous. It's been done and it's been put to rest.

As far as Obama being the antichrist?





Ok, listen, if you live in New Jersey, you got bigger problems than Obama being the Anti Christ. That's all I am saying about that point.



The people that believe in the wealth of bull dunk that is spewed about Obama are the kinds of people that can get sucked into the Westborough Baptist Church.

Ya there is a whole lotta nuttiness
If you break it down Obama has been accused of being just about everything
that scares American sensibilities, from Hitler to Islam...

Anti christ makes sense IMO, its church, the goal is to listen and absorb, not question.
Magical thinking leads to more magical thinking

Amen

Their reach goes further than you think too.

I've been told by members of the evangelical faiths in Canada about the conspiracy of Obama. Their pastors tell them, and they BELIEVE.

This group is a cult, and you are correct Facts Don't Matter. Because nothing trumps the word of God to them, and that word sits in the mouths of the "good men" who are their pastors. End of story.

I am begging everyone, please stop feeding the hate!!!!!!!!!!!!
A country divided cannot stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE THE PEOPLE need to stand up and unite together. A divided country is much easier to control, don't you see that? Both sides can preach all day, but changing peoples deep beliefs will never work, never has. Holy wars ring a bell?
Not only is there a far right, there is a far left. Both are a very small # of the population. I am very suspicious of anyone that deliberately sets forth to destroy the unity of Americans. I will no longer contribute to the hate, I will only keep asking people to stop before they divide us for good.

Oh and I guess being some left wing, tree hugging Liberal is not just as much of a cult. There are loonies on both sides. I would say there are way more crazy out of touch liberals in this country than there are crazy evangelical conservatives.

Thanks for the thread, BH!

It's unfortunate that there are those out there that can not find a middle ground between logic, reason, and faith. I grew up in a rigorously Catholic school taught by nuns and brothers.

Each and every one of my teachers included faith and religion in some way during classes, but all of them stressed the importance that being a true Christian and having a balanced mind, body, and spirit means finding a balance between faith, logic, and reason.

What we're seeing now is the twilight of the white neoconservative evangelicals that dominated American politics for so long. The GOPs refusal to modernize to the new American and its subsequent caving in to corporate conglomerates has forced the party into a box that it can not escape. It's now beholden to the quickly shrinking evangelical demographic, while progressives and the Democratic party are seeing large gains in nearly all places with nearly all demographics from the East to the West coast.

Unfortunately, as the power of the GOP continues to wane, its tactics will become more and more desperate. Expect the next few elections to be very, very ugly.

Originally posted by octotom
This means that 65%, more than half of New Jersey conservatives, don't believe that Obama is the Antichrist, right?

Yes, but that's nothing to brag about... "More than half of us are sane"...

So, what exactly is this number of "single-minded radical fundamental Christians" who claim that there is an usurper in the White House?

I don't know what the numbers are, but all it takes is one.

Or, are we just saying that anyone that protests, is a "birther", and says these off the wall things is a fundamental evangelical Christian now?

I'M not saying that, Are YOU saying that? I didn't mention protesters and I'm not talking about protesters. I'm talking about ... what is in the post.

Each side has facts.

No. This birther cult has nothing like facts! They THINK what they have are facts, but they are not. What they are basing their opinion on is the FAITH that Obama is a usurper. They have ZERO facts with which to back that up.

You have to refute what they have as fact.

Read what I wrote. These people care not about the facts. They only have faith. Facts are irrelevant to them. That's my whole point.

It's not that people of faith don't want facts. People just shouldn't expect them to easily flip one not entirely provable believe, like believing in God, for another not entirely provable believe, like believing God doesn't exist.

I'm not talking about people who believe in God. Did you read the OP?

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Isnt every politician/figurehead/spokesperson the 'antichrist' to somebody?

By somebody, yes. But over 1/3 of conservatives? Roughly 1/6 of the population???

Yeah, I'm sure people have thought of past presidents as the Antichrist, but not 1/3 of one of the two political parties! One third of Democrats didn't claim Bush was the Antichrist! This movement is so much larger than I thought it was and so much more determined!

And just to be clear, I mean no offense to people like dbates, who are clearly simply devoted to their religion. I support people's right to practice their chosen religion. This thread is about the birthers, a subculture of the right who are also evangelicals/antichrist hunters. I have been surprised recently as I research this phenomenon on how many links go to religious sites and how many people are "praying" for their truth to come out.

Fear and loathing in Washington, DC.....

The GOP::

Voted against Social Security
Voted against medicare
Voted against civil rights
Voted against equal rights and equal pay for women.
Voting against health insurance reform

Spent 100 Million investigating Clintons BJ in office
Spent 4 million investigating 9/11

Scare senior citizens, xenophobes, evangelicals and xracists into believing that if Obama succeeds, the specific fears of each of these sadly ignorant groups will come true.

Their medicare will be taken away
The illegals will benefit from democratic legislation
The Blacks are taking over
Obama is the anti-christ, or a secret muslim
Obama wasn't born in the US, he's not one of us.

These people who stand against Obama, soley for the sake of standing against him, do so for reasons not based on fact or reality, but instead they rage against things that simply do not exist.

The Evangelical right, False-news and the national GOP have created a false movement of fear and rage that is based on lies and misrepresentations.

They shout "don't be a sheep", yet they follow someone who lies to them, there are not and never were "Death Panels", Obama is a US Citizen.

People know this, yet they CHOOSE to believe the lies, because it makes it easier to hate Obama.

This isn't about hating Big spending government, this is all about Hating the Truth.

It's a sad day, a sad day when people choose to believe lies and deny the truth because it fits their personal prejudices and hatred.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by uaocteaou]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I'm not talking about people who believe in God. Did you read the OP?

Yes, I did read your post. That is why I responded to it. At the end, you made an allusion to people who believe in God:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
To continue to do what I have been doing is to do the same thing as the atheists who are always trying to use facts to convince the religious fanatics that their God (in whom they have an enormous faith) does not exist!

Did you forget what you wrote?

I'M not saying that, Are YOU saying that? I didn't mention protesters and I'm not talking about protesters. I'm talking about ... what is in the post.

In the post, you referred to those in "Anti-Obama" circles. When you say things like:

For example 35% of New Jersey conservatives say that Obama is or might be the Antichrist.

when conservative doesn't necessarily mean "fundamental Christian" and when you talk about birthers, which don't have to be Christians either, then you post a transcript from a guy calling fundamentalists "the village idiots", it looks a little like you're trying to equate any one that is in this "cult" to Christianity. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Read what I wrote. These people care not about the facts. They only have faith. Facts are irrelevant to them. That's my whole point.

Just because it's your point, doesn't mean it's right. I said that these people, if given concrete answers to their claims would back down. Calling them "the village idiots" and "buffons" simply isn't going to cut it if you're trying to get through to them.

[edit on 9/17/2009 by octotom]