Proving Gods Existence

I am about try and prove the existence of God, so fasten your seatbelts, where about to embark on a journey.

Try to follow the steps as you go and think about your answers. If your unsure of your answer, just move on to the next step, but remember there are no right or wrong answers. (but there might be )

Step 1
Look around you right now and what do you see? Just about everything around us, other than living things, has been designed, by US! Now if you accept evolution as a fact, it merely only describes the process by which life developed. The big question is who or what designed the parameters that set up the process, to begin with…was it by chance or God?


Step 2
I’m pretty sure that most people would agree, that there had to be something that existed in the beginning, either before time itself or within infinity. Do you agree?


Step3
Essentially you have two options:

Option 1: God always existed and created everything!

Option 2: All the elements in the universe always existed and due to unknown chance factors, they perhaps collided creating the big bang, which in turn, created life in all its amazing complexities!!! lol

Which option would you choose?


Step 4
Naturally, you stubbornly ask..
…Who created God?

You might just as well ask…
…Who created all the elements in the universe that always existed, on their own?


Step 5
What has a more statistical and greater chance of producing/creating everything we know in life and in the universe?

Option (a) God/Creator

Option (b) Random chance elements on there own.


Step 6
Can any of this be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it was God or chance that created or happend lol everything?

Yes

Or

No


Step 7
Which is easier to believe and more rational?

Option (a) God/Creator

Option (b) Random chance elements, moving around without a life or mind of their own.



Me personally… I’m going with God



- JC




[edit on 7-7-2009 by Joecroft]

Third option: I don't know & I don't care.

Which would put me in the crosshairs of most option 1 people.

Just look at our privates. We have a penis and a vagaina.

With something called orgasms.


evolution cannot do this good. Evolution cannot create two parts that fit perfectly together for the purpose they are intended.

and then create an orgasm. evolution is not concerned for sex fealing good.


That's because this outside force wanted us toenjoy sex in the right circumstances.


evolutionist deep down, know something had to do this.

reply to post by wookiee

Originally posted by wookiee
Third option: I don't know & I don't care.

There’s nothing wrong with saying you “don’t know” or you are unsure, which is a very humble answer but the point of my thread is to try and show that believing in a God is not such an irrational thing to believe in. As for you saying you “don’t care” I don’t think that is true, after all, you did find your way to this thread and posted a response.

Originally posted by wookiee
Which would put me in the crosshairs of most option 1 people.

You would probably be at crosshairs with most option 2 people as well. Not because you say you “don’t know” but because you say you “don’t care”.



- JC

reply to post by JesusisTruth

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Just look at our privates. We have a penis and a vagaina.

With something called orgasms.

Man…I almost fell of my seat…At first I thought you had replied to the wrong thread… lol

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
evolution cannot do this good. Evolution cannot create two parts that fit perfectly together for the purpose they are intended.

and then create an orgasm. evolution is not concerned for sex fealing good.

Seriously though – you have brought up an interesting point but it can be argued that sex feeling good, can actually enhance and increase the evolutionary process, by increasing the drive for species to want to reproduce…but that’s a whole different thread…

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
evolutionist deep down, know something had to do this.

Yes, maybe deep down some of them do. There are of course, many religious people out there, who accept evolution, but believe it was also God driven. Unfortunately most people don’t even know this is a possibility and have not even considered it. I guess this is probably because of the way evolution is presented to the general public, as if it has all the answers to the questions of life and living things, when it clearly does not.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
What has a more statistical and greater chance of producing/creating everything we know in life and in the universe?

Option (a) God/Creator

Option (b) Random chance elements on there own.

Statistics, statistics... At times, it is very important, at times, it doesn't actually tell the truth.

Can you actually claim you can always make it home alive all the time? If you rolled a dice three in a row and landed all 7's in a row, can you say, it will again land 7 in the forth roll?

Once you start dealing with statistics and probabilities, then you must also accept that everything possible. Thus, your argument is invalid.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


I could not disagree more

1. Evolusionists deep down know that a force created this...

bull honkey...you aren't a mindreader and you have know idea deep down what they know so don't try to pretend to know what anyone but yourself thinks

My counter...deep down you know God is fake...prove me wrong

2. Orgasms feel good...evolution couldn't have done this well

prove it...for once show us some actual concrete proof and not just a story that likewise cannot be proven...guess what...neither side can do it because you may say "Well you just refuse to see the proof that God exists" once again...prove it...prove to me that what you see as God isn't a delusion? You can't and neither can an evolutionist prove what he believes to be true.

3. Evolution isn't concerned about an orgasm feeling good...

sigh...prove it? I will throw out my idea here that is shared by alot of scientists. Evolution wants life to sustain...hence...make sex feel good...

Sex leads to procreation in animals if not protected. What better way to make sure we procreate then to make it feel so darn amazing.

Now...OP...I apologize but I found part of what he wrote offensive and had to discuss

I want you to bear in mind NOTHING I am about to say I can prove...merely I would like to counter and discuss

Step 1

I have looked around for years and what I see probably was evolutionary...BUT the evolution was started by a divine being. I don't believe it was what Christian's call God but then again we all have our beliefs.

Step 2

I do agree that something must have existed before

Step 3

I say this respectfully but perhaps you narrowed the options a bit too much

Option 1: God

Option 2: Evolution

Option 3: A deity outside of God

I bet there are alot more options

Step 4

Who created God...I believe your God IS real but not how you think. I think of him as another deity in the theistic realm just like Zeus or Isis or whoever...I think he has the most of the power because currently he has most of the followers. I believe there is a sentient being that exists of all beings. If you are worthy when you die then you will become part of that conscious...if not...you end

Step 5

Statistics I think are a poor example here and I believe again there are so many possibilities

God is an intangible concept (I say concept in the use of statistics so please nobody jump on me for calling God that)

He isn't tangible...nobody has shownus a physical manifestation that is God and thus he hasn't be proven yet. You can't really work statistics into an intangible

Step 6

Can any of this be proven?

God? No

Evolution? No

Isis? (who I happen to believe is real) No

Step 7

Which is easier to believe and is more rational

Well this seems like a bit of a baited question although I am sure you didn't mean it that way. What is rational to you could be very easily explained away by the rational thought of another. Let me argue on both sides to show you my point

Point 1 (I believe God did it)

It is terribly irational to think that a bunch of elements came from nothing, collided and now I am here...not rational

Point 2 (I believe evolution did it)

It is terribly irrational to believe in some divine being that people just wrote a book about but has yet to be proven in any concrete manner

The idea is...you can word either argument to make it sound more rational

However OP....nice thread here and very amiable I think...we may disagree but I sure do support your right...so long as you don't run and tell the rest they are wrong or stupid for believing otherwise

-Kyo

reply to post by ahnggk

Originally posted by ahnggk

Statistics, statistics... At times, it is very important, at times, it doesn't actually tell the truth.

Have you ever heard the phrase “statistics never lie!!”. I personally disagree with that general statement because statistics can be so misleading sometimes, especially when they leave out important pieces of information, which would shed more light on the overall picture.

You are right when you say statistics don’t actually tell us the truth but they are a very good starting point in order for us to try and find the truth. Statistics are used in so many fields today, to try and give us a solution or answer or to show us what is more likely. Statistics are only part of the truth but not the complete truth, they are like pieces of evidence that need to be backed up with other pieces of evidence.

Originally posted by ahnggk

Can you actually claim you can always make it home alive all the time? If you rolled a dice three in a row and landed all 7's in a row, can you say, it will again land 7 in the forth roll?

I guess I would probably be chucked out of the casino for cheating lol

I see your point, a dice only has only six sides, so rolling 7s, is just not a possible option. We can see the whole complete dice but we cannot see everything in the entire universe.

“God does not play dice with the universe” Albert Einstein

Originally posted by ahnggk

Once you start dealing with statistics and probabilities, then you must also accept that everything possible. Thus, your argument is invalid.

I see what you are saying, in that unless we know all the possible outcomes, it is pointless to bring statistics into the equation or argument.

Try looking at my question in step 5 this way.

Are not things around us, that we can see, more likely to be there with help from something or without help from anything, statistically speaking?



- JC

Kyo, calm down, it's my opinion.

The reason I say athiest deep down, provided they are open to his existence and haven't made their minds up already, know something must be behind it because of the bueaty of nature and complexiety.


Now, as for, an orgasm.

Evolution doesn't have a brain. It just happens by chance, which means it wouldn't be smart enoguh to construct an orgasm.

A mind has to be behind it. Any sane human being can see that.


so anyways continue the discussion.

peace.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 8-7-2009 by JesusisTruth]

Originally posted by Joecroft

Try looking at my question in step 5 this way.

Are not things around us, that we can see, more likely to be there with help from something or without help from anything, statistically speaking?

- JC

Well, talking of statistics. I went home from work once, it was night, went inside my room which was unlit, and guess what, a huge cat went jumping towards me from the darkness and it was gone in an instant. I was scared to ####. Anyway, it only happened once in my whole life!

-Do I have a pet cat? No
-Does the cat have a reason to be in my room, which by the way happened to be in 2nd floor of the house and no food inside? No
-Does it happened before? No
-Did my room shown any evidence of a cat? Not a hint, it was very dark.
-Am I expecting a cat in my room? No.
-Would you expect a stray cat in your room right now? Most likely, your answer would be no.

But lo and behold, there is a cat! Alive and literally kicking... Professionally, I would agree with statistics, and you, but morally and to keep my mind and options open, I won't.

I would never say, anything proven with statistics but not without concrete evidence with any certainty, my answer will always be probably. Never would I way the Titanic could not be sunk....

And if God, plays with dice? If such a highly intelligent entity does exist, I would say yes. I play with random numbers, random behavior, etc, as part of my scientific research, why not higher entities?

Albert Einstein only said that because he refused to accept the uncertainty presented with Quantum Mechanics. As we would later find it seems to be the principle the Universe operates on, an 'engineered random occurrences'. I would say engineered, as with proper techniques, they can be predicted and influenced accurately

[edit on 8-7-2009 by ahnggk]

reply to post by KyoZero

Originally posted by KyoZero
Now...OP...I apologize but I found part of what he wrote offensive and had to discuss.

That’s ok Kyo, I kind of eluded towards the same idea myself, in my reply to JesusisTruth.

Originally posted by KyoZero

I want you to bear in mind NOTHING I am about to say I can prove...merely I would like to counter and discuss

Step 1

I have looked around for years and what I see probably was evolutionary...BUT the evolution was started by a divine being.

That is an excellent answer, this is exactly what I believe, that evolution was started and directed by a creator/divine being.

Originally posted by KyoZero
I don't believe it was what Christian's call God but then again we all have our beliefs.

That’s great, I was kind of going with the idea that God = the creator and whatever else people ascribe to God after that or what else God means to them, would be up to the individual to decide. Simply put, I was not trying to prove religion, but to try and show that believing in a God/Creator as a starting point, is not such an irrational and crazy idea.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Step 2

I do agree that something must have existed before

Most people would agree that it is not possible to get something out of nothing, it’s just not logical.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Step 3

I say this respectfully but perhaps you narrowed the options a bit too much

Option 1: God

Option 2: Evolution

Option 3: A deity outside of God

I bet there are a lot more options

Yes there are a lot of options. I just wanted to keep it simple and not overcomplicate it.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Step 4

Who created God...I believe your God IS real but not how you think. I think of him as another deity in the theistic realm just like Zeus or Isis or whoever...I think he has the most of the power because currently he has most of the followers. I believe there is a sentient being that exists of all beings. If you are worthy when you die then you will become part of that conscious...if not...you end

The point of my step 4 question is that people who do not believe in a God, often use the defense: “Who created God?” when they might just as well ask, who created all the elements in the universe, that always existed or who or what started/created the “Big Bang”

I am amazed that you believe or know, how I see God I just wanted people to focus on the question of could there be a God and not get wrapped up in any other ideas or preconceptions that go along with that belief i.e. religions.

“A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step” Confucius

People are often put of by God because of religion, but if they would just first focus on a belief in God/Creator, first and only then try to discover the rest about God for themselves, then it might make things a lot easier.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Step 5

Statistics I think are a poor example here and I believe again there are so many possibilities

God is an intangible concept (I say concept in the use of statistics so please nobody jump on me for calling God that)

Yes you are right God is in many ways unknown, but I am not trying to define God in any other way except to say that he is the Creator of universe and everything in it.

Originally posted by KyoZero
He isn't tangible...nobody has shownus a physical manifestation that is God and thus he hasn't be proven yet. You can't really work statistics into an intangible

Try looking at my question in step 5 this way.

Are not things around us, that we can see, more likely to be there with help from something or without help from anything, statistically speaking?

If those statistics apply to things that we can see, then why can’t they apply to the rest of the universe that we can’t see? why should it be any different? Obviously it can’t be proven either way, but it does seem like a good starting point.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Step 6

Can any of this be proven?

God? No

Evolution? No

Isis? (who I happen to believe is real) No

Yes most people would agree that these can not be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I have to ask why do you believe in Isis?

Originally posted by KyoZero
Step 7

Which is easier to believe and is more rational
Well this seems like a bit of a baited question although I am sure you didn't mean it that way. What is rational to you could be very easily explained away by the rational thought of another. Let me argue on both sides to show you my point.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Point 1 (I believe God did it)

It is terribly irational to think that a bunch of elements came from nothing, collided and now I am here...not rational

Nice work lol

Originally posted by KyoZero
Point 2 (I believe evolution did it)

It is terribly irrational to believe in some divine being that people just wrote a book about but has yet to be proven in any concrete manner

lol

Originally posted by KyoZero
The idea is...you can word either argument to make it sound more rational

Well done, you have caught me out I did paint one of the options in a slightly negative light lol, due to my own bias, that I believe there is a God.

But consider this: We can make both options rational or irrational but we still have to try and make a choice, unless we choose to say we “don’t know.”

Originally posted by KyoZero
However OP....nice thread here and very amiable I think...we may disagree but I sure do support your right...so long as you don't run and tell the rest they are wrong or stupid for believing otherwise

I would never tell anyone they were wrong or stupid because they didn’t believe something. I just want people to question and think for themselves about a possible belief in A GOD…not to try and convert anyone to any particular religion.

Thank you for the compliment and for your excellent reply.


-JC

Originally posted by Joecroft

I would never tell anyone they were wrong or stupid because they didn’t believe something. I just want people to question and think for themselves about a possible belief in A GOD…not to try and convert anyone to any particular religion.

Thank you for the compliment and for your excellent reply.


-JC

I actually find that nothing has preceded everything, including energy more unlikely than something had started all this.

Someone will argue the Big Bang, a primordial particle that blew up and created our reality.

The next question that nobody seems to bother realizing - what spawned this Big Bang in the first place? What created this primordial particle??

Even the concept of Big Bang isn't complete - it has no beginning. So we explode atomic bombs, creating fission and fusion products that can be likened to stars and galaxies..... They didn't explode from nothing... The bomb was assembled by top tier of scientists working double shifts I would imagine in the Manhattan project...

reply to post by ahnggk

Originally posted by ahnggk
And if God, plays with dice? If such a highly intelligent entity does exist, I would say yes. I play with random numbers, random behavior, etc, as part of my scientific research, why not higher entities?

Albert Einstein only said that because he refused to accept the uncertainty presented with Quantum Mechanics. As we would later find it seems to be the principle the Universe operates on, an 'engineered random occurrences'. I would say engineered, as with proper techniques, they can be predicted and influenced accurately

Yes I would go along with that idea of 'engineered random occurrences'. I know that in computer game programming for example, that there are mathematical formulas which can produce random numbers, you will probably no more than me about that, if it is part of the work that you do.

A formula to produce random numbers has been designed, so therefore, randomness that we see in the universe, could also be by design. Maybe our (man kinds) definition of what randomness actually is, needs to be redefined, perhaps randomness and chance don’t exist in the way we think they do, which wouldn’t leave us with many other options, other than God.

Originally posted by ahnggk
I actually find that nothing has preceded everything, including energy more unlikely than something had started all this.

Someone will argue the Big Bang, a primordial particle that blew up and created our reality.

The next question that nobody seems to bother realizing - what spawned this Big Bang in the first place? What created this primordial particle??

Even the concept of Big Bang isn't complete - it has no beginning. So we explode atomic bombs, creating fission and fusion products that can be likened to stars and galaxies..... They didn't explode from nothing... The bomb was assembled by top tier of scientists working double shifts I would imagine in the Manhattan project...

It cracks me up when scientist use those terms like, primordial particle and the hilarious, yet unforgettable, primordial soup lol I mean, come on, give me something to work with. God creating and using the “big bang” I can buy, but the big bang happening on its own…no way.

Even if the big bang took place on it’s own, which I don’t believe, it seems to me, that the design of all the elements in the known universe and how they interact with each other, had already been designed before the “big bang” even took place! What I mean by that is, you can’t have fire and explosions, without first having the design of those particles and atoms, to act in a certain way, that would allow for these things (explosions) to take place, to begin with. Something got there first, before the “Big Bang”

Scientist seem to be suggesting that particles just decided to become a particular element, like fire, water, hydrogen etc etc…and they just obviously became themselves!!! Through pure chance, on their own, and without any identifiable cause, allowing them to do so…

...I just don’t buy it.


- JC

I believe it is impossible to have a Earth just by change, so i go with a creator/god. We used the resources allready provided to build upon. We have everything we need allready here on this tiny blue planet. How can this be luck?

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by wookiee

 

As for you saying you “don’t care” I don’t think that is true, after all, you did find your way to this thread and posted a response.

I do care what others make believe, crosshairs and all that.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Evolution doesn't have a brain. It just happens by chance, which means it wouldn't be smart enoguh to construct an orgasm.

A mind has to be behind it. Any sane human being can see that.


[edit on 8-7-2009 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 8-7-2009 by JesusisTruth]

See what you are doing here is basically pre-insulting anyone who disagrees. Your rule here says...I agree...or I am insane

You tell me to calm down but the stuff people spew sounds so rude and so full of hatred...maybe the best move is to stop with these horrible attempts to prove God real or fake...it isn't going to happen...you cannot prove him concretely to us and others cannot prove concretely he isn't real...it just isn't possible. You can sit and say well look at the orgasm..ok yes it is great...I love them...but that doesn't mean a divine being made it happen. Evolution is about survival of the species as said before...well...what better way to ensure it than to adapt and make sex feel amazing

whatever...life moves on...I guess I am insane

-Kyo