Ages of Old Testament Characters - where is the proof?

According to science, man has lived on Earth for approximately 200,000 years.

According to the Bible, man has lived on Earth for approximately 6000 years.

In the Old Testament there are characters who supposedly lived for centuries. Now we know people don't actually live that long so I wanted to find out a bit more about this. I did a brief bit of digging for explanations, and (so far) I've come across three viewpoints:

1) That "years" actually meant "months"

2) Environmental changes brought on by "the flood" led to a change in our body chemistry

3) That neanderthals were actually centuries old humans

The first link does a decent enough job of discounting that theory so I won't bother. The second is an interesting idea, but you have to believe in a theoretical atmospheric 'vapour layer' for it to work. The third is quite ludicrous, but helps me get to the question I have to ask...

Archaeologists can dig up human remains from long before the supposed biblical age of man and can then tell us how roughly old the person was when they died (based on teeth and bone length etc)...

Why has no-one ever found the skeleton of a human that died at the age of 300 or more?

Where are the remains of these people? 6000 years isn't that long a time and we know where these people apparently hung about. Did no-one ever get buried in those days?

Did I miss something here?


(p.s - apologies if this has been asked before, I didn't find anything here when I searched)

(p.p.s - Mods, I'm not sure if this thread is in the right place, so please move if necessary)



[edit on 23/6/09 by sotp]

I seem to remember that archaeologists have dug up many bones from far further back than 300 years. Recorded history in some form seems to have gone back approximately 5000 years to the Sumerians.

I consider something from the bible that exclaims that the "wages of sin is death". I am willing to also consider that if the wages of sin are death then as we "sin" and are able to harm others, or maybe more appropriately, ourselves we more readily welcome the natural consequence of a shorter time to experience this wonderful world and everything that it offers.

Maybe a little out there but my thoughts, indeed.

Thanks for the thread

Hey sotp! Hope all is well...

Been doing a lil archeological 'diggin' for you...

The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.

Link: www.christiananswers.net...

What about events written in the Bible....CONFIRMED by outside sources?

The most documented Biblical event is the world-wide flood described in Genesis 6-9. A number of Babylonian documents have been discovered which describe the same flood.


Ancient tablet listing the Sumerian kings
[More information]The Sumerian King List (pictured here), for example, lists kings who reigned for long periods of time. Then a great flood came. Following the flood, Sumerian kings ruled for much shorter periods of time. This is the same pattern found in the Bible. Men had long life spans before the flood and shorter life spans after the flood. The 11th tablet of the Gilgamesh Epic speaks of an ark, animals taken on the ark, birds sent out during the course of the flood, the ark landing on a mountain, and a sacrifice offered after the ark landed.

The Story of Adapa tells of a test for immortality involving food, similar to the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Sumerian tablets record the confusion of language as we have in the Biblical account of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9). There was a golden age when all mankind spoke the same language. Speech was then confused by the god Enki, lord of wisdom. The Babylonians had a similar account in which the gods destroyed a temple tower and “scattered them abroad and made strange their speech.”

More examples of extra-Biblical confirmation of Biblical events
Campaign into Israel by Pharaoh Shishak (1 Kings 14:25-26), recorded on the walls of the Temple of Amun in Thebes, Egypt.
Revolt of Moab against Israel (2 Kings 1:1; 3:4-27), recorded on the Mesha Inscription.
Fall of Samaria (2 Kings 17:3-6, 24; 18:9-11) to Sargon II, king of Assyria, as recorded on his palace walls.
Defeat of Ashdod by Sargon II (Isaiah 20:1), as recorded on his palace walls.
Campaign of the Assyrian king Sennacherib against Judah (2 Kings 18:13-16), as recorded on the Taylor Prism.
Siege of Lachish by Sennacherib (2 Kings 18:14, 17), as recorded on the Lachish reliefs.
Assassination of Sennacherib by his own sons (2 Kings 19:37), as recorded in the annals of his son Esarhaddon.
Fall of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah (2:13-15), recorded on the Tablet of Nabopolasar.
Fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:10-14), as recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles.
Captivity of Jehoiachin, king of Judah, in Babylon (2 Kings 24:15-16), as recorded on the Babylonian Ration Records.
Fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians (Daniel 5:30-31), as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder.
Freeing of captives in Babylon by Cyrus the Great (Ezra 1:1-4; 6:3-4), as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder.
The existence of Jesus Christ as recorded by Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, the Talmud, and Lucian.
Forcing Jews to leave Rome during the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54) (Acts 18:2), as recorded by Suetonius.

Quite a bunch of evidence....mre here... www.christiananswers.net...

I think we've come to a point where we can scientifically disprove nearly everything the bible states.

The writers were great philosophers and I'm sure good people, but all they did was write a book that "explained" their perception of the universe.

Remember, just because we disprove the bible doesn't exactly mean we disprove God, gods, or goddesses, or prophets or any of that jazz. There's room for spirituality in science.

And for the religious zealots, accept that there is room for science in spirituality. Both are faith based systems

reply to post by sotp



Burial evidence of many biblical characters here: www.christiananswers.net...

A great politician and administrator, Augustus ruled the Roman empire from 27 B.C.-A.D. 14. It was Augustus who issued the census decree that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born (Luke 2:1-7). Augustus erected for himself a grand mausoleum in Rome, on the east bank of the Tiber River, one quarter mile northwest of the Roman Forum. The remains exist today in the middle of the Piazza Augusto Imperatore.

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
I think we've come to a point where we can scientifically disprove nearly everything the bible states.

I

Am

listening...????

Examples??

OT

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
I think we've come to a point where we can scientifically disprove nearly everything the bible states.

I think it's the other way around there midnight...OK, now how many years ago did the prophet Isaiah live?

What about when the Psalms were written?

Was it after ‘Science’ discovered…that the earth was round? I don’t think so..?

Was it after ‘Science’ discovered…that the universe is expanding?

I don’t know…maybe…possibly…Isaiah could have had access to MyFly’s Dilourion (sp?) and jumped ahead in time…probably saw John Titor, had lunch, Italian, I think…and then secretly peeked at the Journal of Modern Science…took some notes…went back to Biblical times, wrote it down and was promoted to Old Testament Author?????

Skeptic, certainly this is mathematically possible….with enough TIME and CHANCE, right?

Well, let’s see what he wrote, ok?

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. - Isaiah 40:22

He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind. - Psalms 104:2-3

This is what God the Lord says — he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it. - Isaiah 42:5

The Lord speaking:
"It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." - Isaiah 45:12

WoW! He knew the earth was round and the universe is expanding! Gee wise!

Certainly JOB had access to a telescope…He must have…right….because he claimed…that the Earth is suspended in emptiness, or space, which Job describes as "nothing." Chapter 26:7 says, "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." NEXT>>>

What about THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE? OT, what does that mean? I don’t know…I’m thirsty, got to get a drink of water…I’ll be right back??? Water, huh? That’s it! en.wikipedia.org...

It’s all in the GOOD BOOK, folks!!! Who would a thunk it? Even the sphericity stuff too! Whew, this is a neat book!

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." - Job 36:27-28 "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." - Job 26:8

The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. - Ecclesiastes 1:6-7

“Hey did you know Moses went to Oxford? Really, must have…he knew that the future fossil record prove plants were around before animals…”

“Really! That’s amazing OT!”

“ Ah, not me…I read it somewhere…"Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. - Genesis 1:11

And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." - Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. - Genesis 1:24 NEXT>>>>>

“OT, I thought the Bible was disproved by science?” “Yeah, I’ve heard that myth a few times, did you know the Bible agrees with science…it too says…that the first life appeared in the water…just like science………………….And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures..." - Genesis 1:20

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
I think we've come to a point where we can scientifically disprove nearly everything the bible states.

Here’s some more (biblical) scientific factoids to ponder…

On the clearest night possible…with the naked eye…go out…better yet go atop the highest mountain near you…on the clearest night…and count…count the stars…I bet you can count a lot…but not an infinite amount…you will come up with a number, for sure…

Yet…the Bible spoke a scientific fact…may many years before we had telescopes…that the number of stars is endless…or at least a whole bunch more than we can count readily…correct? Another one of those old ‘scientists’ named Jeremiah said…"I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.'"

Also Charlton Heston, I mean MOSES said of the LORD to Abraham…"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,"

My man, Jacob "But you have said, 'I will surely make you prosper and will make your descendants like the sand of the sea, which cannot be counted.'" in Genesis 32… also in Gen 15…”He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Data-minded folks…OT loves you…is some of this Truth…sinking in?

Also what about the old dudes speaking of "valleys" existing beneath the sea? Thousands and thousands of years ago?? How could they have known of this…satellites maybe? Probably not too probable, huh?
See…”The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils. - 2 Samuel 22:16 Oh, I see they were seismic experts?

reply to post by sotp



What about likenesses found in the bible?

Many of the people mentioned in the Bible are confirmed in sources outside the Bible. In the case of royalty, many times a likeness of the individual has been recovered. Over 50 persons named in the Old Testament are known outside the Bible, and we have likenesses of 12 of them. Some 27 people named in the New Testament are known from other records, with six likenesses surviving (four of them Roman emperors).

Based on current knowledge of Biblical and Egyptian chronology, the best candidate for the pharaoh of the Exodus is Tuthmosis III, who ruled 1504-1450 B.C. We have many records from his reign, as well as this statuary (see photo) of the pharaoh himself.

Likenesses have also been found of these Biblical figures:
Shishak, the Egyptian king who plundered the Temple during the reign of Rehoboam (1 Kings 14:25-26).
Jehu, king of Israel, who took power in a bloody coup; the only surviving likeness of a king of Israel or Judah (2 Kings 9:1-10:36).
Hazael, king of Aram, enemy of Israel (1 Kings 19:15, 17; 2 Kings 8:7-15, 28-29; 9:14-15; 10:32-33; 12:17-18; 13:3, 22, 24,25; Amos 1:4).
Tiglath-Pileser III, king of Assyria, who invaded Israel (2 Kings 18:19, 29; 16:7, 10; 1 Chronicles 5:6, 26; 2 Chronicles 28:20).
Sargon II, king of Assyria, who defeated Ashdod and completed the siege of Samaria and took Israelites into captivity (Isaiah 20:1).
Sennacherib, king of Assyria, who attacked Judah but was unable to capture Jerusalem (2 Kings 18:13-19:37).
Tirhakah, king of Egypt, who opposed Sennacherib (2 Kings 19:9).
Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, who succeeded his father Sennacherib (2 Kings 19:37).
Merodach-baladan, king of Babylon, whose messengers Hezekiah showed the royal treasury, much to the indignation of Isaiah (2 Kings 20:12-19).
Xerxes I, king of Persia, who made Esther his queen (Esther; Ezra 4:6).
Darius I, king of Persia, who allowed the returning exiles to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezra 4:24-6:15; Haggai 1:1, 15). Also see: Have archaeologists found the tomb of Darius? [answer]
Augustus, Roman emperor, 27 B.C.-A.D. 14, when Jesus was born (Luke 2:1).
Tiberius, Roman emperor, A.D. 14-37, during Jesus' adulthood and crucifixion (Matthew 22:17, 21; Mark 12:14-17; Luke 3:1; 20:22-25; 23:2; John 19:12,15).
Claudius, Roman emperor, A.D. 41-54, who ordered the Jews to leave Rome (Acts 11:28; 17:7; 18:2).
Herod Agrippa I, ruler of Judea, A.D. 37-44, who persecuted the early church (Acts 12:1-23; 23:35).
Aretas IV, king of the Nabateans, 9 B.C.-A.D. 40, whose governor in Damascus attempted to arrest Paul (2 Corinthians 11:32).
Nero (referred to as Caesar in the New Testament), Roman emperor, A.D. 54-68, who Paul appealed to (Acts 25:11,12,21; 26:32; 28:19; Philippians 4:22).

more : www.christiananswers.net...

reply to post by Fett Pinkus



Well, it has sure been tested far more than any other book...

The New Testament Versus Other Ancient Books
By comparing the manuscript support for the Bible with manuscript support for other ancient documents and books, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that no other ancient piece of literature can stand up to the Bible. Manuscript support for the Bible is unparalleled!

There are more [New Testament] manuscripts copied with greater accuracy and earlier dating than for any secular classic from antiquity.

Rene Pache adds, "The historical books of antiquity have a documentation infinitely less solid."

Dr. Benjamin Warfield concludes, "If we compare the present state of the text of the New Testament with that of no matter what other ancient work, we must...declare it marvelously exact."
Norman Geisler makes several key observations for our consideration:

No other book is even a close second to the Bible on either the number or early dating of the copies. The average secular work from antiquity survives on only a handful of manuscripts; the New Testament boasts thousands.

The average gap between the original composition and the earliest copy is over 1,000 years for other books.

The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion.

The degree of accuracy of the copies is greater for the New Testament than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible.
From this documentary evidence, then, it is clear that the New Testament writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. "The records for the New Testament are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text."

more: home.earthlink.net...

reply to post by Fett Pinkus


What about the Old Testament?

What makes it true?

Manuscript Evidence for the Old Testament
The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accuracy of the transmission of the Bible.

In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900).

The significant thing is that when one compares the two sets of manuscripts, it is clear that they are essentially the same, with very few changes.

The fact that manuscripts separated by a thousand years are essentially the same indicates the incredible accuracy of the Old Testament's manuscript transmission.
A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was discovered at Qumran.

Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text.

The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling."
From manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Christians have undeniable evidence that today's Old Testament Scripture, for all practical purposes, is exactly the same as it was when originally inspired by God and recorded in the Bible.

Combine this with the massive amount of manuscript evidence we have for the New Testament, and it is clear that the Christian Bible is a trustworthy and reliable book.

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.

These copyists knew they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.

The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy.

more: home.earthlink.net...

reply to post by sotp


I've got lots of things posted by Oldthinker to check out. Kudos to OT. Meahwhile. Let's look at something I have thought about for a long time. I hope I can clearly explain my thoughts here.

So, an archaeologist finds a skeleton. Carbon dating shows it to be, say 6,000 years old and proclaims the the person who resided on this skeleton died at the age of 45. This was decided based on bone lengths, teeth lengths, and as far as I understand, this determination is based on current human bone and teeth lengths as pertains to age. Now, just suppose a person many years ago lived to be 900 years old. Oh, how miserable a life it could have been to have lost all one's teeth by, say, the age of 90. So I suggest that teeth and bones might very well grow slower in an era when people live longer. Just a thought. My 2 cents. Now, back to all these examples from the Old Testament. Peace.

reply to post by OldThinker


Ok, you are clearly one of those folks who love to put forth a 20 paragraph post as if the more you wrote made what you said more true.

I'm not wasting my time going through line by line and pointing out how you are wrong, you'd only argue more vehemently, that's what Zealots do.

However, I would submit that you have done nothing more than prove my point that the writers of the bible were explaining their world perception by what they "knew". They also made analogies that focused on dramatic flair. When comparing good wishings on on a persons familial lineage, with the number of stars in the sky, that doesn't mean they had a fundamental knowledge of the universe. It literally means that they foresaw a man having so many descendants that they couldn't count them. Just like it was nearly impossible to count the number of stars in the sky because they are so numerous.

Also, as for the valleys of the seas, first and foremost, ever heard of drought? ponds, rivers, and lakes dry up or recede all the time, and you can see they have clear features like that of the land around you. From there, it's no stretch of the imagination that the seas (which in this example, have NOT receded) would have the same features as well. I'm quite certain that the people who lived during this time could have put 2 and 2 together and come up with four. I never said they were stupid, I said they didn't have all the facts.

Of course, neither do we currently. It's all progression, and learning.

Originally posted by midnightbrigade

Also, as for the valleys of the seas, first and foremost, ever heard of drought?

in

an

ocean????

no!!!!

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
Of course, neither do we currently. It's all progression, and learning.

Good point!!!

I second that....

OT

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
Also, as for the valleys of the seas, first and foremost, ever heard of drought? ponds, rivers, and lakes dry up or recede all the time, and you can see they have clear features like that of the land around you. From there, it's no stretch of the imagination that the seas (which in this example, have NOT receded) would have the same features as well. I'm quite certain that the people who lived during this time could have put 2 and 2 together and come up with four.

actually they thought it was FLAT midnight...

About two thirds of the Earth's surface lies beneath the oceans. Before the 19th century, the depths of the open ocean were largely a matter of speculation, and most people thought that the ocean floor was relatively flat and featureless. However, as early as the 16th century, a few intrepid navigators, by taking soundings with hand lines, found that the open ocean can differ considerably in depth, showing that the ocean floor was not as flat as generally believed. Oceanic exploration during the next centuries dramatically improved our knowledge of the ocean floor. We now know that most of the geologic processes occurring on land are linked, directly or indirectly, to the dynamics of the ocean floor.

more: pubs.usgs.gov...

edit for more:

In the brief history of ocean exploration some of the most fascinating discoveries about the geology of the sea floor have changed the way humans had viewed the sea for hundreds of years. No longer is the sea considered to be a bottomless, black abyss, the sea floor a vast expanse of cold, flat, lifeless watery desert. In the last 30 years, modern technologies have been used to map the topography of the sea floor, revealing a profile of the sea floor that is anything but flat and lifeless. The sea bed has been found to be riddled with massive geologic formations that mimic those we have on land, but on a much, much grander scale. Some of the most notable discoveries have been deep ocean canyons, which rival the Grand Canyon, seemingly endless underwater mountain chains that run thousands of miles; deep trenches, sea mounts, and coral reefs and atolls formed not by the geologic processes of earth, but by the diligence of tiny organisms over thousands of years.

link: www.extremescience.com...

note not from Jerry falwell's website...


[edit on 24-6-2009 by OldThinker]

The extravagant ages attributed to Old Testament patriarchs are the result of a transcription error.

Remember that in Mesopotamia, which is where the Hebrews first originated, two kinds of arithmetic were used: base 10 arithmetic, the type we use today, and base 60. When scribes familiar with one system transcribed numerals without converting from one base to another, those errors crept in. We see the same errors in Sumerian king lists and other chronologies from the same period.

It works like this: say a certain King Zorgon rules for twenty-one years. A royal scribe, using base 10 arithmetic, records the length of his rule on a clay tablet, thus: 21 years.

A few generations later, the tablet is copied by another scribe. He uses the same numerals. But in his time, people are using base 60 arithmetic, in which '21' stands not for twenty-one but for 'one hundred and twenty-one'.

So King Zorgon is recorded as having reigned for 121 years. And when base 10 arithmetic once again comes into use, that's what the record of his years on the throne will say - a hundred and twenty-one years.

The same thing happened with the ages of the Biblical patriarchs.