Operation Bird Droppings The MJ-12 Saga Continues:

Good Day Forumerions,

Ufologist Robert Hastings takes the gloves off in his critique of Robert Collins and Richard Doty--no sugar-coating here. As is often the case with Robert, he doesn't mince words, and he backs up his views with facts.

Jeez! It’s not like I don’t have other things to do. With the publication of my book UFOs and Nukes: Extraordinary Encounters at Nuclear Weapons Sites, and following my July 18, 2008 appearance on Larry King Live, I have received a number of intriguing and seemingly confirmatory leads from former or retired military personnel regarding the reality of UFO activity at nuclear weapons sites over the last six decades.

While I would much prefer following up on those apparently legitimate leads, I guess I am going to have to roll up my shirt sleeves and attempt to educate a few well-intentioned but way-too-gullible folks regarding the supposed validity of the MJ-12 “documents” and related disinformation which is still being spread around by Richard Doty and Robert Collins, sometimes in emails or online posts, but most egregiously in their co-authored book Exempt From Disclosure. The first version was published in 2005 and the second in 2008. The Introduction, in each edition, should have opened with these words: “First, before we begin, bend over!”

Ah well, I suppose it’s time for me to counter-attack, before this crap-fest gains even more ground on the Internet and at UFO conventions. (Yes, I do understand that some folks in ufology and among the general public will not benefit from my informed input, preferring instead their own biases and strained theories about MJ-12. That’s not my problem.)

For those interested in MJ-12, or the work of Robert Hasting and or the claims made by Collins and Doty, then I believe you'd find this an interesting article and topic of conversation here at ATS, and I look forward to cogent, pithy comments.

For those who don't share these interests, I would recommend skipping this thread for one more to your liking.

The rest of the story . .

reply to post by Frank Warren


That is a long article! I do agree the MJ-12 documents have too many errors for such an important document. I also admire Stanton Friedman, but think he is wrong in this case. However:

1. The research Mr Friedman has done to find evidence has been meticulous. He has found many documents that have helped along UFO researchers that would otherwise have remained in obscurity. He also found out Donald Menzel was also secretly working for intelligence agencies in secret.

2. Journalist Howard Blum in his book "Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials" revealed that the FBI could not prove the MJ-12 Documents to be fake.

Whoever made those documents, knows there information. The question should not be if they are real, but who made them and why.

Boy, that Robert Hastings is just a-comi'n out swingi'n huh. I listened to him on David Biedney's 'The Paracast' internet radio show. Woe to all you whistleblowers who don't have very good documentation.
But I digress. Don't know why exactly, I have this, well, tone; But anyhoo, I have been following ufology for three decades, and have known and seen the pros and cons to the MJ12 documents. I REFUSE to declare those things hoaxes. Did you all know, that the last surviving member of MJ12, Jerome Hunsaker, passed away in Sept. of 1984, then, less than three months later, the MJ12 microfilm role is anonymously given to media guy Jaime Shandera.
Keeping that in mind, I now turn to The History channel. I was watching one of those 'The Ufo Files' (can't recall which one) and Richard Dolan was commenting about the mystery of the MJ12 controversy. He said some things that really made a LOT of sense to me. I will NOT be quoting him, as I have no transcript or exact memory. So here is (definitely) my paraphrasing and translating. The jist was, like, that someone went to a LOT of trouble to make those letters. Not only that, but the level of sophistication and attention to insider minnutea, is Above And Beyond, to say the least. And then, to -know- about Jerome Hunsaker, and -further-, wait and follow as to if he is dying, and when he dies, like some kind of obsessed Hollywood stalker, is just Over The Top. So that, --profound-- CARE went into an op against 'ufoology', of, who-the-**** cares. Do the professors at major Universities, or Astronomers, or the Big 3 Networks care? Not mucho, far as I can tell.
By the way, WHERE and WHAT evidence is there, that Richard Doty has anything to do with MJ12? Lets pretend he did not harrass Bennewitz, and take our emotion out of the picture. First. And someone explain to me what ( gasp ) ---Horrendously Destructive Harm to the peoples and critters of the Earth, his and Collins book -- is doing. I'd really like to know. No, I really would. Truly.
I myself have posted before, about the evidence that the CIA has -admitted- to helping further the ufos-are-alien-spaceships, to protect black aeronautical programs. Could the MJ12 papers be part of that? If they are not authentic? Still, that is a LOT of --brilliant-- --sophisticated-- WORK to go through. --- For the ufo community --- MUCH LESS for the desert southwest Little Rascals, Moore, Doty, Howe, Lear, etc.
But what do I know, I'm no ufologist.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by simonecharisse]

If you can make it past the invective ramblings there are some very good points in that article. I have always sat on the fence with regard to the MJ12 documents; I never rely on them when trying to educate people on UFO's and never use the name. There are just so many other proven genuine documents that can be used instead.

I also found the discussion about the SOM 1 -01 very interesting too. This has come up a few times and I am far from sold on it. The content variations raised at the end are very enlightening to examine how unprofessionally the procedures have been done.

All in all it is well worth reading to at least understand the other side of the fence even if you still believe in the MJ12 documents and SOM 1 -01 manual.

Back in the early '90's, I recieved FBI files about me, via FOIA, from DOJ. And there are mistakes in them. In this one page, they totally misspell the military base I was at. They misspell my middle name. I would not expect to see perfection, not even alot of it, --even-- for Extremely Sensitive stuff, most especially years ago, with old fashioned typewriter equipment. This doesn't necessarily make a slick case -- for -- MJ12; 'Im just sayin', is all.

This is a great article by Robert Hastings, in it he does a great job of reviewing some history and raises very pertinent and important questions.

Unfortunately, some of those OSI-targets themselves naively disseminated that disinformation to an international audience—and, in doing so, polluted the collective understanding of what really has gone on in secrecy—with a mixture of lies, half-truths and paranoid fantasies.

I couldn't help but think of Dulce while reading this. UFO Hunters just had a couple of weeks ago a show devoted to the fairy tales of Dulce.


I find myself more and more in agreement with Don Ecker when he says that to understand the (mess of the) field of Ufology today we have to understand what happened in the 1980s, who were the players and what came out of Kirtland AFB.

Robert Hastings' article does a great job covering many of these important things I just mentioned. Everyone should give it a read, it's definitely worth it.

Afternoon KF,

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

That is a long article! I do agree the MJ-12 documents have too many errors for such an important document. I also admire Stanton Friedman, but think he is wrong in this case. However:

1. The research Mr Friedman has done to find evidence has been meticulous. He has found many documents that have helped along UFO researchers that would otherwise have remained in obscurity. He also found out Donald Menzel was also secretly working for intelligence agencies in secret.

Contrary to popular belief, Stan is a major critic to many "alleged" MJ-12 docs; however, he doesn't throw the bay out with the bath water.

2. Journalist Howard Blum in his book "Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials" revealed that the FBI could not prove the MJ-12 Documents to be fake.

Any docs "alone" on their own merits fall to the expertise of questioned documents examiners and forensic science; the evidence has to be evaluated in it preponderance--it's not black or white.

Whoever made those documents, knows there information. The question should not be if they are real, but who made them and why.

In this instance, Robert offers (at least in part) answers to the "why" of the matter.

Cheers,
Frank

Afternoon Shere,

Originally posted by Shere Khaan
If you can make it past the invective ramblings there are some very good points in that article.

It's certainly obvious that Robert is fervent in his work, and I agree, he does make valid points in the piece.

I have always sat on the fence with regard to the MJ12 documents; I never rely on them when trying to educate people on UFO's and never use the name. There are just so many other proven genuine documents that can be used instead.

Prudent measures, most certainly.

I also found the discussion about the SOM 1 -01 very interesting too. This has come up a few times and I am far from sold on it. The content variations raised at the end are very enlightening to examine how unprofessionally the procedures have been done.

All in all it is well worth reading to at least understand the other side of the fence even if you still believe in the MJ12 documents and SOM 1 -01 manual.

Methinks that this is the linchpin with the MJ-12 issue altogether; that is if one supports ETH, then it's not only plausible that such an organization exists, it's more then likely as would corresponding documents; on the same token, this is why for those very same reasons, "false documents" can be injected into the dilemma . . . which some might describe as the best example of "counterintelligence."

Cheers,
Frank

To use a much over used cliche the best place to hide something is in plain sight. Create a fake UFO recovery document to hide the original.

I am still interested in both of these simply because of the effort to create them. However, a lot of trouble was gone through to create the infamous Alien autopsy too. The preponderance of evidence in my mind sides with inconclusive.

reply to post by Shere Khaan


I think that is exactly what was done. "Leak" the fake document, so that if someone does leak a copy of a factual document, it would not even be scrutinized. Skeptics would immediately call it a fake.

reply to post by Frank Warren


I agree that Mr Friedman makes very good arguments, as I have read his books on the subject. He also has found many documents that have the same type of errors in the archives. Again, I think most of the documents are fake, but there is a possibility some real ones were leaked with them.

Howard Blum's book "Out There" was an interesting read. There are no real answers in it, but a lot of interesting information. It is also good to read a serious take on the subject by a well respected journalist. MJ-12 and other subjects come up in the book, and all are treated with respect, along with the people he interviews.

Mornin' Shere,

Originally posted by Shere Khaan
To use a much over used cliche the best place to hide something is in plain sight. Create a fake UFO recovery document to hide the original.

Amen!

I am still interested in both of these simply because of the effort to create them. However, a lot of trouble was gone through to create the infamous Alien autopsy too. The preponderance of evidence in my mind sides with inconclusive.

Yes; however, one clear motive for Santilli was $$$.

Cheers,
Frank

Mornin' KF,

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

I agree that Mr Friedman makes very good arguments, as I have read his books on the subject. He also has found many documents that have the same type of errors in the archives. Again, I think most of the documents are fake, but there is a possibility some real ones were leaked with them.

Howard Blum's book "Out There" was an interesting read. There are no real answers in it, but a lot of interesting information. It is also good to read a serious take on the subject by a well respected journalist. MJ-12 and other subjects come up in the book, and all are treated with respect, along with the people he interviews.

Blum's narrative is indeed a breath of fresh air, and documents, MJ-12 or otherwise, as with any alleged evidence must vetted and analyzed in this instance via Questioned Document Examiners and forensic sciences.

Cheers,
Frank

Good Day Forumerions,

The UFO Chronicles just published a very interesting UPDATE by Robert Hastings; it details the correspondence with "former" (and long time) proponent of the MJ-12 documents, Tim Cooper-WOW!

In part it reads:

Read your posting and as one who was foolishly taken in by the MJ-12 fantasy (which is what it is) I heartedly agree with your assessment. . . . The MJ-12 documents, and I mean ALL of them (including SOM 1-01), are a hoax and those who promote them as reality know this[,] or should know this. . . .

The rest of the story . . .

Cheers,
Frank

There's an article on page 46 in the recent Ufologist Magazine titled MJ-12, Dulce, Area 51 and the real UFO cover up. Written by Malcolm Nicholson. I don't know him, but I think that he's Aussie. In the article he references when Friedman visited Aussie in 1998 with his blacked out NSA documents.

Nicholson's purpose for this article is that it follows on from an earlier article of his about Roswell. He believes that it was a Mogul Balloon train and he believes that the Air Force made up some UFO spin to cover it.

He writes how Doty and 'Falcon' told Moore that they wanted Moore to spy on other UFO groups, to give them some info. Doty and 'Falcon' were supposedly deep cover intelligence agents who were opposed to the government UFO secrecy.

In a weird kind of feedback loop, Nicholson claims that Moore's and Friedman's research was fed back to them via the MJ-12 documents, as Moore was passing the research on to Doty and 'Falcon'.

Essentially, Nicholson thinks that the whole lot is all a hoax, created by the OSI. They needed the UFO spin to cover for the U2 spy plane and other top secret aircraft being tested.

Similarly, he describes how he thinks the USAF sucked in Bennewitz about the Dulce story, planting fake air vents and storage shacks in the area for Bennewitz to view.

I won't offer my opinion on the whole lot, as I know that the truth is OFTEN stranger than fiction.

Greetings Forumerions,

Stan in from the road has offered his rejoinder to the Hastings' articles; he re-emphasizes his endorsement of the "Eisenhower Briefing Document," "The Truman Forestall Memo" and the "Cutler Twining memo," while denouncing the Cooper docs.

Stan notes that he has rebutted all arguments against the a fore mentioned docs and then some; for those following the latest with the MJ-12 controversy, you'll find this a most interesting read:

Bird Droppings and MJ-12, Stanton Friedman Responds . . .

I must say that I am quite disappointed in Robert Hastings recent bird dropping and MJ-12 articles. Robert has done some fine work on the connection between nuclear installations and UFOs. But his recent opus seems to me to be painted with much too broad a brush with too many nasty personal attacks on people (Doty, Collins, Moore, Tim Cooper) and far too little investigation and discussion about the Majestic 12 documents themselves. I saw no mention at all of “TOP SECRET/MAJIC” my 1997 book updated with a 5000 word afterword in 2005. The entire focus is on MJ-12 documents, the reasons some must be labeled as phony and others as genuine. I see no mention of my several detailed MUFON Symposium Papers about MJ-12 or such items as my detailed review of Kevin Randle’s “Case MJ-12” . . .

The rest of the story . . .

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Frank Warren


Major Kevin Randle has interviewed many former military men who were part of the Roswell cover-up. The term he has been told of the top officials who would make up such a group is the "Unholy 13". That does sound more sinister than MJ-12, but it does indicate there really is such a group who are mentioned in the documents.

It should also be noted of the tireless research Mr Friedman has done on these documents, and much of the information he has found because of such research. The discovery of Dr Donald Menzel working with many top alphabet agencies should be well worth the research effort.

[edit on 4/12/2009 by kidflash2008]

I would like to know the story about Rick Doty and Joe Firmage. From what i have seen is that Doty really screwed Joe Firmage out of possibley millions for nothing. Many i have seen stand my Doty and his word on UFO's. But if this happened back in 99 what is going on. I knew something was wrong with Joe. He had backed away from the UFO community a bit. I have been in contact with his folks for over a year now and knew something was holding him back a bit. His name had come up recently conected to Doty and i thought since Joe probibly wasn't keeping up with this stuff that i must step in for Joe.
Could someone fill me in a bit before i call Joe's office and inform him of the recent posts.

thanks
Dave