Aliens Exist, but Cannot Travel to Earth: A Loss for the Believer's Community?

I visit the Astronomy Picture of the Day Website through Nasa, and yesterday they featured a picture of the moon taken by Jerry Lodriguss, a photographer and self-proclaimed amateur astronomer for decades.

Click here to read an article about a UFO sighting he had where he ended up deciding that what he saw was Venus. He follows the article with some good questions regarding the reality of UFOs, their origin, and some questions that I believe are good for everyone to keep in mind when addressing the topic.

At the bottom of the page, he links to another skeptic, Roy Paynter, a gentleman who has posted an interesting "FAQ" about the existence of extra-terrestrials. Some of the questions and answers he gives may be a bit outdated, but I believe it goes to show that ufology still has a long way to go before those of a "hardened-heart" are willing to accept certain aspects of the alien phenomenon.

The nice thing about Paynter is that he asks these questions, and proposes his own answer without being condescending towards those who do believe something is going on.

Now to the heart of it all: many scientists and astronomers agree, citing the Drake equation, that the probability of intelligent life existing elsewhere is extremely high.

So, is that enough for believers? Or do they have to be visiting Earth in order for it to have a significant impact on our thought process, our way of life, etc.? To me, it seems like the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligent life wouldn't have an impact unless the intelligent life were indeed visiting Earth.

If there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but it cannot travel here, will that be considered a "loss" within the believer's community?

citing the Drake equation, that the probability of intelligent life existing elsewhere is extremely high

I believe this equation has fundamental relevance in the believers' community', to say otherwise is just portraying sheer ignorance.

To believe that we are the only life forms in this giant jigsaw puzzle is just plain crazy. To say that there aren't any intelligent life forms more advanced than us, therefore cannot possibly obtain the technology to travel outside their own earth is just ludicrous and an old fashioned way of thinking.

Thankfully people are now starting to wake up and realise that humans aren't all what we are cracked up to be.

A lot of well respected researchers including Gordon Creighton,Timothy Good,John Greenewald Junior (and even astronaut Edgar Mitchell) have all speculated UFOs may well have an undersea or underground origin.

A cursory reading of this thread which documents a great many US/Russian/Canadian/British/Argentinian/Norweigan Naval USO incidents shows the idea is not that outlandish -especialy when one realises many of these unknown objects have been captured,tracked,plotted and corellated on (sometimes multiple) radar/sonar screens travelling at 'unheard of' speeds in 'unheard of' depths and witnessed by many credible individuals emerging from,or going into the sea:

USOs:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also,the testimony in this thread is interesting -
Puerto Rico underwater bases:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'


As for comments made by Roy Paynter,I think the main problem with the mainstream scientific community is 'wilful ignorance'.
Many scientists choose to forgoe their usual objectivity and instead just lazily assume the UFO/USO subject is 'a lot of silly nonsense'.
Because of this flippantly dismissive attitude they are completely unaware
of the many highly credible UFO/USO incidents and ,as a result, have a very hard time holding balanced,informed opinions.

Its interesting that the two most responsible individuals hired to
'actively reseach' the subject for their respective governments
(Dr Allen J Hyneck and Nick Pope) were also initialy sceptical of UFOs
yet, after years of impartial research and using the scientific tool of arriving at conclusions AFTER dispassionately examining evidence, they both completely reversed their positions and stated the subject to be a very real one.

Here are some revealing comments made by Dr Hyneck

1970s:

"Before I began my association with the US Air Force, I had
joined my scientific colleagues in many a hearty guffaw
at the "psychological postwar craze" for flying saucers
that seemed to be sweeping the country and at the naivete
and gullibility of our fellow human beings who were being
taken in by such obvious "nonsense." It was almost in a
sense of sport that I accepted the invitation to have a
look at the flying saucer reports....."

"I had started out as an outright 'debunker,' taking
great joy in cracking what seemed at first to be puzzling
cases. I was the arch enemy of those 'flying saucer
groups and enthusiasts' who very dearly wanted UFOs to be
interplanetary. My own knowledge of those groups came
almost entirely from what I heard from Blue Book
personnel; they were all "crackpots and visionaries.'"

1980s:

"Now, however, documentation which puts the UFO-
U.S. government controversy in quite a new light has
become available. The authors have made revealing use of
documents released through the mechanism of the Freedom
of Information Act and other data which have been made
available to them, often through private sources, which
show that the CIA and NSA protestations of innocence and
lack of interest in UFOs are nothing short of
prevarication."

"The reader must judge for himself or herself just
how far these implications extend, but certainly no one
can deny any longer that various intelligence agencies of
our government were long cognizant of UFOs and the global
extent of this phenomenon. Official dispatches from our
embassies and air bases in other countries to these
agencies, to the State Department, and even, on occasion,
to the White House, bear incontrovertible witness to
this."

"For the government to continue to maintain that
UFOs are nonexistent in the face of the documents already
released and of other cogent evidence presented in this
book is puerile and in a sense an insult to the American
people."

www.cohenufo.org...

Other highly credible UFO incidents like the Washington sightings of 1952;the Tehran incident of 1976 and the Alaska flight JA 1628 incident of 1986 (to name just three)
remain completely unexplained and leave UFO cynics(who think the subject fictitious or illusionary)with an awful lot of explaining to do.
Cheers.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Personally I believe there can be no doubt that life is not unique to our planet. Yet, I question whether or not there is any reason for life not from this planet to come here.

I don't think people really understand the distances involved and the level of technology required to travel these vast distances.

For die hard believers that think we're being visted, abducted and influenced well maybe it would seem like a "loss".

For myself knowing for a fact ( through some kind of scientific proof beyond any doubt) that life exsists would only be a vindication of what I already strongly believe.

Originally posted by Merigold

Unless of course we HU-MAN beings are the bi product of THEIR evolution and indeed they are monitoring our transitions?

[edit on 12-3-2009 by franspeakfree]

Originally posted by Merigold
I don't think people really understand the distances involved and the level of technology required to travel these vast distances.

That in itself is an assumption.

Of course its only speculation but sufficiently advanced civilisations
may well live off planet (free from volcanoes,earthquakes,comets etc)
in self contained ships.

This is the problem with 'assuming anything' about sufficiently advanced technologies -we just don't know.

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

I believe this equation (Drake equation-added by OP) has fundamental relevance in the believers' community', to say otherwise is just portraying sheer ignorance.

I agree with you completely; my apologies if it seemed by my wording that I was dismissive of its significance.

Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by Merigold
I don't think people really understand the distances involved and the level of technology required to travel these vast distances.

Of course its only speculation but sufficiently advanced civilisations
may live off planet (free from volcanoes,earthquakes,comets etc)
in self contained ships.

This is the problem with 'assuming anything' about sufficiently advanced technologies -we just don't know.

Cheers.

Great point; it very well could be the case here. One of things that many scientists struggle with is the distance and technology necessary for interstellar travel. I've heard a few theories about how it could be done theoretical. In fact, there are NASA (eek) scientists working under the assumption that it IS possible; with that, they're trying to solve the little questions of how it could be done with hopes of coming up with a significant answer. This subject is tackled briefly in the UFO documentary "Out of the Blue".

Originally posted by Merigold

For myself knowing for a fact ( through some kind of scientific proof beyond any doubt) that life exsists would only be a vindication of what I already strongly believe.

I'm in the same boat, completely. I'm a believer; but I'd like know more about which parts of my belief are accurate, and which aren't. I feel I'm informed enough to say the same thing as you; but beyond that, I'm clueless. That's what I'm after; some sort of validation that will further direct how I view this subject.

You also have to keep in consideration that we have no idea what an intelligent species (beyond our own) might be capable of. 1000 light years might take them 2 mins. I'm sure they use a more effective system of energy and they might have unlocked the secrets of the universe, space/time, quantum physics etc. They may have more efficient astronomy gear too! (Sort of like the Kepler telescope we just launched only way better). For all you know they might be able to use space time as a lens and zoom in on us from many light years away when at the same time we are looking back simply monitoring changes in light intensity to determine if their planet is really there. Just some food for thought.

Aliens Exist, but Cannot Travel to Earth: A Loss for the Believer's Community?

why is it alway's assumed that intelligent life has to be in the same parameters as us here on Earth ?

we haven't even finished exploring everything in our own solar system so the argument about Aliens not being able to get here as of now is ignorant.






[edit on 12-3-2009 by easynow]

reply to post by karl 12


I am familiar with most, if not all of the cases you've outlined here. Many of them are why I believe. I stumbled across the Tehran incident years ago and I was awestruck at what I was reading; I'd read the official declassified documents.

Then, by chance, I stumbled across the Disclosure Project a couple years later (yes, my education has been a slow one), and I heard ex-military folks talking about this very incident. If I didn't believe it before, I did then.

I did some of my own local research regarding the Roswell incident and the Washington D.C. flyovers. I live in a city that at that time had a population of about 30,000. I was flabbergasted going through old microfiche of our local paper, only to see article upon article of UFO sightings and incidents, with tons of coverage regarding Washington D.C. and Roswell...some incredibly huge, sensational headlines!

Seeing the coverage in my own local paper, in this small city, really hit home. I recommend everyone to engage in a little microfiche action.

Originally posted by easynow

Aliens Exist, but Cannot Travel to Earth: A Loss for the Believer's Community?

why is it alway's assumed that intelligent life has to be in the same parameters as us here on Earth ?

we haven't even finished exploring everything thing in our own solar system so the argument about Aliens not being able to get here as of now is ignorant.

I think one could say the same about the argument for them being able to travel here; where it's impossible, at least at this point to actually PROVE the negative, that they are not. It's the predicament we're in.

At the same time, I DO NOT assume that any other civilization out there would be on the same parameters as us on Earth. Could they be? For sure, given that there are potentially billions out there. IF they traveled here to Earth from their respective home? I think we'd have to assume that they're advanced in some form or fashion.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by Elepheagle]

[edit on 12-3-2009 by Elepheagle]

Originally posted by easynow

Aliens Exist, but Cannot Travel to Earth: A Loss for the Believer's Community?

we haven't even finished exploring everything thing in our own solar system so the argument about Aliens not being able to get here as of now is ignorant.

Very well said sir, exactly, how many people, that pose the question "is there life out there" forget to think about this?

double post monster

[edit on 12-3-2009 by franspeakfree]

To be quite frank, the fact that the scientific community is now saying that there is a mathematical probability that there are other intelligent lifeforms in the universe, is no suprise to anyone who has the ability to think about the sheer volume of space . There is too much of it, for any one thing to only occur in one place.
However, as I have felt obliged to mention before, to suggest that alien races are not capable of getting here, is baseless, arrogant, and above all illogical.
First of all , this sort of thinking comes from the belief (either conciously or subconciously) that if we cant do it, then no other race could. This of course is bunkum, but I can respond to that quite easily. IF we are talking about a race from another place in time and space, then what business have we, a race who have only traveled as far as our own satalite moon, to suggest that the science we use, has any baring what so ever, on the technology available to other races in the universe? Can we say , as a matter of fact, that there exists no technology or scientific thought out there, that is better, or different to our own ?
Who is to say what thoughts and dreams have come to members of a society we know nothing about? Most people cant even imagine what the people in a different continent think about , let alone beings from a different planet/part of the galaxy.
There is no scientific data to suggest that faster than light travel is impossible. All we know is , that we cannot do it . There is a difference. Quite frankly, the fact is that the opinion amongst debunkers and skeptics , that faster than light travel is impossible, is a misinterpretation of statements made by scientists. Stating that its impossible for us, is reasonable. Stating that its impossible in totality is not. If there are no technologies in the pipeline that would allow us to travel at lightspeed, then fair enough. But we cannot assume we know everything about the universe, and therefore we cannot assume that other races are as impared in that regard as we are.


scuse me , two edits for general structure improvements..apologies for the remaining awful grammar ,and absurd spelling mistakes.
[edit on 12-3-2009 by TrueBrit]

[edit on 12-3-2009 by TrueBrit]

Originally posted by Elepheagle
To me, it seems like the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligent life wouldn't have an impact unless the intelligent life were indeed visiting Earth.

This is a great point. Most of the educated world has accepted on some level that we are not alone in the universe, with little-to-no-effect on our daily lives.

Originally posted by Elepheagle
If there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but it cannot travel here, will that be considered a "loss" within the believer's community?

Two things wrong with this line of thinking.

First, one could never prove it is impossible for an extraterrestrial intelligence to visit the planet or that it will never happen.

Second, you ignore an operative word in your question, "believers." If a belief is strong enough, no amount of evidence will sway the believer. And due in part to my first point, there is no reason for them to stop believing.

suggest that alien races are not capable of getting here, is baseless, arrogant, and above all illogical.

Some laws of the universe are just that, laws of the universe. But let's say that they can travel here, why would they? I accept that at some point should we not blow ourselves up first of course, we will have the technology to travel vast distances, but why would we unless it was for resources? Then agin..why travel far for them?

We have nothing that isn't in abundance in the universe. Unless you subscribe to the the more ridiculous ideas of us being food for them, or they built the pyramids and such.

And yes, I agree we just don't know, but I do so enjoy speculating!

Are there other beings outside of earth? Almost defiantly. Do they poses the Tech and Will to visit others, including us? its possible, but not likely.

I hear on an almost daily basis that humans are dumb, yes, generally speaking, we are, but we have also made advancements and possess the possibility to do many things other creatures in our own back yard can not do.

Can a dog recycle? Can a cat fly a plane? can a mouse Find loopholes in the US taxation system? No, they can not.

You have to think about what it takes to travel one light year, and then apply that to traveling thousands of them.

Our spaceships are fueled by various means, usually liquid hydrogen. Well maybe ETs crafts are fueled by liquid farts. The point is that we really dont know until they come over and ghost ride their whip down main street.

In my oppinion you need a VERY OLD and VERY STABLE galaxy with evolutionary tendencies for your civilization to grow to the point of mastering space travel.

I predict that life is abundant in the universe, but Intellegent life might not be as abundant. there are millions of species of life forms here, but humans are the ones who are "in charge". If there are other life forms on other planets, then sheer mathematics would dictate that they would more likely be similar to cosmic cousins of dogs or cows or whales or something.

Originally posted by Elepheagle
If there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but it cannot travel here, will that be considered a "loss" within the believer's community?
------

Two things wrong with this line of thinking.

First, one could never prove it is impossible for an extraterrestrial intelligence to visit the planet or that it will never happen.

Second, you ignore an operative word in your question, "believers." If a belief is strong enough, no amount of evidence will sway the believer. And due in part to my first point, there is no reason for them to stop believing.

Yes! Excellent. One cannot prove that it is not possible. A poster above hearkened to this idea as well. Personally, I don't believe that it is impossible. However, I'm not sure how it would be possible either in terms of actual scientific formula. Sure, it would be ignorant to say that there's no way they could. Just because we can't figure out the right way to do it doesn't mean it's impossible. At the same time, figure out how it IS possible would do great things.

In taking a look at our civilization, I would like to know where we are in terms of other civilizations out there. Are we right in the middle, and average? Are we primitive in relation to the majority of others out there? Or, are we ADVANCED relatively speaking?