OK Catholics....Convince me

The Catholic Church has been accused of many things ranging from hiding scriptures, deceiving the masses, corruption or even being part of the ‘Illuminati’ and orchestrating the New World Order.

Is any or all of this fact or are they simply a popular branch of Christianity that has fallen victim to the tall poppy syndrome?

I am not in any way prepared to convert to Catholicism (unless someone puts forward a damn good argument) but I like many would like to see that they are not behind so many heinous crimes or involved in so many corruptions as people like to think.


[edit on 7/3/2009 by VIKINGANT]

There not part of the 'Illuminati' St Malachy lists only a couple more popes.

Seems like they are going nowhere to me.

I don't know to be honest.
But they are definitely the controllers of the planet.
There is something odd about them.
The pope with that upside down cross.
Many think the catholic church is just an evolution of the Roman empire.
They saw that Christ was popular, so they became the boss of what was popular.
And if you look into it, it seems this might be true.

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
The Catholic Church has been accused of many things ranging from hiding scriptures, deceiving the masses, corruption or even being part of the ‘Illuminati’ and orchestrating the New World Order.

Is any or all of this fact or are they simply a popular branch of Christianity that has fallen victim to the tall poppy syndrome?

I am not in any way prepared to convert to Catholicism (unless someone puts forward a damn good argument) but I like many would like to see that they are not behind so many heinous crimes or involved in so many corruptions as people like to think.


[edit on 7/3/2009 by VIKINGANT]

If they are hiding scripture how would the average Catholic know about it?

If they are being decieved how would they know it? It has been the same message for a very long time.

If the Church is secretly part of the Illuminati or the NWO how would they know?


You ask them to convince you of something that they would have no knowledge of. Why don't you some reverse thinking and try and convince yourself?

reply to post by jd140


I see your point, but there are those I am sure that will have answers to these and other questions. Or at least feel they do. I am just looking for convincing arguments that they are not as evil as they have been made out to be.

reply to post by VIKINGANT


You've got it backwards.

You listed the crap that the Catholic church has been accused of and then told Catholics to convince you that the Church isn't guilty.

You should be asking those that did the accusing to convince you that their accusations are true.

Innocent unless proven guilty, right?

See if you can get them to convince you that these accusations are real by using reliable sources. Not Jack Chick. Not fundamentalist protestant bigotry. Not a scripture spitting contest. That's a better challenge.

to understand the world as it is you really need to understand the catholic church.

the catholic church in history shouldn't even be thought of as a religion, it's misleading, they were more like a multi-national corporation that controlled the governments of europe.

the religion did control the world, in a world where kingship is bestowed by god, god's representative on earth (the pope) is an important man. because of this, the religion had huge political power and attracted everything that this kind of power inevitably attracts.

times have changed, the world has changed. science and protestantism are the big powers in the english speaking world. catholicism still has a bit of influence in the 2nd and 3rd world but they don't have enough to abuse it, really.

all in all, at this stage, catholicism is fairly benign. they have less chance of being invited into any cabals than a top exec at shell or sony. to be fair, they just don't have the political clout.

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
The Catholic Church has been accused of many things ranging from hiding scriptures, deceiving the masses, corruption or even being part of the ‘Illuminati’ and orchestrating the New World Order.

let me know when you can go sneak around the vatican library to debunk these hideous allegations

Is any or all of this fact or are they simply a popular branch of Christianity that has fallen victim to the tall poppy syndrome?

There is no truth. Only half truths, embellishments, and tactics employed before the new testament was written and perhaps well beyond the old as well.
it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with religion at the very same time for many reasons, most of which I haven't the time to get into, however tall poppy syndrome is just a synonym for the phenomenon of "haters"
Everyone(the collective majority) falls victim to the hater mentality because we live in a society where cash is king and I would even go so far as to say that its due to human and universal nature.
Human beings need attention to survive childhood. If it becomes a weakness in any way the results will definitely vary, but society is designed to exploit these as well as other weaknesses in several ways..this is just an example

I am not in any way prepared to convert to Catholicism (unless someone puts forward a damn good argument) but I like many would like to see that they are not behind so many heinous crimes or involved in so many corruptions as people like to think.

you cannot pin the crimes of today, tomorrow, or yesterday on any select group or groupings of people. It just doesn't work that way. Money rules the world. And technology(magic for the uninitiated) in All of it's forms, rules the collective mind...to a degree....nothing is absolute...

I encourage you to weigh the evidence out for yourself and make your own choice, why allow someone to use words to convince you of what your religion should be?

When I discovered the real atrocities of the catholic church I had already been confirmed into the catholic church and rec of a few in my congregation who were actual Jesuits. It was looked upon with much reverence in the catholic community I was raised in. It didn't take long for me to realize that religion had absolutely nothing to do with spirituality was a definitive conclusion I drew which IMO is both 100 correct and 100 percent incorrect at the very same time. Why? Because time like anything else is perception.

Nobody would like to think for the worse but you have an account at ATS, so why torture yourself? Even people that have never even heard of ATS don't like to think for the worse and I myself have been wondering if it is simply best to just enjoy the last remnants of freedom with family and friends or keep up the good fight and expose reality for what it truly is.......whatever you want it to be.

Have a great day





[edit on 3/7/2009 by iiinvision]

I have never been able to understand one thing about the Catholic faith.

Why do they pray to saints and the Virgin Mary when Jesus said not to worship anyone or anything but the Father in heaven ?

you are mixing everything. the faith has nothing to do with the mostly crappy allegations you have mentioned.

you want to really find out, than buy yourself the books or watch some videos with JPII and listen to him for a while. you will be surprised.

Catholics are now working hardest to get close to all other major religions. and we are the last ones to underline the differences between and concern on showing the similarities. but we are still under attack in return.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by VIKINGANT

 

You've got it backwards.

You listed the crap that the Catholic church has been accused of and then told Catholics to convince you that the Church isn't guilty.

You should be asking those that did the accusing to convince you that their accusations are true.

Innocent unless proven guilty, right?

See if you can get them to convince you that these accusations are real by using reliable sources. Not Jack Chick. Not fundamentalist protestant bigotry. Not a scripture spitting contest. That's a better challenge.

Are you trying to say that the history of the Catholic church isn't true?

Are you trying to say the crusades never happened? Are you trying to say inquisitions never happened? Are you trying to say that directly after the catholic church is formed we don't enter into the dark ages?

Are you trying to say that people weren't killed for saying things like the world isn't flat?

On and on. You are just posting cop outs.

[edit on 7-3-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by munkey66
I have never been able to understand one thing about the Catholic faith.

Why do they pray to saints and the Virgin Mary when Jesus said not to worship anyone or anything but the Father in heaven ?

Because it is the anti-christ religion. Jesus says you aren't supposed to make teachers or leaders of yourself period.

Paul teaches that he is the father, not god.

1 Corinthians 4 (King James Version)

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

So Paul teaches God is not the father, Paul is. He teaches not to follow Jesus, but to follow Paul. He does these things in "the name of Jesus", and praises "Jesus", just like an anti-christ, but then leads people astray and tells people to follow him, not the father, not Jesus.

Jesus even describes the pope.

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

And of course, he denounces the entire system, not just those who sit there.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

[edit on 7-3-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


all true. but what it has to do with the religion itself? the Catholic teaching goes the opposite side. so I agree that there was a lot bad things in history (but it is a lot BS going around too) but I belive not in crusades but in my holy readings and lessons from JPII.

if I would say - convince me to stay American (and I know there are a lot fantastic things and values (freedom for example) Americans do and belive) and than I would say - you can do it if you convince me that you did not get rid of Indians in the brutal and unfair way, that you did not bombed the Hiroschima, you did not ... - what will be your reaction to it?

Originally posted by czacza1
reply to post by badmedia

 

all true. but what it has to do with the religion itself? the Catholic teaching goes the opposite side. so I agree that there was a lot bad things in history (but it is a lot BS going around too) but I belive not in crusades but in my holy readings and lessons from JPII.

if I would say - convince me to stay American (and I know there are a lot fantastic things and values (freedom for example) Americans do and belive) and than I would say - you can do it if you convince me that you did not get rid of Indians in the brutal and unfair way, that you did not bombed the Hiroschima, you did not ... - what will be your reaction to it?

I point out those bad things America has done. I do not turn a blind eye to it. I was one of the few people who was against the Iraq war from the start and took a ton of flak off people for being vocal about it.

I knew right away that Iraq war was BS. Because when someone is actually a threat to us, we treat them diplomatically, and the WMD we gave them and knew they had expired years before the war.

I point it all out. It doesn't matter "who" does it, what matter is "what" they are doing.

If you want to make the comparison that what the leaders do is not a reflection of the people themselves, then I fully agree. I am not trying to say that these are the qualities of any catholic by default or anything like that. I point out that such thinking is like equating Hitler to ever human because Hitler was a human. However, I will certainly point out those fruits because they do matter, it is important, it is a lesson to be learned from.

But when you have people apologizing and stuff, it's another story. It reminds me of Psalms 82.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

I'm not accepting the wicked no matter what name or symbolism they hide behind. No matter what organizations they belong too. And I'm not going to sit by and not say anything either. How can I rid the poor and needy of the hand of the wicked if I am silent? How can I do this if I ignore the fruits of the wicked?

When I talk about the catholic church and what I call the church of Satan I am not talking about the people who go. Those are just people who are deceived. I am talking about the organization itself and the leaders/positions of power. As these are the ones who do the deceiving. Those who are deceived are just poor in spirit. They are still blessed and when the real truth comes to them, they will know and accept it. If they were not good people at heart, they wouldn't need to be deceived. The truly wicked are not deceived, they know the truth but they hide it for their own gain. They are the ones who blasphemy the holy spirit.


Is there really any question who Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7?

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[edit on 7-3-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by munkey66
Why do they pray to saints and the Virgin Mary when Jesus said not to worship anyone or anything but the Father in heaven ?

Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints. Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints. That is - everyone can pray for everyone else and we are supposed to ask others to pray for us. That's what Catholics do. They ask people - those living and those already in heaven - to pray to God for them.

Catholics don't pray TO saints .. they pray THROUGH saints ... asking those saints to pray to God for them.

Originally posted by badmedia
Are you trying to say the crusades never happened? Are you trying to say inquisitions never happened? Are you trying to say that directly after the catholic church is formed we don't enter into the dark ages?

What are you talking about?

1 - I didnt' say anything about those things not happening. They weren't even part of the conversation. The author was talking about the New World Order and the Illuminati. He wasn't talking about the crusades or the inquisitions.

2 - Your bias and agenda are showing.

3 - The Catholic Church was formed MUCH, MUCH, earlier than the dark ages. You need a history lesson. The Catholic Church forming didn't cause the Dark Ages. The Catholic Church was formed at the very beginning of Christianity.

You are just posting cop outs.

Telling someone to prove their case that the Catholic Church is orchestrating the New World Order and is part of the Illuminati is a 'cop out' to you? No ... it's simply telling the person to make their case. People can't defend the accusations unless there is a case put forth first that those things are real. There hasn't been a case made by the OP that those things are real so there is nothing to defend. (yet)

Originally posted by badmedia
When I talk about the catholic church and what I call the church of Satan...

Oh .. that explains it .. you are one of 'those' ...

[edit on 3/8/2009 by FlyersFan]

Note: a pre-emptive request.

The topic of this thread is certain to become contentious. Before any members stray too far by falling into the temptation of personal attacks, I'd offer the following:

Please contain comments to the issue presented in the OP and refrain from expressing extremely negative personal opinions upon your fellow posters.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
What are you talking about?

1 - I didnt' say anything about those things not happening. They weren't even part of the conversation. The author was talking about the New World Order and the Illuminati. He wasn't talking about the crusades or the inquisitions.

Well I can't predict the future, so if they are a part of those things is a bit of a toss up I guess. However, no doubt that the catholic church and Christians themselves will not be happy until only their religion is the only world religion, which in itself implies that at least the same type of agenda.

2 - Your bias and agenda are showing.

I would hope so. I try to make it as clear as possible. I'm not trying to hide anything. I am against any organization that tries to take the place of god and creates themselves as authority figures over others. There is only 1 master, 1 father. If my bias and agenda is not clear enough, then please let me know because I will lay it out for you.

3 - The Catholic Church was formed MUCH, MUCH, earlier than the dark ages. You need a history lesson. The Catholic Church forming didn't cause the Dark Ages. The Catholic Church was formed at the very beginning of Christianity.

You are not going to try and tell me that the rock and peter is the formation of the catholic church. Jesus talks about building things upon rocks other times as well, and he is not talking about a physical rock.

In fact, Matthew 7 even goes so far as to directly describe the actions of the catholic church and the dark ages, and then talks about building a house on a rock.

Matthew 7
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Lets examine it a bit.

The catholic church who carried out the crusades, who carried out the inquisition, who killed people who did not go along. They did these things in the name of Jesus, but these were all done in sin. What is jesus going to say to these people?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And then he goes on and says only those who do what he says are the wise ones. And what does he liken that too? Oh yeah, like building a house on a rock instead of building on the sand of the foolish man. When Jesus is talking to Peter, he is talking about the knowledge and wisdom that he has given Peter that is within peter. Because it is within Peter, it is both in heaven and on earth, and no man can destroy it. A church is within, it is not a physical building. A physical building in those days where people worshiped was always called a synagogue.

The kicker is at the end, when who is taught they are the authority? The people. Who isn't? The scribes. Who are the scribes? The people who write and preach scripture. Hmmm, sounds familiar.

The "new" synagogue you can call a church, but it is still a synagogue. A rose by any other name still smells the same. It's still the same function, it still has the same leaders who:

Matthew 23
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Only rather than Rabbi it is some other name, as if to change the name of something makes it different.

But what does Jesus say of these?

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Sorry for posting so many long quotes like this, but it is important to keep the context and to show exactly how he is talking about these things.

Telling someone to prove their case that the Catholic Church is orchestrating the New World Order and is part of the Illuminati is a 'cop out' to you? No ... it's simply telling the person to make their case. People can't defend the accusations unless there is a case put forth first that those things are real. There hasn't been a case made by the OP that those things are real so there is nothing to defend. (yet)

If you were only talking about that part, and not the history then I think this is already cleared up.

Originally posted by badmedia
When I talk about the catholic church and what I call the church of Satan...

Oh .. that explains it .. you are one of 'those' ...

Revelation 2
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Of course, if you followed Jesus back then you were a Jew, and the "church" you went to was called a synagogue.

So hope I've made my agenda and bias clear enough for you. Not trying to hide it.



[edit on 8-3-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by VIKINGANT

It's a very enticing thread title but unfortunately the OP doesn't contain enough "meat" for me to get my teeth into. Its hard to convince you that its something which it isn't, perhaps easier to say what it is in relation to particular questions.

Inevitably such a thread will attract people who rather than responding to your title choose to make up their own thread title, i.e. "Let me convince you the Catholic Church is the Church of Satan."

I'm what would be called a devout Catholic and there are an awful lot of lies spread about the Church and a freedom to castigate catholicism in the Western world which would be entirely unacceptable for any other group religious or otherwise. For example endlessly on this forum a discussion of Catholicism will be greeted by someone refering to priests as pedophiles and writing off the whole institution with that accusation which is the equivalent of saying "muslims are terrorists".

I think something that might be convincing with regard to the grand conspiracies you outline is the amount of propaganda against the Church that has now become received wisdom. A lot of this has happened in the last 20 years when its criticism of state socialism having succeeded certain powers noticed that it was also as critical of unfettered capitalism.

One slight example is the Pius XII "Hitler's Pope" received wisdom, the history of which id fascinating and the utter lie that it is is astonishing. As a slight plug for a thread I thought was important was recent information uncove3red by a Jewish research group which is worth looking at and can be found in my signature.

Anyhow, I wouldn't try to "convince" you but if you have particular questions or issues you would like my opinion "from the inside" on I'd be very happy to try and offer them.

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
The Catholic Church has been accused of many things ranging from hiding scriptures, deceiving the masses, corruption or even being part of the ‘Illuminati’ and orchestrating the New World Order.

Is any or all of this fact or are they simply a popular branch of Christianity that has fallen victim to the tall poppy syndrome?

I am not in any way prepared to convert to Catholicism (unless someone puts forward a damn good argument) but I like many would like to see that they are not behind so many heinous crimes or involved in so many corruptions as people like to think.


[edit on 7/3/2009 by VIKINGANT]

IT IS FACT! I have finally gotten a few VERY DEVOTED Catholics to admit, they do not rest on the Tanakh (which to me was obvious) or even the NT.

They believe that God has abandoned His promise to mankind that He signed via the Jewish People and now only cares about the Church. He reveals Himself NOT through His Word or even the NT, but through the mouth of the Church.

In other words the MOUTH OF GOD IS THE ELITE IN THE CHURCH and the Pope is the mouthpiece.

I was told that Christ will gather the world together very soon.... So, I asked why not just do it themselves... prove they are now the chosen of God and put all that money into helping feed ALL THE starving people in the world.. to alleviate the stress with all that power that is in their hands, etc. because it is obvious they are greedy and power hungry snips.. or else they would ACTUALLY BE MANIFESTING GOOD on the earth rather than displaying all their power and riches in the faces of those who are hurting and in need. Why keep people (the world) waiting around when good is before them to do?

Be ready to be STRONGLY rebuked for DARE QUESTIONING the Church's authority. They get VERY angry at such valid inquiries. And since they are the revealing of God's authority, they are able to get by with some bold threats. (this is speaking of the Church and those who are devotely practicing Catholics ... i think most Catholics are not even aware of what it is the Church is doing and saying).



[edit on 8-3-2009 by justamomma]

I know how I was brought up, was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools from third grade until high school.

The Catholic Church has been accused of many things ranging from hiding scriptures, deceiving the masses, corruption or even being part of the ‘Illuminati’ and orchestrating the New World Order.

As a semi-serious response to this; so has just about any predominant group, including the obvious examples of Jews and Freemasons.

Is any or all of this fact or are they simply a popular branch of Christianity that has fallen victim to the tall poppy syndrome?

Probably more to it than it's just popular now to make fun of the Catholic Church but... I'll bet money at least a significant part of the stuff you here has similar origins to the similarly worded junk you here in regards to other religions and institutions.

Why do they pray to saints and the Virgin Mary when Jesus said not to worship anyone or anything but the Father in heaven ?
Originally by Munkey66

Excellent example, actually. It's not true that Catholics worship saints or Mary. The words of the prayers that mention Mary or the Saints are often worded "St. So-and-so, pray for us." Just as you'd ask a congregation to pray for a sick uncle, you are asking the saints to pray for you.
Personally, I don't like prayer in particular, since most people only pray when they have a request.

In other words the MOUTH OF GOD IS THE ELITE IN THE CHURCH and the Pope is the mouthpiece.
Originally posted by Justamomma

I was taught that the Pope is the fallible voice of God. A man who should (emphasis on should) do his best to interpret the book as God would want.
Of course you have people who take him to seriously, you have people in every religion who take aspects of their religion more seriously than the regular followers.




[edit on 8-3-2009 by RuneSpider]