(UK) Government plans travel database

(UK) Government plans travel database

news.bbc.co.uk

The government is compiling a database to track and store the international travel records of millions of Britons.

Computerised records of all 250 million journeys made by individuals in and out of the UK each year will be kept for up to 10 years.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Here's the thing...

...I totally agree with stuff like this if it helps to limit the movement of criminals/terrorists et al.

There is clearly a great revulsion to such monitoring of society but I am still puzzled as to why.

I have asked the question here on ATS before when it comes to Big Brother and the like - the quote below relates to a DNA database but it is the exact same principle:

So the government has your DNA, they have your personal details and they know your whereabouts at all times (RFID, CCTV or whatever) - what is it that they are going to do with this information that is so detrimental to you?

I ask this question honestly and in a non-argumentative manner as I do not see how I could be impacted by the government having my details on a DNA database. The only possible reasons I can think of are:

>>>They want to frame someone by using their DNA

There are far more simple, cost-effective, non-invasive, non-controversial and discreet methods for doing this.

>>>Monitor and remove dissenters of the government

You wouldn't need the DNA and besides, most dissenters are not too shy when it comes to public appearences against the government i.e. protests et al.

If there was a central governmental DNA database then what would they use it for?

It has still not been answered and I am still no nearer to understanding the massive fear of this information being held!

What is the big deal?

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 8/2/2009 by skibtz]

This doesn't even sound slightly sinister to you? At all? From the government who have #ed up our economy so badly even the French President is saying it, from the government who lies about ID card (80% of people want them!) and then keeps secret DNA databases on people who aren't even criminals, and was probably balls-deep in the 7/7 bombings...

...and we're supposed to trust these lunatics?

I think not.

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth


Governments will always be corrupt and self-serving, it's what they do best

What I want to know is what are they going to do with the information that is so detrimental?

Let's take you for example, they have all of your details in a database. Everything: DNA, whereabouts at all times, lifestyle habits, work habits, everything.

What is it that they are going to do with this information that is so detrimental to you?

Originally posted by skibtz
Governments will always be corrupt and self-serving, it's what they do best

Erm, well, I'm glad we've got that established then.

IT'S OKAY EVERYONE! NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT HERE!

Don't you see the problem with your very attitude regarding this situation? You're content to just accept a corrupt government, and then you say:

Originally posted by skibtzWhat I want to know is what are they going to do with the information that is so detrimental?

...?

What won't they do with it? Why shouldn't they frame you for something and take your house? Why shouldn't they ruin your life by saying you're a confirmed criminal, the databases say so, and a bloke on a fuzzy CCTV picture sort-of looks like you, so it must have been you, right? Jail for you, sonny.

Assuming they even give you a trial. How long can they hold you for simply because they think you're a terrorist? They've already abused terror legislations by ejecting an old man from one of the houses of parliament on "terror" charges because he was simply disagreeing with Labour, where does it end?

Originally posted by skibtzLet's take you for example, they have all of your details in a database. Everything: DNA, whereabouts at all times, lifestyle habits, work habits, everything.

What is it that they are going to do with this information that is so detrimental to you?

I'm glad you're okay with it. I really am.

I personally am not. I don't do anything to need to hide, for me it is the principal of the thing.

Honestly, please re-read what you put. Corrupt government, total omnipotence, powerless population...how can this be a good thing?!

Hey, first of all, drop the attitude - I am asking a serious question and am looking for a serious answer - with your theatrical posting skills you may well end up being The Last Man On Earth!

You say that the government could take your home and/or ruin your life.

Any government can do this at anytime - they do not need a database to do this. In fact, secret services worldwide have used this tactic many many times to bring down thousands of dissenters.

You then say that the database says that you are a criminal - well, it is a judicial system that will decide if you are a criminal or not, and if it so happens to be on record that you are a criminal and you are trying to leave the country then the database has done it's job.

As far as fuzzy CCTV images go, no court in the land uses these images to convict people if the image is not of sufficient quality and the suspect can be determined beyond reasonable doubt.

Right now I am totally ok with it. You have so far been unable to present a case against such a system. Everything you have raised against such systems have already been implemented without any public databases et al.

You say that you have nothing to hide - as far as I can see, these systems are designed to protect those of us with nothing to hide. And yet you are prepared to reduce global security, whether it be relating to serious crime, acts of terrorism or other activities that harm society, because to you it's just 'the principle of the thing'.

Are you saying that you are happy to impose your principles at the cost security?

And yes, I do believe that there are elements of terrorism that exist that are not government-sponsored. There are people who deal in arms, traffic vast quantities of drugs and men women and children in order to live the rich man's dream.

If systems like this can reduce the number of people who suffer at the hands of serious criminals then I am all for it and I am prepared to ignore your 'principles' to get the job done.

[edit on 8/2/2009 by skibtz]

Theres always two sides to the coin.

Sinister sounding? Yes, then again i spend a lot of time on ATS so a lot of things sounds sinister these days. Thats not a dig, i'm merely saying my eyes are opened now.

I can't talk, i think SF's with black heli's over NO is sinister.

Then again, a scenario if you will. A criminal is implicated in something like a terrorist attack, the only thing is, the suspect is saying they were a thousand miles away in another country at the time and was never anywhere near the attack site that day, they were in another country.

By the way, family members of yours were victims too. Would you still be so against a system that could prove they did travel to that attacked country that day?

I agree it's not great, but if it's used for what it's supposed to be used for and thats monitoring crims and terrorists, then i can't see a problem.

What i do have a problem with, is that the term "terrorist" is used so loosely nowadays by TPTB, soon all of us sat at this site will probably be labelled terrorists for speaking out against a government approved system.

Like i said though, always two sides to the coin.

People moan about CCTV, but when it's not there and they are a victim, they whinge.

People moan about the police, but if they weren't there, they'd whinge.

If your country was attacked, and systems weren't in place to deal with it, they'd whinge!

Keep smiling people and go outside often.....there are still beautiful things to see out there believe it or not!

CX.

Originally posted by skibtz
Hey, first of all, drop the attitude - I am asking a serious question and am looking for a serious answer - with your theatrical posting skills you may well end up being The Last Man On Earth!

And they called Churchill a warmonger for prophesying that Germany was re-arming.

I'm giving you a deadly serious answer, please pay attention.

Originally posted by skibtzYou say that the government could take your home and/or ruin your life.

Yes, they can, as they control the country's army, but now they can do it legally.

Originally posted by skibtzAny government can do this at anytime - they do not need a database to do this. In fact, secret services worldwide have used this tactic many many times to bring down thousands of dissenters.

...there is no such thing as a dissenter in a democracy. Dissent can only exist in an authoritarian state.

The fundemental principal of democracy is that the government is for the people, by the people. This is the core of the precept. If the public chooses the government freely, you cannot be a dissenter.

What you callously call a dissenter is really an actualised voter - you know, those things that democracy is built on.

Originally posted by skibtzYou then say that the database says that you are a criminal - well, it is a judicial system that will decide if you are a criminal or not, and if it so happens to be on record that you are a criminal and you are trying to leave the country then the database has done it's job.

That's great, but we now have laws, actual British laws, that say you don't have a trial, for over a month. The Judicial system will have no say then, will it?

Originally posted by skibtzAs far as fuzzy CCTV images go, no court in the land uses these images to convict people if the image is not of sufficient quality and the suspect can be determined beyond reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt is not a scientific measure. As in, if they are setting you up, this is not a barrier to that.

Originally posted by skibtzRight now I am totally ok with it. You have so far been unable to present a case against such a system.

You present your own case in this.

You've yet to explain to me how your self-confessed corrupt government will somehow turn out to be benevolent when they have total omniscience over the country.

Originally posted by skibtzYou say that you have nothing to hide - as far as I can see, these systems are designed to protect those of us with nothing to hide.

This is a wonderful argument.

"If you have nothing to hide, what are you worried about?" is the old chestnut that they use to try and push through measures that allow them to be in parts of your life in which they have no business being. It is not for the government to have any interference in where I go or what I do.

Originally posted by skibtzAnd yet you are prepared to reduce global security, whether it be relating to serious crime, acts of terrorism or other activities that harm society, because to you it's just 'the principle of the thing'.

Erm...its not just the fact it's the principle of the thing. It'd be the principle of the thing if it were Mother Theresa or Ghandi. People I could trust, you know? I'd say "Hey, Ghandi, I don't think you'll do anything bad, but why do you want to know where I went on holiday?"

With people who you have admitted are untrustworthy, power-mongering and corrupt, is it any surprise that I have a desire to curtail the amount of raw power these people control??

And don't talk to me about "global security", "acts of terrorism" or "activities that harm society" because, frankly, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about.

Tell me how many people died in terrorist attacks last year compared to legislations passed regarding inane aspects of people's lives, and i'll show you a rock that scares away tigers.

Originally posted by skibtzAre you saying that you are happy to impose your principles at the cost security?

No, but that is not the issue. There is going to be no terrorist invasion of Britain, because they simply don't have the resources to do it, and if they actually did manage to commit a massive atrocity (which is obviously beyond their resources) such as levelling half of London with a nuclear device, then they know that we'd be in their faces like a shot, and they don't have the power to stop us. You know, the reason they are performing terrorist acts and not just waging war.

What you have been deceived by are called false-flag attacks. They work. Hitler turned the newly-formed Republic of Germany into a dictatorship, and one of the key elements was the burning of the Reichstag.

History is not on your side, it is on mine. This has all happened before.

Originally posted by skibtzAnd yes, I do believe that there are elements of terrorism that exist that are not government-sponsored. There are people who deal in arms, traffic vast quantities of drugs and men women and children in order to live the rich man's dream.

Remove the word "vast" and you're close. You've been completely brainwashed to think that there is a turban-headed, ak-wielding Arab under every stone. These terrorist organisations are weak. This is a fact. They can't challenge the military superiority of a country, which is why they don't. They know it.

However, it's been built up by the western media into a terrifying boogeyman, like Hannibal to the Romans, that will come over here and destroy our civilization 'neath their sandalled feet.

You are under no threat.

Originally posted by skibtzIf systems like this can reduce the number of people who suffer at the hands of serious criminals then I am all for it and I am prepared to ignore your 'principles' to get the job done.

[edit on 8/2/2009 by skibtz]

Now this was the bit that scared me most of all...and unfortunately I'm running out of space to explain to you why this is ridiculous.

"Serious criminals" should indeed be caught and prosecuted. They should not be detained without charge, nor should all citizens be monitored "just in case" or whatever reason you want, especially by a government you see as being, frankly, evil.

Do you even know what the Magna Carta is?

[edit on 8-2-2009 by The Last Man on Earth]

If your not alarmed you should be. In a true, transparent, democratic society everyone should be treated equally, yet all of these databases are not for our benefit, but for the benefit of those who wish to control us. Why do you think that all politicians and certain celebs will be exempt from all of these databases.

Child database attacked over celebrity exclusions
www.guardian.co.uk...

Ministers have shelved plans to exempt MPs' expenses details from the Freedom of Information Act, after the Tories and Lib Dems said they would fight it.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Your are truly naive & gullible if you trust a government that is rotten to the core.

Every time we give in to another 'data base',cctv system or whatever invasive slight of hand they come up, we wave good bye to freedom.
You have to see the long term picture,all these individual policies seem innocent enough but when you add them all up it gets frightening.
Please stop using the threat of terrorist all the time,it becomes so depressing to see how much the MSM/BBC have control of your thoughts.

Of course they need this database, how else will they be able to determine how much of our personal annual travel allowance we have used once all the climate change laws come into force.

Far fetched?.... maybe.... but it was the first thing that came to my mind when I read that article.

[edit on 8-2-2009 by cazzy2211]

Brainwashed, naive, gullible, MSM-controlled!

Geez. Is this where I get to start name-calling?

I like this quote by Phil Woolas.

Minister of State for borders and immigration Phil Woolas said the government was determined to ensure the UK's border remained one of the toughest in the world.

I have a friend who works for the Border Agency ( was customs ) and even he admits our borders are more like a sponge.
It really is a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

What I do really detest is the fact that every new law the govt try passing or new database they want to create, they always put the nice little tag of the database is essential in the fight against crime, illegal immigration and terrorism.

I wouldn't take it personally skibtz, people are simply stating facts. Would you accept a free weekend break at a luxury resort, inc free sauna & shower, if you knew Hitler was the owner. I sincerely hope not.

Lets face it, most of these politicians passing these laws aren't any better, which is a serious cause for concern.

Originally posted by kindred
I wouldn't take it personally skibtz, people are simply stating facts.

Yeah

But the thing is, one man's fact is another man's fiction.

Not necessarily, if what someone is saying is backed up by irrefutable proof or evidence, then you'd be unwise to ignore it. It's obvious to anyone that the EU & New Labour are obsessed with collecting information on everyone. Unfortunately they keep losing it, which is another valid reason not to trust them.

Originally posted by kindred
Not necessarily, if what someone is saying is backed up by irrefutable proof or evidence, then you'd be unwise to ignore it.

Why not necessarily?

Give me one thing that is indisputable fact, something that 100% of the human population know to be a fact.

I will save you some time...there is nothing that is.

There are people that do not believe that this world exists as it does for others. They believe that they are in a 'matrix' of sorts.

There are theories that this universe is a hologram!

Did we go to the moon? There is irrefutable proof/evidence we did just as there is irrefutable proof/evidence we didn't.

Just because you believe something to be fact does not make it so for everyone else.

As I said, one man's fact is another man's fiction. And that is probably the only fact that is a fact!!

It's obvious to anyone that the EU & New Labour are obsessed with collecting information on everyone. Unfortunately they keep losing it, which is another valid reason not to trust them.

No it is not. It is a supposition of for some. It is not a fact.

There are plenty of reasons not to trust them

All I am asking for in the OP is what will they do with these databases that is so detrimental to us.

Ideas have been put forward but the fact is that these ideas are happening without these databases etc.

Rather than being a problem maybe you/we should come up with alternatives.

If you had the power, how would you eradicate problems relating to people trafficking, international drug trading and immigration et al?

Or are these not really issues? Maybe the governments made all of this up?

For me having the government loose my data which included my name, address, some bank details and NI number was enough to turn me against these centralised databases. They can’t be trusted to keep it safe let alone not abuse it.

To answer your question there are many things that could be done with it from the extreme removal of political rivals to the more mundane selling of personal data to private entities (like insurance companies). Or it could just be what has happened to me and many thousands, if not millions of others, plain old data loss.

They probably won’t do anything with the data that would affect the average man on the street and those cases of abuse that do come up will probably be redressed but that doesn’t mean the potential for harm shouldn’t be limited. As you say the government could take away my home and stick me in prison right now if they really wanted but that is no reason to make it easier for them.


As another poster said there is also the principle. To illustrate this may I have your name, address and telephone number; you can PM them to me and I won’t share them. Chances are I’m not going to do anything with them and if I did ATS could help in tracking down my IP address so there is little to worry about, but are you willing to do it?

I'm sorry it's been documented countless times that the government has lost valuable data, so it is a fact, or you can continue to live in a state of denial, if that's your prerogative.

If we had a government that was transparent and trust worthy, it probably wouldn't be a such a big concern for most people, but the truth is we don't, therefore it will continue to be a concern for most people. I for one will not willingly be handing over any of my confidential data to this government or the EU and they can shove their biometric ID cards where the sun don't shine.

so the incomputant goverment wants to take more of our details and now Travel arrangements,

*Day One*
List compiled of people traveling to Dubai
along with their Full names and address

*Day Two*
Goverment Loses USB stick/Laptop containing all or partial details

*Day Three*
USB/Laptop found by passer by

anyone see the picture?

the morons cant be trusted with anything