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Physicians holding patients hostage to medication?

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posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 08:54 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

This is a medical issue, but it's also a bit of a rant.

Currently my friend is taking two simple medications, a water pill and an ACE inhibitor. They are effective safe and not controversial methods of controlling mildly high blood pressure.

Their BP is about 120/90 and stable. Ideally, it should be about 118/80-ish.

The MD gives them a four-month supply of refills, but then requires an office visit to refill those.

This seems to be tantamount to holding the patient hostage - they will not refill essential medications if the patient doesn't feel the need to go into the office to get a brief physical.

The problem with going into the Dr's office include:

1. Sick people go there. If you sit in the waiting room you will be coughed on by sick kids and adults; Want to catch a cold? Go to a daycare center, a physician's office or a school.
; In fact Hospitals are a leading cause of death (due to nosocomial infections and Surgical blunders)

2. Door handles and knobs and chairs and paperwork are contaminated. Being in infection control, I know that those items are frequently contaminated with Staph, Strep and other bacteria and with viruses. In the old days they used 'brass doorknobs' in hospitals because bacteria doesn't live on them.

3. They try to push other drugs, specifically Cholesterol drugs. My friend went in and got an erroneously high (lab error?) Cholesterol test and on the basis of one test they INSISTED the friend go on these potentially dangerous drugs (Statins), and the MD looked at them as said 'YOU are going to DIE unless you take these'. Being that the test was erroneous, the MD created HARM by saying this, causing a elevated BP and depression.

4. In the event of a catastrophe, such as a flood, power outage, or meltdown of society, having ONLY a four month supply of medication puts people at an incredible risk. (This is a system problem, including Medicare payments and insurance payments as well - if you have a prescription you can only get one month supply of a medication.
 

In fact the Physician could help out with this. They could put you on a double dose of a relatively benign medication (say a water pill) and write the prescription for three doses per day when really that would be fine, but you could also get by on one. This is not really cheating anyone, and with many medications is within standard practice. This would cut visits and pharmacy costs by 1/3 to poorer patients.

For example instead of getting 30 tablets of a water pill, the patient could get a 6 month refill of 3x/that dose (still safe) and only take 1 per day, allowing a prescription to be filled for 90 tablets (these are VERY inexpensive and if a problem was felt with cheating Insurance the patient could pay out of pocket). That would mean the patient could stockpile a supply for the purposes of emergency, and they would be ok for about 18-24 months before a revisit would be needed. (obviously you would NOT do this for drugs with abuse potential, strong pain killers, etc)

In fact the Physician DOES do this with a pain killer drug (a mild NSAID like Advil), and has the prescription written for 3x per day when 1x per every other day suits the patient just fine. IOW, they are abridging the system, but selectively.

I'd think that if the patient is responsible and the medications are mild that the Physician should be willing to give one-year's worth of medication, by either slightly over prescribing or writing refills for every 12 months not every 4 months.

I would argue that most healthy people don't need to visit the Doctor more than once every two years. Going in more often just turns people off for reasons I posted above (risk of infection, over-medication, and negative psychological issues).

The medical profession seems to want to give us the impression that 'you are sick in some way, we just need to find it'. It's unlike the Oriental or Chinese system where the emphasis is on wellness and the MD pays you a modest amount (credit?) if you get sick under his care.

So what do Members think? Is this a valid rant? Is my friend over-reacting? Couldn't diet and exercise solve these minor problems just as easily? Is the current cut-off for 'mild hypertension' too low? (it was lowered recently)? Are physicians just trying to 'stay in business' by making you visit them more often?

I think it's bordering on negligence, malpractice and subverting their Hippocratic Oath ("First, do no Harm").

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 1/5/2009 by Badge01]



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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I agree with your sentiment.

Doctors today act like quacks, and snake oil salesmen. Except this time the snake oil actually kills us.

Thats why I refuse all medications from doctors, and if they claim Im gonna die, I laugh at them.

I know we all die one day, so why waste your whole life trying to prolong it? Pointless IMO.

Thats why I dont take medication. I just live my life. If I die, i really dont care. Its nature.

They are basically "blood letting" still, just in more subtle ways.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by Badge01

I think it's bordering on negligence, malpractice and subverting their Hippocratic Oath ("First, do no Harm").

[edit on 1/5/2009 by Badge01]


Massive Understatement IMO.

They arent "boardering" on it as i see it, they are neck deep in it.

Its because they love $$$ so much (among other reasons).



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 09:33 AM
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I think a lot of people here might agree. I have always studiously avoided chronic medications, with the exception of Birth Control.

As a teenager, I couldn't have told you why I refused to take the daily acne medication (my apologies, the name eludes me). However, there was an incident that set me on my path to discovery as an adult.

A couple years ago, I had a simple procedure to open my (severly) narrowing esophagus. As a result of the procedure, it was discovered that I had a duodenal ulcer. Now, this was news to me. I occassionally experience some of the symptoms, but it was never anything that bothered me. The pain always went away and life continued.

When I woke up, the doctor told me her findings and persented me with a prescription for some drug (of which I have since forgotten the name. It was along the lines of Pepcid) and iron. She told me I would have to take those 2 drugs for the ulcer. As the conversation went on, I asked her if the drugs would heal the ulcer - she said no, but they would help the symptoms. Ignoring the fact that I hadn't experienced any symptoms to speak of for a moment, I reminded her that the iron could cause severe constipation - she whipped out her script pad and wrote me one for a laxative, to be used when needed.

At that point, feeling ill from my procedure and wanting to go home, told the doctor that unless the drugs would cure my "illness" then I would not be taking them. At that point, she became very unprofessional, and lets just say I went back for my followup, then put the doctros office on my phone block list.


Doctors absolutely refuse to acknowledge the effect that diet and exercise have on your physical well being. I used to work with someone who has so bought into it, that he eats McDonalds and other fast food 7+ times per week (this is just me counting when I saw him at work) not believing it has any effect on his weight and several chronic conditions he has.

I do get it. There is no money to be made in teaching people how to be healthy. To abuse an old metaphor, If you give a man a fish, he'll keep coming back to you to get more and more fish. You teach that man how to fish, and he puts you out of business getting his own.

I have a hard time fathoming that doctors could be so callous and cruel when dealing with human health. SOme people are. Unfortunately, you have the rest who are so far indoctrinated by Pharma "education" that they really believe the old saying "better living through chemicals".



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 10:07 AM
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I don't see a gripe here.

A lot of this has to do with the regulations the feds have set up, not the docs.

And a lot of followups are for a reason. They have to see if the patient's meds are still working. Do you really want someone to go a year without having their bp checked?

And the effectiveness of medicines cannot be guarenteed.

And anyone can develope a reaction to a medicine at any time.

NSAIDS, while they can be purchased over the counter, still have a lot of problems.

They can cause stomache bleeding problems, or holes in the intestinal tract. Much less at high doses that prescriptions can.

If medications were completely harmless, they would not have to be prescribed. They have to be monitored, and the body always changes, and the body's chemicals can change. BP can change. It can get worse, or better.

Considering that I have my own ailments, going to the doctor every three months is nothing to me.

And the complaining of it is just sheer laziness. It is not a chemical leash. Your friend can just opt not to take the medication if he is so resentful.

Or is just he is really resenting the disease? And having to see a doctor for it?


I suffer from hypertension myself, at a young age. Purely genetics. Nothing can be done about it then medicate.














[edit on 5-1-2009 by nixie_nox]



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 10:21 AM
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To the OP and others from the US ........ this is the crux of the problem you guys have ....... paying privately for your healthcare.

In the UK and most other European countries, we do not have this problem. It matters not a jot, to the doctor whether you decide to go to him or not, he will get paid regardless. He doesnt get paid per prescription nor does he get a 'back-hander' from the drug companies. He gets a standard salary.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 10:53 AM
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Speaking of being held hostage to medications, two years ago I was diagnosed with Latent Auto-immune Diabetes of Adulthood. LADA. I'm now a type one Diabetic requiring Insulin 4 times a day. I'm held hostage by insulin. This is coming from a guy that had never been to the Dr. untill my wife diagnosed me after a particularly nasty virus that led me to the E.R. for a I.V. of fluids. Most diabetics are overweight and eat crap all day with no activity. Not me, I just got unlucky and am now a servent of Insulin. Bummer.

Is diabetes a thinning of the herd type of disease? Just wondering.

TU



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by The Undertaker
 


Most type 2 Diabetics are overweight while most type 1 diabetics have problems putting weight on, that is intil they become Insulin Resistant, at which point they would have Types 1 & 2 Diabetes. Sucks!

Being diagnosed with type 1 as an adult is rare but does happen. You'll find that many times a virus is the cause of this.

To the OP: Great Post Badge! I was thinking of this earlier this week. Star and Flagged.



Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Badge01

I think it's bordering on negligence, malpractice and subverting their Hippocratic Oath ("First, do no Harm").

[edit on 1/5/2009 by Badge01]


Massive Understatement IMO.

They arent "boardering" on it as i see it, they are neck deep in it.

Its because they love $$$ so much (among other reasons).


I don't think the practitioner him/herself would base a decision on money directly but might however, base it on pressures brought on by Managers/Owners of said practice. Unfortunately, as many in this forum have pointed out, this is a business. A business which, like all others, is focused on money and customer retention.

Is this a violation of the Hippocratic Oath? Depends on interpretation, I guess.

We've also got to take into consideration the influence that Pharma companies and reps have on these doctors.

-Dev



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


Hi Nixie,

I'm glad to see a dissenting voice here. All too easy to get on the anti-doc bandwagon.

I see a lot to agree with in your comments. We do resent our disease and it's VERY easy to blame the doctor.

Would you at least agree with the need to stockpile -certain- medicines in the event of:

1. Going on an extended camping trip where you're out of touch with an MD. (Again, only for certain medicines).
2. Being able to stockpile certain medicines in the event of a catastrophe?

One thought is that maybe we need to take the total control of our pharmaceuticals out of the hands of Big Pharm and Big Gubmint and Doctors with Big Egos?

If things break down, what are we going to do? Obviously everyone on life-long sustaining meds will die after a while. Diabetics, people with infections, people on Statins. Others will suffer.

There SO much reliance on the MD these days that we've lost control of ourselves and our lives.

My friend will not die due to lack of anti-hypertensive medicine or a water pill. They could go to a more sodium restricted diet and switch to a Mediterranean diet for any cholesterol problems and make sure their weight is near ideal. So many problems like this can be controlled without meds.

BUT, ACE inhibitors are very safe, and water pills are safe and judicious use of pain killers are safe (NSAIDs precautions you mention so-noted).

I think the 'rant' is valid to a degree in this specific case. I'm not really saying the solution to THIS problem is a sweeping change of the System, just a tweaking by the MD to 'cooperate' rather than restrict and keep a hold over.

Like one poster said, it's common now for MD's offices to say 'you don't follow our regime, we're dropping you as a patient'. Now why would an office do that over a case of mild hypertension? Is it a NEED to control your patients to play God? IDK.

Again, appreciate your points. Are you a Nurse or a Medical professional.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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As a physician, I would like to both agree and disagree with you, Badge. We are constrained by what the federal government tells us to do (both by reimbursement and by prescription writing practices). While it appears that an ACE inhibitor and Lasix might be considered "mild" mediciations, I would respectfully disagree with you. Lasix can cause renal failure if not taken properly (as well as causing hypokalemia due to its loop diuretic properties); and ACE inhibitors have a long list of side effects as well. I would never prescribe medications like this without checking my patients every 6 months, minimum. There are some medications that do not require such a close monitoring (synthroid, plaquenil to name two of them), and I have no problem prescribing them for 1 year periods. The problem is, medicine is not a science, no matter how much we would like it to be. A BP medication that works well for 10 years might sudden not work at all for a person. I wish that there were cut and dried absolutes, but there isn't.

This "science versus art" approach to medicine is the thing that is frustrating to both patients and physicians. I am sure that most people have a friend or family member that received a drug, or a vitamin supplement or a treatment that simply worked miracles with them. Then, when they tried it... it didn't work at all. It makes an already difficult process (maintaining health and treating disease) even harder. In the end, the system isn't perfect... and neither are doctors. We just do the best that we can. Someone said that "doctors are just egoists and in it for the money". I would not disagree with that... but I would also point the poster to the many organizations that doctors donate their time and money to. Doctors without Borders, free clinics, and mission trips are just a few of the many ways that doctors give their time and expertise (and oftentimes their own money) for free.

So, I suspose that you can't stereotype doctors... just like you really can't stereotype anyone else (well you can, but you are usually inaccurate).

Just my two cents worth....



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by Amniodarone
 



Hi, Amniodarone. Good reply.


Questions...

I was told by my own doc that ACE inhibitors had virtually no side effects and had a number of additional side benefits, such as health of the vessels...no?

I looked it up and the other is not Lasix which isn't prescribed much, it's Hydrochlorothiazide That is Potassium sparing, and might even improve (raise) levels.

My doc said that was safe also. But I think 6 months is a better time frame for an experienced patient with good compliance and low dose (only 25mg/day). (ACE/Lisinopril is only 10mg/day).

I have heard of ACE-inhibs causing a rash on the upper arms and upper body in some rare cases. What have you seen?

Good to hear your input!

What your thoughts on stockpiling or having a survival medicine chest in cases like excursions away from civilization? Some Survivalists pack a mini-pharm for a bug-out bag.

All the best!



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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The new rules governing doctors and patient medications and prescriptions are part of government sponsored "prevention"

I have been on two blood pressure medications for over ten years, and I always got my medications refill for up to a year.

Once a year the recommended physical with occasional visit of my "choosing" if something was not right.

Then the prescriptions were cut to three months at a time with obligatory medical visit to get a new one.

I got outraged and dared to tell the doctor that this was making me obligated to come to his office even if I didn't feel the need for medical assistance.

He explained that this is now how under government sponsorship.

It seems that big pharma lobbyist got away with making laws to keep patients as milking cows no only for them but for the medical practice also.

So don't be outraged get even, I am trying now very successfully with Chinese medicine and homeopathic medicine to get away from my medications for blood pressure, right not my blood pressure is going from 100/60 to the highest at 140/80/90.

The lowest number are now thanks to the herbal remedies I am taking along with my prescribed medication.

I just started the new herbs, so if it gets steady as the lowest I am taking myself from my calcium blocker and I will only keep my renin blocker as they lower hemoglobin and in my family that is a big problem we all have more than we need and that is actually a contributor of blood pressure on many people and they don't even know it.

I can not take ACE or BETA blockers as the interfere with the brain and I am very sensitive to their side effects.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 10:07 PM
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Physicians holding patients hostage to medication.

That is not all you have to deal with there are many doctors that will treat patients as they feel is right even though they are wrong,

I have fibromyalgia/ neurosarcoidosis
I keep running into doctors that do not believe in fibromyalgia so they don't want to treat it OR THE NEUROSARCOIDOSIS.
I only take one drug for both disorders (gabapentin) and these fools keep wanting to take me off the Gabapentin because they don't believe in the fibro.

I also have been asking doctors to test me for insulin resistance for 8 years.
none would do it.(have a family history mother and grand father)
I finely became a diabetic about 6 months ago.
Then they tested me for insulin resistance and found i was.
would i have become diabetic 6 months ago if years ago they had tested and found the insulin resistance. or would i have been able to put it off for a few more years with treatment (metformin)

In 2003 i was misDXed with castlemans disease.
In 2007 they found out there mistake i have sarcoidosis.
Why the problem there were two patholigist that tested the biopsy that was done in 2003 one did not know what i had, the other said he though it was Castleman's disease.
nether stained the tissue slides (would have shown the wrong antibodies for castleman's) or took photos of the slide samples for my records (these could have been reviewed be my later doctors at a better hospital(UCLA)
This would have saved me a lot of time and further testing to get it right.
the doctors finely got it right at UCLA but it took time for them to realise that i had sarcodosis not castleman's because the did not have enough information from the original pathology material and had to redo everything.

I also have been taking Statins for over 12 years.
did they help ????
I had a heart attack in 2006 and had a CABGx5 12 days later. Did they help???
my heart attack was likely from granulomas from the sarcoidosis not from cholesterol but they never checked because of the misDX of castleman's.

My biggest problem is with doctors that think i have no medical background and don't understand that i know when something is wrong with my body.
What they don't understand is i have been a EMT for over 30 years and know a lot more then they believe.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 12:32 AM
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Thanks for everyone's input this round, particularly Marge.


I had no idea of the origin of this, nor how pervasive it was.

On the EMT's comments about experience...

If you think about it, MDs who are PCP or generalists and don't do much hands-on work; they actually have LESS experience than EMTs and Physical Trainers and PAs.

They are often going by the book and not so much by a wide array of experience.

That's why I say 'if you have a problem (like a sports injury) go to a Doc who has successfully treated this kind of problem. Don't just go to a sports doc either - check out the kind of patients and outcomes.'

Some 'people' are not gifted and are actually unskilled as healers, (though trained). JUST LIKE any other profession.

My PT actually disagreed with my Sports Med doc. The PT was right. The SportsMed doc, a famous guy, got ANGRY at -me- and abusive. I had to call up the head nurse and say I was quitting him, he had an anger management problem, in my opinion.

Now, I am not without knowledge, having been a pathologist and clinical scientist for many years. So I had an idea of what was going on. But they don't want to hear it.

Armed with this knowledge I'll have my friend go inquire.

Thanks to all.


Also, sympathy and kind thoughs to all those who had to endure.



[edit on 1/6/2009 by Badge01]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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In Canada the doctors get paid a fee for every office visit. The last time I had to go to the doctor, I was suffering from a persistent flu causing breathing problems and was also suffering earaches. When I told the doctor my symptoms for the flu, and then preceded to tell him my ear symptoms, he shut me down. Told me flat out that he'd only deal with one problem a day, I should come back tomorrow for the ear problems. He said "two" problems required two visits; as he got paid per visit.

So perhaps they want you to return often for your refills, to keep their pockets lined and their mercedes gassed.

Do You Have A One Problem Doctor


Have you seen this sign in your doctor’s office? It reads, “One problem per visit, please.” An editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal says this sign is popping up in the offices of some family physicians. So how will the one-problem doctor affect your medical care? And how did this asinine situation happen?


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 02:38 AM
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reply to badge01

I have never had a problem with PAs (Physician Assistants)or RN/NPs Registered nurse/Nurse Practitioners
I have even worked with PAs and RN/NPs that were vol EMTs

It seam that I get along with PAs because they respect EMTs and trust that we also know what we are talking about.

the PA at the VA clinic i go to is a lot better then many doctors.
i also have been treated by RN/NPs Registered nurse/Nurse Practitioners
that were as good.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by Badge01
reply to post by Amniodarone
 


Questions...

I was told by my own doc that ACE inhibitors had virtually no side effects and had a number of additional side benefits, such as health of the vessels...no?

I looked it up and the other is not Lasix which isn't prescribed much, it's Hydrochlorothiazide That is Potassium sparing, and might even improve (raise) levels.

I have heard of ACE-inhibs causing a rash on the upper arms and upper body in some rare cases. What have you seen?


What your thoughts on stockpiling or having a survival medicine chest in cases like excursions away from civilization? Some Survivalists pack a mini-pharm for a bug-out bag.

All the best!


I apologize for "editing out" your other comments... although I thank you for them.
I'll attempt to answer your questions...

Although Merck is a "big drug company" I really like how they explain things. I figured that they could tell you about hypertension and ACE inhibitors much better than I could... so I found the link for it. I must warn you, unless you really enjoy medical stuff, you will find this incredibly boring. If you can't go through all of it... skip to the "ACE Inhibitors" section.

Hypertension

You can see that hypertension isn't a particularly easy condition to treat...and it can involve quite a bit of trial and error.

To answer your question about symptoms of ACE Inhibitors.... a dry cough is the most common symptom, although I have seen a fair amount of rashes as well. Angioedema is particularly worrisome.... and is worse in those not Caucasian and those that smoke. This is probably the most serious symptom... and it can occur even if you have been on the ACE Inhibitor for a long time.

I think that you should have at least a 30 day supply of your medication at all times... although the government does control this number as well... especially for controlled substances (obviously). I'm not specifically against stockpiling meds.... although I would suggest you keep a close eye on the expiration dates. Some of those meds lose potency quite quickly after their expiration date.

Hope that this helps.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by Badge01
 


I found out that if you have a good insurance that can be easily milk out with you, you become a better target as in my case, every time I got to the doctor for something even, I immediately are refer to doctors and doctors to get all kind of test and studies and you guess what, they all come back negative, so the only way I avoid the intrusive treatments is staying as much away from my doctor office as I can.

I can got to my doctor right now and tell him I want a test for anything and they will do it no question ask.

That is because my insurance pay for everything.

I heard of so many people that had trouble with doctors, I had too but not for lack of interest in my problems but the overwhelming interest, then the assortment of medication that they will love to put me on that actually I don't need.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 08:22 AM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


I think it goes a bit over board when a pre-natal vitamin won't be renewed without an office visit. And we wonder why health care costs are out of control.


They just want to be able to bill for it, even though their services are not required.

[edit on 6/1/2009 by kosmicjack]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by Amniodarone
 


Yes you are right hypertension is hard to treat, but with medication if needed and not over prescribed and remedies that you can find something to work with your body and mind it can be treated successfully and you can be able to stay away from more dangerous medications.

ACE inhibitors gave me from rashes, hives and swelling an during that time that I was on them my doctor never told me that this were side effects of the them.

I end up in the emergency room several times a year to get cortisone shots to stop the swelling but none of the doctors said to me that it was the pills.

I suffered for years with this condition until I decided to research myself and then confront my doctor with the side effects.

Finally I was take of them.

Then I was put in BETA blockers that I had to stop taking myself after three weeks and a emergency room walk.

They actually spiked my blood pressure, gave me panic attacks, could not drive, read and I went into depression all within three weeks.

Still once again my doctor told me I was depressed and needed antidepressant pills.

Can you believe that!!!! I fire her!!!!!!

The Calcium blocker doesn't give me any side effects but I think it doesn't work with me either.

The new pill I am taking right now is call Tekturna and it works with the renin produce in the kidneys that controls this hormone that is release in the blood and for some reason people that have higher hemoglobin count tend to have higher blood volume and renin is also higher.

It doesn't work for everybody but it does for me as my family from my mother side we all have high blood volume.

Now I am on herbs and they are actually working, my blood pressure in the morning is normal when usually used to be the highest even taking tekturna.

Because many blood pressure have a peak time and then the blood pressure rises again usually in the morning and late at night.

My has been lower at night and lower in the morning since I am taking the herbs.

So I see some light a the end of the tunnel after all.





[edit on 6-1-2009 by marg6043]




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