Scores killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by GamerGal

 

WOW really - egypt HUH - your agenda is so transparent now - the Egyptians don`t point GUNS at the UN and RED CROSS - thats ISrael

the Egyptians allow inspection of its nucalera reactors - the last time the IAEA tried to go near Dimona , a TANK stopped them.

so please stop making it out that the zionists are a shining beacon - they are most cetainly not.

and go read about the USS LIBERTY please.

Har,

I have to say I doubted your egyption reactors statement.

I googled it and Russia built the first nuclear reactor in Egypt in 1961-WOW!!!!!!!

Here is a link to the search, again, just WOW!!!Google

Originally posted by Harlequin



That is a Merkava 4 MBT , that is the turret armour breached completely and was hit by a Russian RPG-7VR , in use by Hamas

Its also said Hezbollah also have the much more dangerous and feared RPG-29 the same round used in Iraq to mobility kill the Abrams M1A2 and the Challenger 2.

They also have the TBG-7V , 105mm Thermobaric load.

i know that its most gruesome - and in the 1991 Paris arishow the USA were trying to sell the Apache as `battle proven` even before GW1 was over , but after 2006 - Russia has been selling the RPG7 range and RPG-29 range as battle proven against the latest western armour.

And people have been buying them up - since even brand new they weigh in under $3,000 (and can be bought in the sand box for under $1k)

The Merkeva IV is an up grade to the Merkava III after its spectacular failure in the 2006 Israeli invasion of the Lebanon. The incorporation of Chubham type armour has made it slower and more voluntarily. While it is more resistant to battle field launched missiles, it is open to closed quarter deployment of thermite grenades and shape charged devices.

The photos shows layers of ceramic armour plates that can be defeated by tandem deployment of new rpgs so the defenders of Gaza should set up a protocol of attacking the same point of the tank repeatedly. Thermite grenades will slice through the armour but will give time for the crew to escape so a Gazan defender should be on stand by to dispatch the crew.

[edit on 113131p://am3112 by masonwatcher]

What needs to understood - and is being ignored apparantly by certain people that BOTH groups , hamas (and hezbollah) and israel are both guilty of what is happening to the civilians - hamas launching rockets and the IAF randomly attacking.

what needs to be remembered but apparantly isn`t is that its people like you and me that are the ones to suffer - people like zeroknowledge who lives near by in israel and can see it happening and has a rather balanced view on the whole thing.

edit : spelling (as usual)

[edit on 29/12/08 by Harlequin]

Instead of looking at arms on both sides, it is time for a change.

How about there is no past

Everything starts new ,NOW.

Now, if Hamas attacks, they get punished.
Now, if Israel attacks, they get punished.

Both sides would be held up to the same rules.

NO, it was just a rocket-Nothing or punishment.
NO, we only went after a know Hamas terrorist-Nothing or punishment.

Either side would be punished the SECOND they break the peace-by any manner.

Sadly, I know this won't happen, but it is a real world solution for peace.

Once there is peace, both sides could enjoy the normal life that comes with peace.

reply to post by masonwatcher


the Merkava 4 was deployed in 2004 into army service after it started developement in 1999 , to replace the 15 year old merkava 3 `Dor-Delat`, so im sorry but when you say it was developed after 2006 , your a bit wrong there.

also it oes not have `chobham` armour as that is only in use by the UK and an export version to the USA.

what upset IDF commanders is how many M-4`s were lost to russian ATGM`s and RPG`s - mobility and full kills , although granted not as many as the M-3 which got a serious mauling and ultimately was one reason which forced the IDF out of the war in 2006

Originally posted by Harlequin
What needs to understood - and is being ignored apparantly by certain people that BOTH groups , hamas (and hezbollah) and israel are both guilty of what is happening to the civilians - hamas launching rockets and the IAF randomly attacking.

what needs to be remembered but apparantly isn`t is hat its people like you and me that are the ones to suffer - people liek zeroknowledge who lives near by in israel and can see it happening and has a rathe balanced view on the whole thing.

You are close; both sides need to be stopped.

That said, Hamas openly admit it targets civilian.

Israel targets Hamas who hide behind civilians.

That truth said, both need to be stopped.

"BOTH" need to have a realization that they will be severely punished if they break the peace.

No, it’s just a rocket.
No, it was just a Hamas terrorist.

Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, if another country interferes and tries to start problems-Iran-, they get just as badly punished.

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by masonwatcher

 

the Merkava 4 was deployed in 2004 into army service after it started developement in 1999 , to replace the 15 year old merkava 3 `Dor-Delat`, so im sorry but when you say it was developed after 2006 , your a bit wrong there.

also it oes not have `chobham` armour as that is only in use by the UK and an export version to the USA.

what upset IDF commanders is how many M-4`s were lost to russian ATGM`s and RPG`s - mobility and full kills , although granted not as many as the M-3 which got a serious mauling and ultimately was one reason which forced the IDF out of the war in 2006

I didn't know the mirkin 4 was developed that early but I know that the armour was upgraded. Also a few mirkin 3s wear directly knocked out, about 8.




The rest were damaged due to panic in the Israeli lines.

reply to post by Harlequin

and how, twice , the admiral of the CBG was ordered by first his commander then by the president NOT to assist the attack on a US warship by Israel - for over an hour , even when teh ship was identified by ISrael - they carried on.

The attack lasted over 4 hours and 24 U.S. Sailors were killed, including some in life rafts machine gunned down by Israeli Gun Boats. Unmarked French Mirages of a type only sold to Israel had started the attack by strafing the decks of the Liberty with Napalm and Phosphorous Bombs and Machine Gun Fire.

Lyndon B. Johnson’s exact words to his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs sitting in the Oval Office alongside him relayed through the open com to the Admiral of the U.S.S. Liberty’s supporting Carrier Fleet were “I want that G-d D-mned ship at the bottom of the ocean”

In all fairness American Fighter Pilots were threatened with Court Martial if they did not stand down, so though were the Israeli Fighter Pilots who implored their own commanders for permission to stand down and were likewise threatened with Court Martial and Execution if they did not continue the attack.

I am very adamant that Israel is a pariah nation and a danger to both our country and the world at large, but I think it’s important to not loose sight of that the Zionist agenda that drives Israeli and corrupted American politics is not indicative of the Jews who often are called upon to carry out these inhuman attacks in places like Gaza and Lebanon and against the U.S.S. Liberty. Citizens of Israel are compelled to mandatory Military Service and subjected to the rigorous discipline and codes of conduct that very often do make the Jewish soldier object conscientiously albeit futilely to Zionist war policies.

The Israeli citizens are bombarded with as much if not more propaganda as we are here in the United States.

Simply put the Zionism behind this aggressive and barbaric thinking that so discounts human life is as rampant within Israeli Government as it is within our own here in the United States and likely within the United Kingdom as well.

Many Evangelical Christians are likewise now practicing a pseudo form of watered down Zionism seeking to validate their scriptures in the process and as a means to voice frustration that despite the inroads they have made towards erosion of Separation of Church and State they still have not managed to legislate strict Christian Morality into law.

Zionism is the problem feeding the escalating rounds of human rights violations and discarded and broken treaties that has steadily been turning not just Israel into a Pariah Terrorist Nation, but the United States and United Kingdom as well.

That the weaker, poorer, and poorer armed nations and peoples subjected to this tyranny have to resort to unconventional warfare guerilla tactics and terror inspired attacks to seek political awareness versus military hegemony is not a threat to Israel, the United Kingdom or the United States but a desperate call in the often only noticeable way that those conscientious citizens and citizen soldiers can make a self determination to reign in their governments and political parties and force a true and equitable peace after wresting control from the corrupt mechanisms of fascism and tyranny all three of our governments have now too long been.

Israel, the United States, and the United Kingdom’s governments are not going to stop these attacks and wars, only their citizenry can.

i would also like to add afew incidents in 2006 which may show a certains countries disregard to anyone else


3rd octobert 2006 an IAF fighter flew within 2 miles of the french frigate corbet , initiating a SAM procedure and ignored radio calls


24th october 2006, 6 IAF F-16s open fired on the German navy frigate in international waters - whilst the shots wern`t aimed at them (apparantly) yet another diplomatic incedent occured.

and finally

www.independent.co.uk...

israel directly attacked UN peacekeepers

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Instead of looking at arms on both sides, it is time for a change.

How about there is no past

Everything starts new ,NOW.

Now, if Hamas attacks, they get punished.
Now, if Israel attacks, they get punished.

Both sides would be held up to the same rules.

NO, it was just a rocket-Nothing or punishment.
NO, we only went after a know Hamas terrorist-Nothing or punishment.

Either side would be punished the SECOND they break the peace-by any manner.

Sadly, I know this won't happen, but it is a real world solution for peace.

Once there is peace, both sides could enjoy the normal life that comes with peace.

It's good that you recognize this won't happen, you're hopeful, but not naive.

A few groups have been started in an attempt to be just this, but they always end up being weighed down by bureaucracy, and the countries participating wind up not wanting to spend the money or resources to fulfill the objectives.

It would be lovely if we had a military organization that would plant itself right in the middle between both sides, and let both side know, the first shot from either side will be dealt with aggressively.
Once a ceasefire is established, they could act as a gate for civilian transit to pass through safely.

Unfortunately, nobody has the guts to stand in the middle, the resources to contribute, nor the unbiased thinking necessary to remain neutral.

I was writing a book (I should really get back to it) about a hypothetical organization of this type... it didn't rely on other nations to supplement it... but that's for another thread.



What I would give to be able to shield off Gaza strip, open a sea passage out of the control of Israel, and begin sending aid via ship, and use the unloaded ships to ferry civilians out to be processed as refugees.

It would be ironic if we ended up having to allocate land to re-locate the Palestinians. Same thing that we did for the Jews.
Why oh why did they think planting the Jews in the Middle East would be a good idea?

Bringing up the USS Liberty incident that occurred in 1967, which was a situation of mistaken identity, and is an incident that has never been repeated, is just more cheap shots by people who don't seem to care about the truth.

Even the wikipedia source states that the claims made are not backed up by evidence, and asks for more contributors. Wiki is not a legitimate source, and everyone knows this.

Bring this up has nothing to do with the topic, it is just spreading disinformation, and completely destroys the credibilty of those who pull these types of dirty tricks out of the bag.

Here is a legitimate source on the Liberty incident.

news.bbc.co.uk...

"Many thousands of documents related to the Liberty have been declassified and in none of these documents will you find a scintilla of evidence to suggest any of these conspiracy theories are true," he says.

Originally posted by poet1b
Bringing up the USS Liberty incident that occurred in 1967, which was a situation of mistaken identity, and is an incident that has never been repeated, is just more cheap shots by people who don't seem to care about the truth.

Cheap shots? Well since you want the truth here it is.
Wow how ironic.All broken by Israel.


salemshalom.blogspot.com...

Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.
General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948


"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."





Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967


Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."





Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979


"Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."





Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974


Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."





Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002


Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."




More UN Resolutions on Israel, 1955-1992



Resolution 106: condemns Israel for Gaza raid.

Resolution 111: condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people.

Resolution 127: recommends Israel suspend its no-man's zone' in Jerusalem.

Resolution 162: urges Israel to comply with UN decisions.

Resolution 171: determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria.

Resolution 228: censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control.

Resolution 237: urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees.

Resolution 248: condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan.

Resolution 250: calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem.

Resolution 251: deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250.

Resolution 252: declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital.

Resolution 256: condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation.

Resolution 259: deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation.

Resolution 262: condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport.

Resolution 265: condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan.

Resolution 267: censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem.

Resolution 270: condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon.

Resolution 271: condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem.

Resolution 279: demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 280: condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 285: demands immediate Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

Resolution 298: deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem.

Resolution 313: demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 316: condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.

Resolution 317: deplores Israel's refusal to release.

Resolution 332: condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 337: condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.

Resolution 347: condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Resolution 425: calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 427: calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Resolution 444: deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces.

Resolution 446: determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention

Resolution 450: calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.

Resolution 452: calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories.

Resolution 465: deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist its settlements program.

Resolution 467: strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon.

Resolution 468: calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return.

Resolution 469: strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians.

Resolution 471: expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Resolution 476: reiterates that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are null and void.

Resolution 478: censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its Basic Law.

Resolution 484: declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors.

Resolution 487: strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility.

Resolution 497: decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

is null and void and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.

Resolution 498: calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

Resolution 501: calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.

Resolution 509: demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon.

Resolution 515: demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in.

Resolution 517: censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 518: demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon.

Resolution 520: condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut.

Resolution 573: condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.

Resolution 587: takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw.

Resolution 592: strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops.

Resolution 605: strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.

Resolution 607: calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Resolution 608: deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians.

Resolution 636: deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.

Resolution 641: deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 672: condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

Resolution 673: deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.

Resolution 681: deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 694: deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

Resolution 726: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 799: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

[edit on 29-12-2008 by pepsi78]

reply to post by GamerGal


I would like to say I think you have been doing an excellent job on the thread. You have provided links to back up your claims, and made solid points, and those who have attacked you on this issue have done nothing but make you look better.

Egypt certainly should allow refugees from Gaza escape the violence into their country. There is no reason for them not to, except maybe the propaganda of blaming Israel for civilian deaths.

I think Israel should make an offer to allow the women and children to leave the area before the ground assault begins. Most likely a ground assault is to follow, the big problem would be to set up a workable means to allow the women and children to escape without the leaders of Hamas trying to sneak out with the women and children.

It is very sad that the people who provide Hamas with weapons don't also provide them with food and medicine, since they know that the weapons they provide will only make the lives of the people of Gaza more miserable. Once again, making the people of Gaza suffer works to spread the propaganda by the agents of disinformation. The people who support Hamas want the people of Gaza to suffer, because it gives them something to blame on Israel, but we know who the real villians are in this scenario.

reply to post by pepsi78


Gee, what resolution gives Hamas the right to bomb civilian targets in Israel? When you start killing people, you start losing rights. By the way, blogs don't count as legitimate sources anyway. It is just another opinion piece filled with cherry picked data.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by pepsi78

 

Gee, what resolution gives Hamas the right to bomb civilian targets in Israel? When you start killing people, you start losing rights. By the way, blogs don't count as legitimate sources anyway. It is just another opinion piece filled with cherry picked data.

I think you are giving weaker and weaker answers, count the bodies and do the math.And just look at those violations above, they seem infinite plus there are many more, this is just a short list.
They ivaded and had confilcts with every country in the region, you name it.The hipocrite reijime in Israel acting as they all feeling sorry apearing on TV while hudreds die.If it were not for United States Israel would have it's share.Lately each time a UN resolution was about to pass the US came up with a veto blocking the voice of the world.
\

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Oh, so now you admit that you did insult me.

You do a great job of distorting the facts and jumping to amazing conclusions with no proof to back them up, but all you express is opinion.

Where do I come to my conclusions about Mohammad?

Here is the result of a quick google search.

www.bibleprobe.com...

As you will see below, Muhammad posed as an apostle of God. Yet his life is filled with lustfulness (12 marriages and sex with a child, slaves and concubines), rapes, warfare, conquests, and unmerciful butcheries

What on earth does this have to do with Israel attacking Palestine?

I've followed 53 pages of this thread, and time and time again this kind of nonsense is being thrown into the topic as if it actually carries any weight in the debate.

To ProtoplasmicTraveler: thank you for your unswerving, level headed and gentlemanly persistence in presenting the historical facts, post after post, which are just as persistently ignored by the pro-Israel camp in favor of immature rhetoric.

I have learned from your posts and your exemplary tolerance. Thank you.

The point here is that human beings are being subjected to conditions we wouldn't tolerate in our zoos, restricted, persecuted, controlled, discriminated against, by an oppressive regime practicing an illegal occupation and an apartheid system.

What mohammed did or didn't do 2000 years ago has NOTHING to do with that. What muslim extremists allegedly do in Africa has NOTHING to do with that.

The entire world community outside the US agrees that Israel is acting illegally, violating human rights, and needs to STOP.

Even Israel's own population is turning against it's government.

Not long to go now before this cancer will eat itself.

/rant

reply to post by RogerT


Israel didn't attack Palestine. Palestinians attacked them and Israel is counter attacking. Make sure you get it right.

reply to post by poet1b


a single pass then breaking off to identify the target can be `mistaken` - 4 hours of repeat aircraft and boat attacks , even when the Liberty was flying the star spangled banner - a 30 foot square star spangled banner in plain sight is not mistaken

the carrier commander being threatened by the PRESIDENT not to assist a US warship under attack in international waters is not mistaken


the declasified reports of the attack where congress was up in arms is not mistaken

you choose to believe what you want to - but you insult the armed forces of the USA by your lies.

The term` pallywood` was first used by Richard Landes in the Jeruselem Post , with his close and personal `friend` Ruthie Blumm (lead reporter for said news paper)

so really who HAS the agenda posting in this thread

reply to post by poet1b

Bringing up the USS Liberty incident that occurred in 1967, which was a situation of mistaken identity, and is an incident that has never been repeated, is just more cheap shots by people who don't seem to care about the truth.

The video records of the attacks on the U.S.S. Liberty, and the unofficial testimonials of U.S. Sailors, Aviators, and Israeli Sailors and Aviators were divulged out of conscious at great risk as both governments threatened death or imprisonment to survivors and participants who spoke.

There was no mistaken identity where a U.S. Naval ship could be strafed and bombarded torpedoed and have its sailors murdered in escaping life rafts for four long hours.

Many of us are here Sir to deny ignorance not propagate it. If we clung to official sanitized versions of events for propaganda and control purposes we would not be searching for and sharing far more unbiased sources of information looking to arrive at the deeper truths that our governments feel we have no sufficient vested stake in that warrants us being entirely privy too.

In fascist, communist and dictatorial states that form of governmental thinking is deemed appropriate. In democracies such as the United States of America it is not just inappropriate but treasonous and criminal in many ways.

Clearly Sir, the United States has seen better days. Our manufacturing base of wealth has been transferred off shore in its near entirety. Our core middle class that represents those average citizens most vocal by necessity to ensure effective democratic government are being wiped out and marginalized in that process. Our financial markets have clearly been manipulated in massively fraudulent ways as our banks and investment houses teeter on bankruptcy with no means available to the citizens of this country to generate wealth through manufacturing available to pay off our staggering domestic and foreign debt. We are involved laboriously in long drawn out wars against militarily inferior nations that fell quickly to our superior arms and battle doctrines yet bog us down at an insanely staggering cost of life and wealth, while a handful of International corporations make a fortune off of infrastructure improvements in no-bid contracts, rife with embezzlement, waste and fraud. Our current national debt equates to every man woman and child in this country owing the Treasury approximately 175,000 dollars, and the Treasury owing all that money to foreign nations and investors. Our elected representatives are completely indifferent to this as they line their pockets and enhance their political stature through the malfeasance, bribery, threats, and blackmail of special interest groups that have completely rendered our democracy into a fascist dictatorship.

If you find some advantage in clinging to the official propaganda that somehow enables you to think that the resilient people of this nation who forged it out of wilderness, innovated and invented technological works of wonder, bravely fought and won two world wars and once enjoyed the esteem and respect the world over for a higher morality and fairness, have fallen by happenstance or unlucky circumstances into this abyss, all I can say is Sir, you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

You have yet to divulge one smidgen of reason, factual information or direction in this thread that might allow those seeking a greater range of knowledge towards greater solutions and lasting peace to achieve those goals, as you lobby long and hard to simply stamp out the 1.8 billion Muslims of this world you evidence an abundant wealth of distaste for. Your opinions are valid as opinions but disproving historical events requires more than opinion that simply denies the facts and events surrounding them.

It requires a more thorough documentation and rendering than those whose opinions you do not agree with. The onus is on you to disprove. Denounce and decry all you want, sway minds with documents, evidence, names dates and places if you want to shape or change more studied and learned, and reasoned opinions.

This is a situation reaching critical mass and no amount of denial or personal attempts at damage control are going to keep the truth of things from being known and the consequences of truth and its cause and effect reactions from being felt.

You have yet to prove a point or put forth a valid argument in my humble opinion.

You might want to do a broader range of deeper research into what you are sharing as many responding to this thread have. There are some very impressive and knowledgeable people on this thread sharing some very notable facts and information that go far beyond the lets stamp out Muslims everywhere, and pretend Israel can never do wrong a few our touting instead.

I doubt you’re going to appeal to the former, and the latter isn’t likely to be on a forum looking for additional answers since they are happy to be in the lowest possible common denominator and need no appeals to enjoin those ranks.

You might learn something though that which gives you a greater understanding if you did a bit of research that might actually not just discredit someone’s learned opinion, but share with them a deeper or greater truth or understanding, to enhance their opinion and better them.