Which cell phones DONT have builtin GPS tracking?

According to the website below, in 2005 the FCC declared that 95% of cell phones in the us require GPS tracking. So does anyone have the foggiest about that 5%?

www.answerbag.com...

Most don't have GPS inbuilt, they don't track you with GPS they track you by triangulating your position via 3 or more Mobile Telephone masts and there ain't much you can do about it apart from go into areas where there are less masts (cells?) as they would then give a lower resolution location.

[edit]
Here's a mock up of how it kinda works



[edit on 2/12/2008 by spitefulgod]

they do not need GPS to find your exact position. They just need you to keep your phone on, then the position can be calculated using the position of 2 nearby antenas . ( you do not even need 3 hehe ). So if you want to hide your location, turn your mobile off (make sure it is really off )

[edit on 2-12-2008 by sty]

Originally posted by sty
they do not need GPS to find your exact position. They just need you to keep your phone on, then the position can be calculated using the position of 2 nearby antenas . ( you do not even need 3 hehe ). So if you want to hide your location, turn your mobile off (make sure it is really off )

[edit on 2-12-2008 by sty]

Yes but with the positioning active, they don't even need to triangulate.
They can get your immediate position.
I can turn positioning off on mine, many you can turn it on or off using a security code thing.
But its says emergency or other services may still be active.
Emergency ok but what is these other services?

I don't think my Heinz 57 Megapix series has GPS built in.



I think it would be quite difficult to buy a phone now in the last few weeks of 2008 that didn't have GPS. As another poster has pointed out, it's irrelevant anyway, if 'they' want to find you through a mobile phone, 'they' will do. Your best bet is not to have communications reliant on a mobile phone. We managed quite easily not so long ago.

By the way, the accuracy of this technology is far higher than usually told. I believe it's accurate to a couple of houses.

depends on the mast density but in a city it's to within a few meters, in rural areas it can be up to a couple of miles.

Good points everyone.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
depends on the mast density but in a city it's to within a few meters, in rural areas it can be up to a couple of miles.

That's one reason I can see 'them' being compelled to force GPS. Someone said 'they' can find is regardless if they want, but I think the point of GPS is so that software A.I. can easily create or maintain living 'personal maps' of our every movement, whereas doing the whole triangulation method requires calculations and is subject to inefficienies such as resolution. GPS doesn't have that problem.

Take the example of "personal maps" explained by NSF bigshot Mihail Roco. In his book, "Progress in Convergence", he supports the use of raw GPS data in tracking peoples personal daily movements. He explains:

"over the last years, estimating a person’s activities has gained increased interest in the artificial intelligence, robotics, and ubiquitous computing communities."

He goes on:

"the concept of a personal map, which is customized based on an individual’s behavior. A personal map includes personally significant places, such as home, a workplace, shopping centers, and meeting places and personally significant routes (i.e., the paths and transportation modes, such as foot, car, or bus, that the person usually uses to travel from place to place). In contrast with general maps, a personal map is customized and primarily useful for a given person. Because of the customization, it is well suited for recognizing an individual’s behavior and offering detailed personalized help."

It goes on to highlight the use of AI powered personal maps to discriminate a targets activities, predict future movements and transportation modes and infer when the target has broken their ordinary routine. The technology he described already exists. See the full paper on this key point:
www.nyas.org...
(download the excerpt)


Disabling the GPS doesn't mean they can't still use it any more than turning your phone off can stop the Fed's from listening to your micropone or probably nowadays even peer over your camera (you have to remove the battery and unplug the phone). Even Fox News admitted that a couple-few years back:


What's more, DARPA is actually working on new devices that can hunt and track virtually ANY type of signal, in a way that reminds me of Total Recall.

So I get that by turning the phone on one could be 'found' one way or another, but I'm just trying to figure out how to not make it so easy for them to create "personal maps" of my every move.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

To the above post - great points made.

There is a wide difference in accuracy between GPS and triangulation. I know from using Googlemaps on my Blackberry in both modes. GPS gives roughly 3 meters, with triangulation I'm lucky if I get a few hundred.

I had to get a new phone a little over a year ago, when the display on my old one went completely out. I asked about GPS as I wasn't real keen on it myself. Here's what I was told, in a nutshell, from a mixture of salespeople and technicians:

Every cell phone manufactured today is required by Federal law to have built-in GPS for tracking purposes. When a phone is activated (as in a call is made to it or from it), the phone makes contact with the closest tower(s). In optimum conditions, three towers are contacted, as mentioned above, but as long as one tower of sufficient strength is available, the phone will work (will just drop the call easier if less than the optimum three are used). GPS is there to be used if the towers cannot triangulate position, like a back-up.

The cell phone company can use their computers to locate you within a few feet should they need/want. However, the GPS technology is expensive, and therefore they normally do not track you to that degree (that's their story, anyway). The triangulation method is used in order to keep calls connected while moving anyway, and it can be accessed for almost no cost to the company. However, when I asked under what circumstances I could be tracked using GPS, I was told something to the effect of "in an emergency, or as permitted or required by law".

Also, the GPS can be triggered remotely even when the phone is off. Some phones now have high-capacity capacitors built in to keep the GPS functioning for a while even when the battery is out of the unit. I haven't been able to get an answer on how long these emergency circuits are good for, but I know for a fact that capacitors of 5 Farads are now available. That's almost like a coin cell, and considering GPS standby would draw current in the microamps, it could conceivably last for some time.

In short, beware the cell phone. It can spy on you without even having the battery inside.

TheRedneck

Thanks for the thread. The whole cell phone issue is something I've been following for some time now.
Some of our more popular TV shows have been subliminally using the technology to catch "the bad guy" for so long that now when you see an episode where they're trying to find somebody you automatically expect that they will track them down with their cell phones.
Then you pick up your own phone and start blathering away about Aunt Mary's broken hip without comprehending that they can track you too, not just "bad guys".
Ah, but then the issue that comes up is, "Darn, he's using one of those disposable phones, we'll never find him now".
Now, let's say you are a "bad guy, using a disposable phone". Can't track him or listen in on his calls, right?. Wrong. If you are a "person of interest" already but the PTB don't have enough info to take you down, or are looking for higher ups that you are involved with, the procedure is extremely simple. If you are already under some sort of surveillance, but they don't want to expend huge amounts of time physically following you around, all they have to do is catch you making or receiving a call and pick up the signal, which is basically a radio transmission, with equipment that is pretty much available at your local Radio Shack.
They now have the number of your phone and you are screwed. They will know where you are and listen in on your calls at their leisure.
Because of the type of work I did I was on call 24/7 for over 20 years. When cell phones came out I was required to carry one so I could be immediately contacted to respond to one type of "emergency" or other. When I retired the first thing I got rid of was my cell phone. You want me, call me at home, and even then I let the answering machine take a message. I have absolutely no desire to be "followed" around by anybody, especially the police.
My new favorite pastime is enjoying the look on people's faces when they ask me for my cell number and I tell them that I don't have one. I mean everybody has a cell phone!
Throw 'em away. You really don't need them as much as you think you do.

I remember that back in the 90s Russia managed to track Dudaev ( a Cecenian military leader) while he was talking on the phone , and sent a missle right trough his window! (sure that killed him). The only way to track him was because he used the phone!

For a fee, ANYONE can track a cell phone here.

indeed, there is no escape.

That is a new thread within itself......HOLY POOP!

reply to post by TheRedneck


How in the world can they fit a 5 farad capacitor inside a cell phone? Do you know how big those are? I do not believe that if you pull the battery out the phone would send any kind of signal. I need to get a radio frequency meter and I'll test it myself.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Found 2 more ATS threads on this here: www.abovetopsecret.com... and here www.abovetopsecret.com...

Google Earth can track almost anyone who has a cell phone that is turned on with Google Latitude
You all probably knew about this but I am just finding out! I don't carry a cell phone because of the microwaves...and the people who constantly bother me for no good reason. Better off without one. My free time stays free. lol

if you are worried about someone finding your location via cell phone, i think you may have bigger problems than which phone you should go with lol... but seriously, i just took a glimpse over the thread and it seems you have all the info you need. i will tell you though, without getting into too much detail, that first of all if you dont want a phone that can be tracked by pinpoint location (GPS) thats going to be any phone that doesnt include an optional data plan... unlike GPS units like tom tom and garmin cell phones are REQUIRED by the federal government to be taxed, thus no phone company will sell you a phone capable of GPS positioning without making their money back... you may not PAY for the plan but it is an option... any phone without the option is safe, but these days its near impossible to find one... also i will tell you that RIM (blackberry) devices are the only tried and true handsets that when you set the GPS location option to off (for the EMS 911) it will actually disable the GPS sender/receiver in the set. in other words if you have an iphone and your location setting is off, yeah, they can still see you. i have heard some of the new android sets are the same but i haven't had time to personally test them like i have the RIM devices. as far as triangulation, there are tricks you can use to throw whoever is looking for you off the trail, but there is no way to actually use your phone and not be seen on the grid, unless its a satellite phone, and thats a whole other story...

There are two sorts of GPS in mobile phones, traditional GPS recievers and APGS (assisted), thats when the phone can't get a traditional GPS signal (buildings blocking etc) so it uses masts to narrow down your location. It is the assisted sort they use to track your location. I use an older phone that doesn't use either, SE K800i, and it doesn't half take some cracking photos However, TPB could still calculate my position using it.

In some cases GPS in cell phones could be used to get revenge or get rid of someone.

You can get used cell phones from thrift store.
And they do not have to be authorized.(payed for cell phone service) to use 911 that means no one knows who has the cell phone.

Take one of these and go to the back wall of someone you don't like/criminals home and call 911.
Tell the cops you have been kidnapped and are being held. and the house address.

The cops will see that the call is coming from that address.

Then pull the battery.

The cops will trace the call to that address and send the SWAT team to bust the door in and search the place real good.

If these people are drug dealers, users, or neighborhood thieves that cops may see evidence of the criminal activity and bust them or If not the criminal may feel so paranoid they move to a new neighborhood.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
in 2005 the FCC declared that 95% of cell phones in the us require GPS tracking.

If it was true they would have posted a link to the FCC site where they stated that!