Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

www.telegraph.co.uk

The unnamed boy allegedly shot dead his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, their lodger, at the family home in St Johns, Arizona, with a .22 rifle as they were coming home from work at a local power plant.

The double murder on Nov 5 shocked the US, with investigators initially struggling to find any motive.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Earlier in the month, this story appeared at ATS here.

Obviously, things like gun safety and responsibility were big issues for a lot of posters. However, it looks like child discipline was the real crux of the matter. Was the the boy disciplined too much? Perhaps not enough? What does the fact that the boy kept a record of his being slapped say?

www.telegraph.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Very sad.
Why does a little kid have un monitored access to a firearm?
I think some people don't deserve to have children.
And funnily enough nature works that out.
But nature isn't perfect.

That kid was just doing what any man would do.

It's a shame what abuse does to children, and I am glad this child was able to end his.

It is just unfortunate he will now be shipped off to a government RapeRoom, (juvie) where he will be abused and molested until he either dies or gets let go.

This kid should be treated as a victim, nothing else.

He even documented the abuse as best he could until he couldn't take it anymore - then he excercised his 2nd amendment right and he took up arms against his attackers, whom he slew in self-defense. God bless him. If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance.

I hope he gets a nice family. He deserves one.





[edit on 30-11-2008 by Canadianduder]

His grandparents saw it coming? And no one did anything??

An 8 year old child is still a child, no matter what they have done. At that age, even with years of abuse, they have only what they have been taught as the bedrock to base their systems of right and wrong on.

You kick a dog enough, it'll bite you.

reply to post by azurecara


Figures some idiot Canadian, would think to praise / reward someone would killed two people. His fathers' friend must of had that bullet coming for being too... Oh thats right back, in the real world, the American Justice System punishes people for double pre-mediated murder. Watch out for bears.

This is the new generation of children. Good on him! Look out, those who hold to the old ways.

We should all be as patient as he was, and as methodical, in exacting justice. Even as an eight-year-old, he knew there would be no justice otherwise.

What if he had gone to the authorities with his log of punishments? Would they have done anything? What if he had broken mentally? He didn't. He kept his sanity. If someone hit me a thousand times when I was under their care, I think I would be justified to take action to save myself. That child has only been alive for about 3000 days at the age of eight.

Let's look at the converse. We've recently heard about the woman in Austria whose father imprisoned her in his basement and fathered numerous children with her. Then there was the similar case in the UK of the two daughters with the equally "generous" father. Those women did nothing to manage their fates. Were they powerless to do so? In modern society, yes. You have to wait until someone in authority recognises your plight and comes to rescue you. Only those with authority have the right to take action. So who is right?

That kid understands balance better than most judges. I'd put him in philosophy classes and see what comes out. Sounds like a natural to me.

Oh come on! 1000 "smacks"? What constitutes a smack? A clip round the ear or round the arse, or beating him with a belt or table leg? If it's the former, than that is hardly worth killing your father (let alone the lodger) over is it? Regardless of his reasoning, the little turd should be punished for killing the lodger at least.

Stop making excuses until the facts come out. It quite clearly is pre-meditated murder.


Canadianduder, why did you feel the need to say "If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance". One could say that if this was England, then the father and his friend would still be alive and the child could call Social Services.

Is it not frightening that in a country awash with weapons that the child felt he had the right to kill someone because he was disciplined, rather than call the Authorities like a civilised person?

reply to post by stumason


Hah! the authorities?

The same authorities that visited Baby P sixty times?

Perhaps he should have went to the doctor - 8 year-old children make appointments to do that all the time Hopefully the doctor wont be the kind Baby P visited.

Your faith in the Corrupt Government is spectacular. Had he called 911 he would likely have been tasered, put in juvie, or beat even worse by his owners.

I LOL at your child-like trust in 'authorities'

I LOL at how you think he could have used the bureaucracy to stop the abuse

*Children are FIVE times more likely to die in State custody. Not that you care - I'm sure you could even rationalize this in some twisted way.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Canadianduder]

reply to post by stumason


Please read your own signature block.

That boy knew what was enough for him. He also knew when. What gives others the right to decide? Just how much love are you displaying by doubting that child's awareness of his own circumstance? What right do we have to defer responsibility for our lives to others, other than it is what our society expects?

There's a big difference between punishment administered as a tool for growth and one administered out of sheer malice. Sometimes even a teenager could use a smack but it is my experience that people respond better to compassion, understanding and generosity than they do to suspicion and malevolence.

Your kind, stumason, are on your way out. There's a new age on its way in. Get ready, baby.

what a terrible tragedy......the child is innocent but I'll bet you that man loved his son.....Imagine what he's gonna feel when he matures and realizes what he's done? Killed his own father...the guilt trip alone that he'll inevitably have is punishment enough i think..oh yeah and canadian duder's right about foster care and all that. I've never talked to one person who grew up in foster care that enjoyed their childhood.

reply to post by Canadianduder


And I "LOL" at your attitude without having learned any facts about the case.

You have formed an opinion based on nothing, that is foolish.

If the abuse was that bad, then he had recourse to escape it. His own Grandparents for example, the Police, his teachers, his friends. But no, it would seem his initial reaction was to shoot his dad and his dad's friend. A violent reaction, in a violent society.

It remains to be seen just how bad the "abuse" was. A clip round the ear for not doing homework or a smacked arse for being a disobedient little turd is not abuse.

Personally, I would rather wait and see what evidence, if any, comes out about what exactly transpired before forming any cast-iron opinions.

EDIT: Baby P is a single bad example out of thousands of good examples. We could all find a bad apple if we look for one, but it is hardly proof of anything. is it? A couple of Social Workers and a doctor cocked up and a baby died.

Every day, hundreds of kids are well cared for by Social Services and the like, but they don't get a mention do they?

[edit on 30/11/08 by stumason]

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Your kind, stumason, are on your way out. There's a new age on its way in. Get ready, baby.

Elaborate, this should be amusing. I gather you have already made an assumption about me and "my kind" based on a single post. Wow, your insight is amazing. Impart your knowledge to me.....

Originally posted by stumason
Oh come on! 1000 "smacks"? What constitutes a smack? A clip round the ear or round the arse, or beating him with a belt or table leg? If it's the former, than that is hardly worth killing your father (let alone the lodger) over is it? Regardless of his reasoning, the little turd should be punished for killing the lodger at least.

Stop making excuses until the facts come out. It quite clearly is pre-meditated murder.

I'm finding some of the responses to this thread a tad worrying to say the least, in terms of how the child here is the 'victim' by default. As far as I'm aware the nature of the 'smacks' hasn't been actually stated and people are assuming the worst of the father.

Whilst the grandmother has gone on record as saying she thought the father was "too hard" on the boy, we don't know the background to this. In fairness, this boy could have been a little # with the father spanking him because he was at the end of his tether because he was unresponsive to any other kind of reproach.

But of course, for so many North Americans, the gun is the answer to everything. What's the Mark Twain quote? "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Id say that stumason is right. We have not been told about the smacking. The little boy could of been a bullying, theiving, swearing little perv, Or he could have been simply the target of abuse by his father.

If the thousand smacks he recieved was justified by inappropriate behaviour then he surely was not justified in his actions. On the other hand if he was purely a victim of a violent father it is a shame that he thought that was his only way out.

Either way he still has plenty of time to be evaluated by psycologists and get a second chance. He is after all just a young boy.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by stumason

 

Your kind, stumason, are on your way out. There's a new age on its way in. Get ready, baby.

It is best to ignore the ignorant.
Fight fire with fire?

Children shouldn't be playing with guns.
Children should know what guns are, should know how to use them, for when they become adults.
Every conceivable measure should be taken by responsible adults to stop children being in charge of a firearm by themselves.
Do we let children, drive cars?
How many people die per year, from automobile accidents?

As has been stated, the boy was only about 3000 days old.

That means that every third day he was hit by his owners. It doesn't matter how hard, every third day he was physically (and by default) emotionally assaulted by those who cared.

Now assuming he only kept count from the time he had learned to do so; he may have been assaulted more than 3 times per day on average, not once every three days - that is disgusting.

*I recommend that certain members use google to find out more about this case. Several articles have already been written, some containing more information than others.

This kid was entirely justified in preventing his further abuse. Any blow could hav been his last - if his father decided to hit him just a little bit harder. It is easy to kill a small child, this one was being tortured.

Luckily he had the presence of mind to defend himself. Most adults (battered wife syndrome anyone?) would just take the abuse until eventually the abuser goes to far and kills them. This child prevented that from happening to him.

He didn't rationalize it away like some of the members on this board have admittedly already done.

For those of you thinking that only a specific type of punishing smack sets off this type of behavior are totally naive. This is on par with psychological warfare. In fact, the best means to drive the psych off the deep end is often the most subtle of attacks. Think about things that just "drive you nuts". Some of these include dripping faucets, nearly inaudible chirps or hums, persistent skin tingling sensations. These sort of things drive strong minded, willful adults into discomfort or even frenzies. Imagine how this affects the mind of a child.

The fact that this child made the conscious choice to record these events means that long before, a choice was made with an end goal in sight. The outcome of this is like putting a fuse near a fire and hoping it does not get lit.

I am not saying that I am comfortable with this kid shooting them, only that I do understand how it came about. Even though CPS was warned about this, I dont think that they could have imagined what would happen when the limit was reached. They could have handled the situation better, such as parental guidance, but there are worse scenarios coming across their desk and I am sure this one got pushed to low priority.

I honestly think this kid is permanently damaged goods and this will probably not be the last time he is in the news.

Originally posted by Canadianduder

*I recommend that certain members use google to find out more about this case. Several articles have already been written, some containing more information than others.

I similarly recommend that certain members who think they have a more informed opinion on this story actually share that information rather than ask people to 'google for it'.

Given the rest of your post, I'd like to see some specifics about the nature of the spankings.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]

reply to post by stumason


Im with stumason on this one. We dont know much else about what happend here. This child could have been smacked for lots of reasons and even then how are we even supposed to define a smack?

There are some people on this thread that kinda need to stop, take a step back and have a look at the situation before going and trying to make "informed" opinions on a relativly short article.