I think missionaries should be outlawed

reply to post by AshleyD


I think he meant through history, it has spread through disease--which is fact.

But even the Black Death can’t compare to the devastation of the indigenous peoples of North and South America. Hit by wave after wave of multiple diseases to which they had utterly no resistance, they died by the millions. Disease spread from the paths of explorers and the sites of colonization like a stain from a drop of ink on a paper towel.

In fact, in North America, disease spread faster than European colonization. When Hernando de Soto explored the Mississippi Valley in the early 1500s he found large, thriving cities connected by networks of trade. By the time Rene-Robert de La Salle followed de Soto’s footsteps in the 1680s, those cities had evaporated.

www.learnnc.org...

That in itself is bad enough, but it's possible that some of the attacks were deliberate.

I know you don't like dragging up history for religious threads but I think it is aplicable here, because the OP's post seemed to be focusing on missionary work throughout time.

"Missonary" work has been used as a justification to commit horrible crimes upon native populations, which, IMO, is totally differenant than something like fighting between Protestants and Catholics.

It would be one thing to say "Okay, I have seen how you live and have shown you what I believe is a better way--I will leave you to God if you say no."

Instead the "Convert or Die" is used as an excuse to clear the land for the incoming nation and to absolutely devestate indigenous cultures.

These are lessons that we should remember so they don't happen again.

And if you read through pages 2 or 3, our biggest objection was people who break the laws of their destination country in order to do their work, especially when they bring children along.


But in all fairness, the spread of disease in modern times would probably work the other way around this time, as in, a missionarry contracting a "superbug" and hoping on a plane before their symptoms begin to show, and brinigng it back to their home country.

reply to post by asmeone2


Thanks for doing that research, Asmeone. Good job. Hope you didn't do that all just for me, though. I thought mentioning the historical aspect of it in my first post to this thread then switching over to how things are today would make it clear I am aware of what you mention and was being intellectually honest. Thanks, though.

And you bring up a good point- the 'reverse' is more probable in today world. So should we outlaw world travel? International business? Prohibit vacations abroad? Or is this pipe dream law only limited to one group?

[edit on 11/15/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


Certainly not, but it is a very legitimate reason that travelers and customs agents should be careful in implementing and following regulations--unlike most terror threats, that is a very real concern.

Some of these "super viruses" have very long incubation periods. What concerns me in that scenario is a missionarry group trying to sneak into isolated areas, meaning to help, and possibly bringing something back because they did not take proper precautions or returned to their home country and bringing back an epidemic.

Another reason why missionaries who try to circumvent local laws really get under my skin.

(Edit: Didn't catch that part of your first post, you'll have to excuse me.)

[edit on 15-11-2008 by asmeone2]

Originally posted by asmeone2
Some of these "super viruses" have very long incubation periods.

Exactly. We can't be too careful. Better outlaw international travel just to be safe. I'm sure my point is getting across.

What concerns me in that scenario is a missionarry group trying to sneak into isolated areas, meaning to help, and possibly bringing something back because they did not take proper precautions or returned to their home country and bringing back an epidemic.

A possible scenario that can't be denied. But if it's outlawed then that is still exactly what they will do... sneak. Better let them do it in the open and go through the regulations like everyone else.

Another reason why missionaries who try to circumvent local laws really get under my skin.

Well, anyone who tries to circumvent local laws get under my skin. However, in some cases it's justified in my opinion like in the instances they're smuggling victims of persecution out. If the 'local law' was to stone a rape victim, would the smuggling missionary be a criminal or a hero? Something to think about.

Here's an interesting read, focusing on South Korean (who'da thunk?) missionaries' competativeness:

Christianity is a fiercely competitive business in South Korea, with evangelists vying to attract followers by demonstrating ever more outlandish feats of holiness.

Sending missionaries in large numbers to the world's most violent trouble spots is seen as a surefire way of filling the churches with admiring disciples.

These days, dispatching missionaries to Afghanistan and Iraq, into the jaws of militant Islam, is the ultimate demonstration of Christian fervour.

And the larger the army of followers, of course, the larger the spiritual and financial rewards.

www.canada.com...

reply to post by AshleyD


There are ways of helping curb disease besides outlawing international travel.

Most countries have certain vaccination requirements for incoming visitors. While I am staunchly anti-vaccine I can see it in this situation: The idea here is to prevent that person from becoming a walking vector. It doesn't prevent everything but helps with some of the most common virulant diseases.

One is to quarentine people, preventively, if they are traveling from an area where communicable diseases are known to be an issue. Might be an inconvenience for that person, but it is justifiable, I think, considering what could happen otherwise.

Nowadays many countries employ machines that can check for fevers before people are allowed onto or off of airplanes. I realize that many people think that this is a draconian intrusion but it is an important step in preventing pandemics.

As for your example--yes they would have done a great thingin savign that person's life. I wouldn't condone that kind of law but realize that you are getting into an "iffy" area by suggesting that one nation has the right to change another's laws if they disagree with them.

And just to show that we don't have to exclusively bash Christians here, here's another example of bad missionary work. (but in a sort of inverse way)

Back in the 60s and 70s when younger people began to latch on to all things Indian, Asian, and Native American, but often showed little respect for the cultural lifestyle that went along with the religion. They wanted the best of all worlds, so to speak.

Then people began to travel to those countries and I think a little bit of research would show that these areas were substantially changed, by introducing newer western influences, creating a new souvenire-type export market, and, back home, encouraging a mixing of all religions as one saw fit rather than respecting each one as a complete system.

Originally posted by asmeone2
There are ways of helping curb disease besides outlawing international travel.

I hope you understand my point now. So really, it's not missionaries spreading diseases. There are measures that can be taken. Same ones used for international travel for leisure or business. There are vaccines. There are medications. There are tests. So, really, the 'missionaries spread diseases' is not even a valid reason that should be used to outlaw missionary work. It's not like missionaries are a petri dish for super bugs while businessmen and traveling honeymooners have built in immunities. The OP's reasoning was just 'missionary bashing,' if I wanted to be melodramatic. Although I won't go that far.

The point is, missionaries are not the only ones who travel, who have the potential to spread diseases, or who 'destroy cultures.' Missionaries actually do a heck of a lot of good for the sick, poor, and needy. The main issue seems to be they do all of their good work while offering theology. That is where the actual problem rests with many. Some just have to toss in a few other reasons that don't make any sense as a cover of some sort.

I wonder how many Evolutionists would be sharing their theories with people in other countries if they were the ones going to feed and help the poor and sick of the world .........

One thing I dislike about the missionary ordeal is that most of them have been Catholic ...and I hate the thought of all that Mary,Pope worshipping,praying to saints etc and all that blasphemous stuff being taught among so many new believers ....I saw something on Discovery Channel the other day about a whole country (cant remember where) that they nail themselves on a cross every Easter ...and they said the Catholics were the ones who dominated this area (They went in there first ) and that these peoples took Catholic dogma and mixed it with their own and of course became extremists ...which was why they do these things ...........
Sorry but I dont think these things bring any glory at all to the Lord ...
And those people have been very misled ..and need to hear the truth .
Because obviously they did not get the truth .....

And I would hate to think what headhunters may dream up to do once the Catholic religion gets through with teaching them about the Lord ...

Sorry Catholics ..but hey ....all of that extra nonbiblical stuff yall believe in is wrong ...and is IDOLATRY plain and simple ..
And to teach others to be IDOLATORS too is just plain wrong ..
The word says that ALL Idolators will have their place in the lake of fire too .

Or is it just the spread of Christianity that concerns you? Some consider that a disease in itself.

Originally posted by cruzion
I'd like to see all religions outlawed.

That's your right. However, my wish is to see people be free to worship as they choose without fear of reprisal by their governments. Maybe you're the type who likes handing over as much power to the government as possible but that's not for me.

[edit on 11/15/2008 by AshleyD]

I also consider christianity a disease. Its an afliction I don't want to see spread to innocents.
I have no idea how you projected the notion I wish to give powers to the government, just from me stating I wish to see all religions banned. Perhaps you are using some higher logic, or maybes it was a cryptic/mystic message. I have no idea. Whatever I think about government, it has nothing to do with me wishing religion gone. I would guess that, perhaps, as you're a christian, you see the church as some form of government? If I had the option, and my government had the will, I would gladly let them eradicate all religions - at least my taxes would be going towards something usefull. Probably the best thing the government could do for our future generations.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by cruzion]

Sorry Catholics ..but hey ....all of that extra nonbiblical stuff yall believe in is wrong ...and is IDOLATRY plain and simple ..
And to teach others to be IDOLATORS too is just plain wrong ..
The word says that ALL Idolators will have their place in the lake of fire too .

^
2 fine examples of why we need to get rid of religion right there.
It's just sanctioned ignorance and bigotry.
My indoctrinated fake belief system is better than your indoctrinated fake belief system...

Originally posted by cruzion
I also consider christianity a disease. Its an afliction I don't want to see spread to innocents.

That is your right that I will respect, regardless of how ignorant I believe it to be. I'm not the thought police.

I have no idea how you projected the notion I wish to give powers to the government, just from me stating I wish to see all religions banned.

My apologies. I'm sure the connection I was making could be difficult for some to follow. Who would have the power to ban/outlaw religion? Figure that out and there you go.

If I had th eoption, and my government had the will, I would gladly let them eradicate all religions

Not going to even bother.

Originally posted by cruzion
2 fine examples of why we need to get rid of religion right there.
It's just sanctioned ignorance and bigotry.
My indoctrinated fake belief system is better than your indoctrinated fake belief system...

One fine example of hypocrisy right there. My non belief is better than all of your beliefs.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Well, anyone who tries to circumvent local laws get under my skin. However, in some cases it's justified in my opinion like in the instances they're smuggling victims of persecution out. If the 'local law' was to stone a rape victim, would the smuggling missionary be a criminal or a hero? Something to think about.

A criminal, If they are disobeying a countries laws then they are a criminal. If they are there illegally then their presence alone is a crime. Let me ask you a less extreme and more likely hypothetical. Is it in your opinion justified to enter a country as a missionary illegally?

reply to post by Steve B


Good question. I cannot tell others what to do. Perhaps they feel their 'mission' supersedes the laws of foreign countries. But for me, I would choose only countries that were tolerant of missionaries and allowed their presence. It seems safer and more reasonable. There are a lot of people in this world who are in need and who are in countries that welcome missionaries. I see no reason to risk unneeded danger personally. But if others feel it is their calling, I'm not going to tell them otherwise. If I was going to join a missionary group or run a mission, I'd make sure it was in a missionary-friendly country. That would at least be my answer to your 'less extreme' requirement. I would suggest others follow that plan as well.

reply to post by AshleyD


I understand, from a personal safety point of view you wouldn't do it but you don't have a problem with it ethically.

Like if someone you know was going to do that you wouldn't go with them but you would support their choice. Is that right?

One fine example of hypocrisy right there. My non belief is better than all of your beliefs.

There is no hypocrisy here, especially as seeing how there is no such thing as a non-belief. Everybody has to believe in something. It's like morals; having no morals is a moral in and of itself. I believe that religion is the bane of a progressive society, and the most probable cause of the majority of the misery that afflicted this planet. The best thing religion ever did for us was show us what a god-send the enlightenment was!
Religion is a crass, self-perpetuating placebo, constructed from superstition, lies and fear. At it's best, it is a population controller, and at it's worst, it's own tv channel. It's nothing but fakery and lies - all of it. If anything was Satans work, it is religion.
Just my opinion, of course

reply to post by cruzion

Religion is a crass, self-perpetuating placebo, constructed from superstition, lies and fear.

I believe that's the best description I've ever heard for religion. Would you mind if I use that quote as my signature? I only wish I would have come up with it myself.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by Clark W. Griswold]

Originally posted by Steve B
Like if someone you know was going to do that you wouldn't go with them but you would support their choice. Is that right?

I'm aware of what you probably want to hear but I'll opt for honesty and say I'm not really sure. It's one of those things that would be none of my business. Not sure what else to tell you. The only thing I can think of is that, if it was someone I know and loved, I would beg them not to go. It wouldn't be my place to interfere with what they felt was their calling.

Your use of the word 'support' is what is tricky. Would I support it, as in, thinking it is a good idea? No. Would I support it as in being respectful in acknowledging it is their decision to take that risk? Yes.

reply to post by cruzion


That's cool. Just please be aware of your use of the terms 'I believe' and 'just my opinion.' Not everyone will believe what you do and will hold the same opinion. They should have that right respected as well. I don't care much for your opinions but I can respect your honesty.

[edit on 11/16/2008 by AshleyD]