Is Judeo-Christian/Muslim Mythology the root of societal ills?

Recently, I was watching (again) a program by one of my favorite educators/minds . . . Joseph Campbell. Although I've watched "The Power of Myth" many times, I was "struck" by a line that had, in the past, simply floated by like clouds . . . Campbell, to Bill Moyers, said that without a doubt, a culture's mythology is responsible for/evident in their values (paraphrasing).

I, then, started thinking about the world we find ourselves in today and the ills that plague our planet and society. What values are instilled in our culture through mythology? While Campbell opined that we see trouble today because mythology plays a diminished role in today's world, I think the "values" of society (western) have long since been formented. So, I look to the mythology that western/near-eastern culture was founded on . . . Judeo-Christian (and, going forward, this term will include Islam because they all share the same foundation).

So . . . where do I get off blaming Judeo-Christian mythology for all of our current world troubles and it's immoral value structure? Simple . . . there has been no other mythology more responsible for shaping current world views. With this being the case, you have to ask what values does Judeo-Christian mythology instill in it's followers. The followers will always talk about the positive values . . . which to them are all that matters, for they are the "in" group. However critical analysis shows many negatives, even theologians will find negative values extolled . . . quickly followed by evidence against these values or the caveat about the virtuous-ness of piety and obedience or "see . . . that's why you don't do that" moral lesson tag.

One can draw on many "personal" values, such as "The Sermon on the Mount" . . . (judge not, turn the other cheek, the meek) Unfortunately, society's challenges aren't due to or in spite of what little we have (truly) by way of Jesus' mouth. Beside that, Jesus was, without a doubt, Jewish. Not only Jewish, but a radical conservative Jew. He was speaking to Jews and his teachings were always meant for the Jews, regardless of Paul taking the message to the goyim. As such, his teachings and his actions MUST be accompanied and supported by/through the Old Testament. Jesus (and John's Rev) still exibit and subscribe to the chosen "in"-group think in their more dire and vindictive moments, as well.

Perhaps no other mythology seperates man from nature, as that which has shaped today's culture. YAHWEH, being a sky god, is the ultimate supressor of the femine and the natural world. Mosaic Law places more emphasis on obediance and alligence than spiritual or humanistic values. The Old Testament in rife with men doing horrible things in God's name or God doing horrible things to man over trival matters. Rape, incest, murder, genocide, greed, hatred, bigotry (can not be overstated how much), hypocrisy, judgement, death, and destruction. Some will argue that Jesus then came along and "righted the wrongs", but he still exhibits these behaviors when discussing ANY "out" group . . . all okay because not only is it okay with his old man . . . he is his old man? Meaning it's always rightgeous to exhibit immoral behavior, if it's in God's name and against the "out" group or "non-believers" or "sinners" . . . Revelation really gets back to some Old Testament judgement, death, and destruction.

For almost 2000 years now, western culture has been "raised" on the values of Judeo-Christian mythology. I can definitely see the parallel's between the lesson's taught literally, symbolically, directly and indirectly in the Bible and how our culture has progressed. Some may argue that the similarities are simply human nature and that is why the Bible rings of truth, but if the Romans had adopted the mythology of Siddhartha Guatama would our society/culture look the same? If YAHWEH was a earth godess, would we be so disconnected from the natural world, our women, our neighbors. Would we still value conquest and greed?

I'm extremely interested to hear what you all think about not only Campbell's premise, but how you agree or disagree with my views. However, if I can put one rule towards this thread . . . .

This is not meant as a religion/anti-religion-war against deities thread. Believer/Non-Believer . . . doesn't matter. Hopefully, this thread will remain a critical look at the values passed through the most dominant mythology of modern times and if they are/not responsible for this crazy mixed-up world, which we live in.

Very interesting thread.

Although I had not seen that work by Campbells, I am familiar with the idea that that culture has spread a rather damaging meme around the world. The idea was introduced to me by the book "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn.

en.wikipedia.org...

Ishmael is a 1992 novel by Daniel Quinn. It examines mythology, its effect on ethics, and how that relates to sustainability. Ishmael was awarded the $500,000 Turner Tomorrow Fellowship Award. The book is the first of a trilogy including The Story of B and My Ishmael.

If you have not read the book, based on what you have posted here I can assure you you will find the content of the book directly relevant to your interests.

It changed my opinion forever of "western culture" to realize that the culture we identify with (as a whole) is not our own.

Whether or not this can be "blamed" on the religion or not is up for debate. The religions from that area were certainly the vehicle for its spread, and their exclusiveness, or their insistence on "their way or hell" certainly ensured its success, but I personally wonder whether or not it was an inevitable step in the evolution of mind.

Certainly its effects seem rather detrimental at the present, and in the past 2000 years, but in the overall scope of human development to date, 2000 years is a mere blip. In the scope of consciousness (life) on Earth as a whole it is even more insignificant a time frame.

I think that there is a real possibility that this "one god, one way" mentality is an unpleasant awkward stage leading to a more universal view of consciousness and life. Taken to its natural conclusion, (which is what I think Jesus was making headway towards before his death) this meme should eventually lead us to an understanding that allows us to see every living thing, (and perhaps the non-living as well) as not only as important as us, but as "us."

When considered not as an "end" but rather as a step in the consciousness of the collective, we see that prior to this view everything was very fragmented, many Gods, many people, many places. This view moves it closer to a singular, One God, one "chosen" people, etc. Now even those not genetically that "chosen people" feel themselves to be "special" as well, of course, as the doctrine spreads out onto the many people in many places.

We also see the collecting of the many places and people into a singular, slowly, as technology advances along with this culture. We, thanks to space flight understand that this is ONE Earth, and many are also beginning to understand that we are, in fact, one people.

Although if you dogmatically protect the religious aspect of this movement, you can see how it can become destructive, if you separate out the religion as the only important element, you see a movement towards a truly "collective consciousness." You do not only see it in the religion, but in our understanding of the environment, technology, etc.

I would argue that this could very well be evolution in action, rather than "merely" a religion gone wild. If, as some of the other religions you mentioned have proposed everything is truly "one" this whole movement could reflect the collective "mind" the collective understanding of humans as a whole, struggling to grow into a truer understanding of that.

We will not know "in the long run" if this awkward stage was a tragedy or a blessing. Mostly because "we" will be long dead before it comes to fruition. I agree it is clearly uncomfortable now, and since its inception, but I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, and I think that we will eventually move towards a fuller understanding of our relationship with Earth, the Universe, and the Divine. I think these middle eastern religions have provided a vehicle to begin the spread of this greater understanding, but I have faith that as the evolution progresses they will be seen for what they are. A starting point. Not the culmination.

If this is indeed an evolutionary step towards a conscious understanding of oneness, we will surpass our ancestors in harmony. No matter how well they lived on the Earth, they did it out of necessity, they exploited what they could when they could get away with it, they were not sainted, and they also were not so harmonious with one another. If this process does not cause our extinction, I foresee that we will truly live harmoniously as we gain true awareness of what Oneness really means.



Edit to add,

Upon re-reading I wanted to clarify that I am not saying the religions will bring this harmony, but the concept of "oneness" that has hitchhiked along as polytheism made that move into monotheism.

[edit on 9-11-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by solomons path


Well you brought up a lot of good points,and Joesph Campbell is the guy who freed me from religion years and years ago


I think the problem with the Judeo/Christian /Muslim thing for the rest of humanity is the out of contextness of it. Back when the gods of the dessert were first worshiped they were local and the mythologies had a relationship to the tribes that originated them. The stories were about their ancestors deeds and customs that were culturally understood by the hearers of the myths. It 's the way they've been exported and elevated beyond the tribal law and origins tales that is really all they are,that is where the problem comes

Things like the Good Shepard ,and all the stories about women who have fertility issues ,and the visions they would see and the things they dreamed were all code for other things that were once much more specific and mundane. When they talked about the World they meant the world they knew the 30 mile radius most of them never left for their whole lives ,the animals that they saw and the surrounding tribes as they interacted with them . They had no concept of the WHOLE world or universe,Heaven was THE SKY.

Our problem is we have the religious superstitions of Bronze Age Bedouins
in a modern world the peices of the puzzle don't fit . Everyone knows something is wrong but no one will acknowledge the Elephant in the room

First off thanks for the reading suggestion, I'll definitely check it out.

I agree with you on many points, however, if our values are evolving towards oneness . . . should the Judeo-Christian influence be seen as a regression in this path?

The reason I feel this way is Buddhism and it's mythology pre-date Jesus by 500 years. The Jesus mythology can be very closely equated with that of Siddhartha Guatama (Buddha) . . . mentor, tempted three times while "wandering", message of love and compassion, et. al. Even the natural/goddess/earth religions, which even Jesus spoke against, proposed a message of oneness. However, with the influence of near-eastern mythology and in spite of our cultural/technological evolution, we seemed to "de-evolve" conciously. I just wonder how society can now counter balance 2000 years of damage without a MAJOR catalyst.

I agree, as well, with your ascertion that we are starting to see an awaking on this level, but it goes against the dominant mythology of the day . . . a mythology that has installed it's values globally and is gaining in numbers of followers (especially when including Islam).

But, I certainly like your scenario better!

reply to post by solomons path


Without Judaism there would be no society.

It was with the rise of Judaism and jewish laws that society flourished.

So no, it's not the cause of societal ills.

The human condition is. Humans are born violent and problematic.

It's just how it is. Look at the countries with no religion at all, it happens there too.

Originally posted by solomons path

I agree with you on many points, however, if our values are evolving towards oneness . . . should the Judeo-Christian influence be seen as a regression in this path? The reason I feel this way is Buddhism and it's mythology pre-date Jesus by 500 years.

Very good point, I agree that Buddhism is closer to what I am proposing is a "goal," but what I would offer is that "mystics," people who for whatever reason understand this "oneness," are ahead of the learning curve as a whole. Although the Buddha, Lao Tzu, Plato, Parmenides, the Vedic Sages, to name a few historical ones, seem to have had a jump start on this understanding, I would say that perhaps there needs to be a "critical mass" reached in understanding before the entire consciousness makes the leap.

In other words, perhaps they seeded the collective consciousness enough to get us from the many nearer to the "oneness" but not enough to flip the whole switch. And, technology and out understanding of the physical had yet to catch up. Perhaps, if we considered the entire planet as an "organism" it simply had not reached the stage in its "fetal development" where it could make the entire leap but the little brain cells were forming in clumps here and there so to speak.

To carry that analogy, perhaps now we are at a stage where the "brain" is nearly fully wired in terms of connecting neurons and whatnot, and it is about to be switched on. If you think about it, in mundane terms of communications technology, it is nearly fully wired and ready to roll.

Originally posted by solomons path
However, with the influence of near-eastern mythology and in spite of our cultural/technological evolution, we seemed to "de-evolve" conciously. I just wonder how society can now counter balance 2000 years of damage without a MAJOR catalyst.

I also do not think the major catalyst is out of order with what we see as the evolutionary process. It is not a smooth one when we look at it. Punctuated equilibrium. Mutations appear, build up in a population, an "event" occurs that selects for one variant over another. One variant does off, or becomes a minority in the population, the other thrives.

Although I agree that it looks sometimes as if we are devolving consciously, I would say do not only look at the backward trend from the Buddha, for instance, to Pat Robertson, look at the overall composition of the whole. Look at how even though many people do not really understand "oneness" they are at least exploring the concept. It is not completely foreign to many. It is certainly more widely spread now than at any other time.

Originally posted by solomons path
I agree, as well, with your ascertion that we are starting to see an awaking on this level, but it goes against the dominant mythology of the day . . . a mythology that has installed it's values globally and is gaining in numbers of followers (especially when including Islam).

True. And if we look at our time frame, and our individual lives as a marker it can look grim. But what if "we" are not who we think we are (discrete individuals) but rather the evolving consciousness of a much more long lived "thing" (the Earth, perhaps the Universe or God) and what if our idea of individual life is one of the things we are evolving out of? What could a "thing" billions of years old care if it took an extra thousand years past our lifetime to sputter forward again? And if we discussing this cannot release the idea of individuality for that longer view, isnt that indicative that the concept of oneness is not really ripe? Even in those who are reaching past the tribalistic portions of the middle eastern religions?

As for the numbers, I dont worry about those. Logically, spirituality aside, I see a large population crash in our near future. What I anticipate is an event, either natural or manmade, that causes a lot of death and that requires more cooperation than humanity has ever had to display to survive. I would guess that this event will have the effect of removing those elements that cannot move into greater cooperation, and make the cooperative more discriminating in whom they ally with. (Not discriminating in a negative way, but one which disallows the "free riders" to exploit the more cooperative as we see now.) I think that an event like this will be highly unpleasant, obviously, but, again, if you look to nature, utterly predictable.

Interestingly enough, there is also a correspondence to brain development here as well.

www.nimh.nih.gov...

In the first such longitudinal study of 145 children and adolescents, reported in l999, NIMH's Dr. Judith Rapoport and colleagues were surprised to discover a second wave of overproduction of gray matter, the thinking part of the brain—neurons and their branch-like extensions—just prior to puberty.1 Possibly related to the influence of surging sex hormones, this thickening peaks at around age 11 in girls, 12 in boys, after which the gray matter actually thins some.

Perhaps we are about to be pruned.

The idea that Christianity or any of the middle eastern religions will survive in their current form is impossible. They are not now in the form they originally were. Sometimes things do seem to get worse before they get better, but in the long run, I am not too concerned.

After all, if one really takes "oneness" as far as it goes, time is part of the illusion. Which means even my evolutionary theory is merely illusory. What would be closer to the truth is that all possibilities are existent "now" and so what could you possibly fear in that scenario? The "experiment" is failing, succeeding and everything in between in the split second we identify as "now" an infinite number of times in an infinite number of ways.

That currently doesnt change how we move through the game, or illusion, but when you really think about what Oneness, or non-duality would have to mean, and not just touch the surface of it, one thing becomes crystal clear. There is absolutely nothing to worry about.

reply to post by whiskeyswiller


I disagree. The Greeks and many others were doing absolutely fine technologically and culturally without Jewish law or culture.

And, just because this version of culture appeals to YOU doesnt mean it appeals to everyone. I would much rather be drinking and feasting and swinging swords around in Valhalla myself than partaking of the modern Christian view of streets of gold, harps and angels and all that hoohah.

There were neolithic cultures that worshiped a fertility religion in what is now Bulgaria and their culture had no war, or fortifications or weapons of war or mythology of war. They also didn't have an enslavement or suppression of women .The current dark antiverse ,< (word I just made up) we live in does not represent the only possible way humans can live or ever have in this world

The writings of ancient Sumeria tell a pretty clear story of a peaceful fertility culture of River valley farmers being overtaken by warring nomadic Patriarchies,and that is were the seeds of the patriarchal religions ,that most of us live under to this day were planted .

Buddhism has many wonderful things to teach us and I love it ,but it doesn't tell us how to free creation from this tyranny . Not disrespecting it at all but a better way of thinking about our whole existence is needed I fear. There should be a lot of lessons learned from Buddhism for sure but it's had 5 thousand years and things are only getting worse . So something is missing from it also,we need to take a next step,not saying I know what that is just that I know we can't go back or stay where we are

Originally posted by invisiblewoman

Buddhism has many wonderful things to teach us and I love it ,but it doesn't tell us how to free creation from this tyranny . Not disrespecting it at all but a better way of thinking about our whole existence is needed I fear. There should be a lot of lessons learned from Buddhism for sure but it's had 5 thousand years and things are only getting worse . So something is missing from it also,we need to take a next step,not saying I know what that is just that I know we can't go back or stay where we are

It actually does tell you what to do. Technically, they all do. Including the much maligned Christianity. Any tradition that has at its heart a "mystic" or someone who has had personal experience of the "oneness" does tell you what to do. Kind of.

Here is my fairy tale version of it. (They are all fairy tale versions actually, no one can tell the truth, it isnt speakable.)

There are problems in the telling that are inherent. First of all, ALL thought, and all things generated by thought, (speech, writing, pictures, etc) are by nature and unavoidably dualistic. The "vision" or experience, it isnt truly a vision, is non-dualistic. So, there will always be a "translation" error from experience to "intellect." This is true not only when the mystic tries to communicate the experience to "others" but when the mystic is thinking about to him/herself as well. So although the mystic KNOWS the truth, (gnosis) they do not necessarily "know" the truth, intellectually. As long as they are speaking, or thinking about it, they have to step away from "gnosis" to do so, and they themselves can lose the message. So far, with mind as it is now and has been to date, it is "unknowable" intellectually but not experientially. In its purest truest form that is.

Given all of that, what is to be "done" is actually both the most difficult and easiest thing imaginable.

Oneness Is. (But oneness is not the right word, it is more like the onemany, something that is both, and neither one nor many) I like the fractal as an "image." Its not perfect, but it lands you in the ballpark. All "strife" or evil, or darkeness, etc. whatever you like to think about it as, is merely Self that is not recognized as Self. All you have to "do" is recognize it as Self, and accept it. Thats the easy part.

The hard part is, you have to not "think" this, because many have. You have to KNOW this while in the illusion. KNOW it like Jesus used the term "believe" when he said if you believed with your whole heart and soul you could move mountains. He wasnt lying. I prefer KNOW because I recognize that we often dont really believe the things we think we believe and I dont like to be confusing.

Each one of us is like a facet on a huge diamond. (Metaphorically) we are reflecting God, or the Divine, or Oneness, and on the surface each appears slightly different because of the angle or perspective. As you move inward from the surface, however, we are the same. Literally. What appears to us as "outside of us" or external reality, are projections from within. What everyone tries to do and has always tried to do, is to change the world by messing with the projected images.

If "reality" is an image projected outwards, like your own image in a mirror, trying to change "other" be it a person or the climate, etc. is like trying to change your image in the mirror by rubbing the surface of the glass. You dont do that. Or yelling at the mirror telling it "Smile!" but oddly enough all you see is an angry yelling face. You have to realize, that everything you see, all other, all circumstances, all "evils" if you will are actually "in" you. You can never change them by rubbing the glass. You have to "find" that in your "Self" and not change it, which is a form of rejection, but accept it as Self, and it, being pulled back into the Divine, ceases to be "problematic."

Oneness isnt something you convince another of, or need to convince the world of. It is what one of us, any of us, needs to make real within ourselves while in the illusion. In essence, and this is why so many mythologies require a "savior" to "sacrifice themself," you need to "die" to your "self" your individuality to become the Self, or that which is neither individual nor multiple and both. But, like Douglas Adams said in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe,"

And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl sitting on her own in a small café in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything.

Sadly, however, before she could get to a phone to tell anyone about it, a terrible, stupid catastrophe occurred, and the idea was lost forever.

This is not her story.

Jesus "knew" intellectually (assuredly because of real experience, but once the mind gets hold of it, watch out) what needed to be done. He knew a "death" of himself must occur. However, he, and the rest of the collective consciousness was still pretty locked into "material reality." So of course he assumed it had to be a physical death. However, obviously, that didnt work. Because, it took external "material" reality as being really real, and in doing so, did not really transcend the illusion while in it.

We have "progressed" (even though linear time isnt meaningful either) a great deal since that time. We are much more conceptual, thanks to physics on one level and all the myriad "enlightenments" that have been occurring all along, though much much less famously than that one. We probably still arent ready to completely flip the switch, thats as far as I can figure we have gotten, but there may very well be more. However it is the next thing we have to do. That just leaves doing it. Or "not doing it" as "doing" is really kind of beside the point. Language makes it such a mess.

But, there it is. All you need to do to fix this mess is to "die" to your "self" as an individual, and realize, (make real) the Divine consciousness, and when you do, all that is "negative" or "dark" and feels alone and outside of the Divine becomes unified again and all is well in the Self. Since everything is then YOU, you are the creator and anything can happen.

Mind you all of this has been filtered through my own mind, and is of course very likely error filled as well.

I think the mystic message, if you will, has been around for a long time. It is our minds that seem to be changing/evolving to allow us to understand it more completely. In my opinion, not even the mystics understood it enough to manifest or real-ize it. Of course I dont either, but someone will. Someday. And, in oneness, what does it matter when and who? In the meanwhile, the principles outlined above, can be used to manifest modest changes in the world. Even if all you can muster is to recognize your Self in the mad person sitting next to you on the bus, what you can recognize as Self, and accept unconditionally from within (which is what "Love" means,) changes. On whatever level.

I know that it will sound a little like an interrogation, but i think this is a best way to represent my point:
1) China has no social illnesses? Even before communist takeover?
2) How will you compare (according to Buddhism that is "much closer to goal") social structure of Spanish society in 1500s and that of Incas?
3) What part of that ill tradition was in the mind of Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan , Caesar, Assyrian conquerors, Egyptian conquerors and numerous other who (together with their people) committed the same atrocities before rise of Judeo/Christian/Muslim religions?
4) Is Nitshe guilty of crimes committed by Nazis or Nazis them-self? Is Karl Marx guilty for crimes committed by Communists or Communists them-self?
5) How can you miss out that the common thing is that all above, regardless of faith, were Human?
Human behavior is the guilty one. You can hide it behind anything - from Judean tradition fault to Aztec blood-sacrificing. But it was done by people. The only way to stop it is to be aware that we can do ugly stuff. We, not comfortable "them" that frees us from any responsibility to our actions. I am sure that if Marx could see millions of dead due to his ideas he would not have not blamed the ills of society on "them" capitalists/oppressing classes.
P.S
As far as i know , Japanese Samurai class was under heavy influence of Buddhism. So the social system in Japan was perfect then? How did it differ from European feudalism?
Edit - grammar and fpelling

[edit on 10-11-2008 by ZeroKnowledge]

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
I know that it will sound a little like an interrogation, but i think this is a best way to represent my point:

I dont think interrogation is a bad way to question. One thing I would take note of at the outset is I am recognizing, in my first two points, that humans ARE part of the problem. No question.

I am also recognizing that the "prophets" or "Mystics" on the cutting edge of the evolutions of consciousness itself, are NOT representative of the whole. They are not representative of the mass of their "followers" (who I would argue are not really following their doctrine, but the doctrine as filtered through the collective human consciousness.)

And, I would argue that even the mystics themselves are not able to fully intellectually understand what they have experienced "mystically" or "prophetically.' That, coupled with the fact that non-dualist experience isnt able to be described by dualistic means withtout error, (language, etc.) means that no matter how true the mystic vision, or how clever the mystic or prophet is at trying to circumvent the language problem, every mystic message is imperfectly held out to the "uninitiated." And, to the mystic themselves when they "think" about their own experience.

What my answer to the OP is, is that we should set aside the outward appearance of these traditions, forget our subjective view of their "goodness or badness" and consider less what they seem to be doing on the outside, but look at how the acceptance and understanding of the masses reflects a greater, growing understanding of the concept of Oneness. (For lack of a better word.)

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Human behavior is the guilty one. You can hide it behind anything - from Judean tradition fault to Aztec blood-sacrificing. But it was done by people. The only way to stop it is to be aware that we can do ugly stuff. We, not comfortable "them" that frees us from any responsibility to our actions.

I would say that human behavior is a symptom of, or representative of, human understanding. I am with Socrates (via Plato) that no man does evil willingly. I believe it is ignorance of "What Is" and "Self" and "Oneness," which are mere inadequate words, that causes us to "sin" if you will, (And sin translates to "mistake," or "missing the mark" rather than some moral thing)

If you talk to an infant about running, swimming, etc., and demonstrate it to them, and then say, "now you do it." That child will wobble to its knees, perhaps pull itself to its feet and promptly fall on its butt. What I am arguing is that we need to consider the development of human consciousness. (which is a specialized subset of all consciousness) If it is not developed to a certain degree, no matter what "truths" are thrown at it, and they can be pretty darn truthful, the collective "mind" can only use what it is developed to use.

I AM arguing that "we" are responsible, not "them." But I am also arguing that "we" are "them" in a real way that is as yet unreal to the collective understanding. Jesus, the Buddha, they were all trying to point us towards this understanding. Jesus with all his, "do unto other as you would have done to you" a big hint, and "love thy neighbor as thyself" another big hint, and "judge not, lest you too be judged." All different ways, in that cultural context, to say "you and other are one." I would also argue that even while pointing us towards this understanding, the mystics themselves remained trapped in misunderstanding. The Buddha for instance had to be persuaded that women could be monks. Hardly a convincing demonstration that he fully understood "non-duality." Jesus sacrificed his physical form, while holding on to his individuality conceptually. Again, not a demonstration of non-duality. The mystic experience is what it is. It is the same no matter who has it, in whatever time or cultural context. However, the mind of the mystic and the collective mind are going to shape the way that mystic experience is translated by the mystic and into the broader collective. The experience is always the "truth" but what can be distilled from that truth into usable understanding is limited by the development of the collective mind.

However, we ARE moving in the direction of understanding Oneness in a broader more complete way. And that, I argue, is the telling thing. It is becoming apparent not only in our religions, (which tend to cling to tradition and do not always quickly reflect these broadened understandings) but in our technologies, our political concepts, which are other, equally important manifestations of the consciousness of the collective. I am arguing that you have to look at human consciousness as a whole, not slice and dice it into segments and criticize bits of it while ignoring the broader movements of it.

Which is why I said I feel that the middle Eastern religions, no matter how flawed, represented a real evolutionary step in this understanding. Not a failure of it, no matter how much trouble aspects of it seem to be causing us, the movement is still occurring. It has NOT halted this move towards understanding "unity" it has merely been an imperfect vehicle for a part of it.

[edit on 10-11-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by whiskeyswiller
reply to post by solomons path

 

Without Judaism there would be no society.

It was with the rise of Judaism and jewish laws that society flourished.

So no, it's not the cause of societal ills.

The human condition is. Humans are born violent and problematic.

It's just how it is. Look at the countries with no religion at all, it happens there too.

With respect that is absolute poppycock.
What about the Sumerian or Chinese cultures?
They had law,art,reading,writing,music,medicine..even gardening far before judaism (and abrahamic lore) was even conceived of.
Your opinions sound a little like (un)conscious religious propaganda to me and to suggest that noone conducted fair trade/barter,healed themselves,self governed themselves,read,wrote,played music or displayed values like benevolence,empathy,compassion or kindness before the inception of one specific (quite relatively young) organised religious institiution is laughable.
As for the human animal;Bonobo chimpanzees in the wild have been observed displaying ´charity without reward´ behaviour so your very pessimistic view of mankind could well be skewed.
Who knows? Maybe the introduction of divisive,negative traits into society like religious bigotry and love of power acted as a catalyst to make man more violent and problematic.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Nope,
Can't go with it.
There were wars and societal ills before and separate from Christianity and Judaism. It may seem to revolve around them presently and in recent history but you are just leaving too much out of the picture.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

You are so right in your discussion of revelation and experience of oneness ,that was well put . We do need a greater humanwide experience of it for sure .

The knowing that you speak off that is

That said ,that kind of receiving of existence doesn't happen to many people and in the meantime ,the destruction and waste of life and maybe more horribly knowledge and the ability to learn from it ,continues no matter what the enlightened know .

So I conclude that that unless enlightenment becomes more universal, that is all good for the enlightened not so much for the world


that why I say something is needed maybe that something is a way to broadcast the knowing,free of the linguistic confusion you mention

Wouldn't that be nice? animals can understand their world this way, I think they do it with this knowing you speak of

I 'm going to not accept any idea that humans are so flawed that they can't have peaceful joyful prosperous societies. I know that is not true it has been done many times and it can be done again.

I do think that Patriarchy is a flawed social system and that it seems to be at the root of the current war on life itself

I think it has to seen for what it really is and marginalized or none of us are ever going to get anywhere

The beauty, however, of Oneness is that in theory, (though in practice you may need a bit more evolution to get you to that tipping point) is that it only takes one to accomplish it.

You dont have to have everyone is agreement and then have the tipping point occur.

If one person could resolve it within, completely, that change would be reflected outwardly onto all manifest reality.

What we see in the world is an accurate reflection of our own internal state, the degree to which any one of us has accepted the "fragments" within themselves. You see struggle? Well, why is that a surprise? We struggle within dont we? You see discrimination and hatred? Again, look inside, its there, there are aspects of our own "Self" we reject and dislike. You see "want and hunger?" Yep, its there too.

The macrocosm reflects the microcosm and vice versa. If you could bring abosolute peace within your own fragment of God, you, that degree of peace would be manifest in the world.

It is a direct technique, but you go in to manifest change without, not go out to manifest change within, although I suppose it could work either way. I guess I just suppose you have better odds in this illusion of working with what you most fervently believe to be you.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


That is true what you is true ,in theory,obviously no one has done it yet !
I'm working on it!

Lol. No one has done it yet, you are absolutely right. An idea that is quite unpopular with the religiously dogmatic.

You have my full support in your attempt. No matter who does it, obviously in Oneness we all benefit. I am doing my best too, but I have a feeling if the Oneness has to wait for me, hell will freeze over first.

Metaphorically of course.

hahaha! the good news is we know what NOT to do

Good luck ! Do think there's any special reward for achieving oneness singularity? Like a day off or a vacation home ,or a unicorn

Lol, seeing as how you would have, in essence, become the Divine, I would say the sky is the limit in terms of Unicorns. You could probably whip up a few rainbows to go along with it.

I appreciate every response, but I never claimed bad things didn't happen elsewhere. The point wasn't about ideology really, it's that it's mythology instills a value system that is immoral. I'm not concerned with the splinter in my foe's eye . . . I'm concerned with the culture, where I reside. I'm not extolling one belief over another, simply looking at the psychology of our culture based on their beliefs.

I should have posted references in the OP . . .
Tamarin's Study

George Tamarin did a study in 1966, in which he asked 1000 Israeli school children questions about Joshua and the battle of Jericho. He then asked questions to see where their values lay. The tale of righteous slaughter was approved of by two-third's of the school children. The question was then posed, if the children thought the Israeli army should act in the same fashion? Approval went down to one-third. However, when a control group of 1000 were given the same story with Joshua replaced by General Lin and Israel and Jericho replaced with a Chinese dynasty, approval went down to 7% . . . with 75% disapproving compared to 26% for Joshua.

You can read some more on Tamarin's study (with quotes from some children here . . .
John Hartung's article

Sure bad things happen in all cultures . . . and I have sympathy for those cultures. But . . . western culture is the driving force behind the world today, in fact, if not for Grand Imperialism Judeo-Christian mythology wouldn't dominate the world today. For 2000 years, the world's most influencial men (and to a disturbingly lesser point women) have been raised indoctrinated into a mythology that is expressed in their values . . . manifested in their actions and words . . . action and reaction based on their perception of right and wrong . . . good and evil. As Illusion said above . . . it's about how you look at things. And, it's the mythology responsible for the last 2000 year's of advancement. Good or Bad? It is what it is.

The ultimate value shaper . . . the Ten Commandments. Every Jewish, Christian, and Muslim child will be told (and many memorize) the commandments. However, it's just not that they learn the commandments, but the parable that goes along with it . . . after the build up of the great escape. Moreover, every story that goes against the commandments is reconcilled in righteous glory. TTC is just one example, but more than any other's it transcends all three branches.

And I'm quoting the NRSV to show what values are being passed on to today's culture in America . . . and the basis for every value judgement throughout the Bible.

Exodus 20:2–17
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
wikisource

First three commandments pass on unwavering obedience, faith above critical thinking, an absolutism of righteousness and truth. The first three are also punishable by death, in God's eyes.

4 passes on, once again, obedience . . . all four form the early mind to just accept what those above you decree, greasing the wheels towards a willing facist state. I'm sure there will be dissenters to this thought, but the underlying meaning and the parables about what happens to those that go against the first four commandments is not lost on the sub-conscious.

5 I have no problem with, although preaching obedience it is to the right people and stated with respect above what is displayed in the first four. . . probably should be higher up than 5

6 is intended for Jews, the chosen, only. Even Jesus would have thought this. Moreover, it's demonstrated time and again . . . and sanctioned by God against the non-believer and sinner. You would think, regardless of interpretation, this would be #1.

7 isn't bad at all . . . I'd word it differently. However, I'd take away the stories about killing those, with God's permission, who commit it.

On the surface, 8 is on good moral ground, although in tradition and story it's still only meant for the Jews. Many tales of plunder in God's name . . . it's not stealing, if they are a member of an "out" group. Don't even try to claim Christian nation's are any different than what is described by Tamarin, above.

9 is not bad either . . . although it may be meant just for the Jews, a expanded version does not illicit death . . . though giving up your offspring for carnal pleasure to uphold may be sending the wrong message.

again . . . on the surface and at face value good ground, but when your neighbor is the "out" group . . . all bet's are off, with God's blessing and satisfaction


it's late . . . I'll come back
peace

[edit on 11/11/08 by solomons path]