Going veggie shrinks the brain

Originally posted by EtSolveMundi

With that out of the way, I too have encountered numerous vegetarians and vegans with a pronounced holier-than-thou attitude. By contrast I've only known one outspoken meat-eater.

I have also met more than a few "holier than thou" vegetarians and vegans, for sure, but if you have only met one outspoken meat eater, you arent getting out enough. Lol.

Though I wouldnt characterize it as "holier than thou" on the meat eating end, it seems a bit more defensive to me. I rarely even mention that I dont eat meat, but occasionally you have no choice. For instance when a well intended friend or acquaintance is trying to get you to sample something they have ordered and "no thank you" simply didnt suffice. Some at that point will become defensive and bring up the whole "humans are meant to eat meat" argument, or the "its bad for you not to" argument, despite the fact that you are not criticizing them OR promoting vegetarianism as better morally or otherwise.


So sometimes, though certainly not all the time, I think the "holier than thou" is projected onto the vegetarian by someone who might be struggling with their own feelings to some degree.

Originally posted by EtSolveMundi
Of course there's also stevia but good luck selling someone on green tea with stevia over a diet coke.

Haven't tried stevia, but I have heard of it. Can you recommend a good website?

Originally posted by Cythraul
In the Western world, meat-eaters quite possibly consume too much protein

Hmmmm

You mean they might be pinching a meat-loaf?

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
You can't confuse needing protein to stay alive with optimizing protein intake to improve body composition(including fat loss).

I wasn't. I'm somewhat of a bodybuilder myself so I consume 150g of protein a day (on a vegan diet). That's roughly 1.66g per kg of bodyweight - twice the 0.8g you cited. 0.8g/kg bodyweight might be the minimum, but I don't know a single meat and dairy eater who doesn't get considerably more than that. For vegans it's a little harder and with carelessness it's easy to drop below the recommended quantity, but vegans make up a tiny fraction of the world (particularly the western world) and therefore I'm fairly sure the majority of humans do get enough protein. The Thermic Effect of protein intake on calorie-burning is only something that people with too much saturated fat or carbohydrate in their diet (and not enough exercise) need worry about.

But you may be right about low protein intake. Do you have links to any studies suggesting this to be the case?

reply to post by Cythraul


I didn't actually mean you shouldn't confuse the two. I gotta choose my words more carefully.

I would agree that most people consume more than is needed for maintenance. I remember reading somewhere that the average male consumes 100g of protein per day. Is that enough protein? It depends on what you define as "enough". I believe an active individual should intake 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight, with strength and performance athletes consuming 1.5g per pound.

The point with TEF is basically, if you eat more protein, you're body works harder to process it. So, if you replace 50 grams of carbohydrates with 50g of protein, the act of eating alone will cause you to burn more calories. Thermogenics, gotta love it. Now I only mentioned one of the benefits of high protein. Plenty of others, including; Increased Glucagon, Improved Weight loss, Increased Nitrogen Status, and even a reduction in cardiovascular risk.

I personally consume between 1-1.5g a day and strength train and play almost basketball daily. Most of my caloric intake is in the from protein and fat.

I have a question for you. About how much saturated fat would you say you consume in a day and what sources to you receive it from? Also, you want links to studies about protein synthesis in general or more something more specific?

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Recommended Daily Allowance for protein is actually 0.36 grams of protein per pound of body weight. 1 gram per pound would be out of control. You must be built like a brick house.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Daily allowance? Do you have any idea what researchers use to determine daily allowance? I guarantee that the number you suggested is based on the need to sustain muscle mass. Any less and the body will begin to consume muscle for protein and eventually organs, until death.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


It's not optimum or performance based, but for the average Joe, that will more than suffice.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Yeah, to stay alive! The average Joe is fat and completely out of shape and would benefit greatly from increasing protein consumption. It's really that simple. There is corroborating data on this subject that suggests increased protein intake has numerous health benefits. More than just a need to maintain muscle.......

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I just racked it up, and I'm supposed to be getting roughly 50 grams a day, and I'm lucky to get that on a good day. I would say that you're correct in that I'm sustaining the muscle mass I have now at about 30-40 grams of protein per day, but I'm definitely not getting bigger. The quality of food and nutrients probably has a lot to do with some of us not withering away as well.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
There is corroborating data on this subject that suggests increased protein intake has numerous health benefits.

yes - and if you look into The China Study the case has been made that animal protein is much different than other types of protein.

The authors state that “several studies have now shown, in both experimental animals and in humans, that consuming animal-based protein increases blood cholesterol levels. Saturated fat and dietary cholesterol also raise blood cholesterol, although these nutrients are not as effective at doing this as is animal protein. In contrast, plant-based foods contain no cholesterol and, in various other ways, help to decrease the amount of cholesterol made by the body.”[12]

The authors also state that "these disease associations with blood cholesterol were remarkable, because blood cholesterol and animal-based food consumption both were so low by American standards. In rural China, animal protein intake (for the same individual) averages only 7.1 grams per day whereas Americans average 70 grams per day."[12]

here's a video with T. Colin Campbell discussing more details:

Google Video Link

Originally posted by Symbiote

Originally posted by EtSolveMundi
Of course there's also stevia but good luck selling someone on green tea with stevia over a diet coke.

Haven't tried stevia, but I have heard of it. Can you recommend a good website?

www.stevitastevia.com...

highly recommended. Here is the product page:

stevitastevia.com...

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
I believe an active individual should intake 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight, with strength and performance athletes consuming 1.5g per pound...
I personally consume between 1-1.5g a day and strength train and play almost basketball daily. Most of my caloric intake is in the from protein and fat.

That is an awful lot (depending on your size - I'm guessing as a basketball player you're not small/short. Or am I stereotyping?). I've found that my 0.75g/pound has allowed me to build plenty of muscle and recover very quickly from all training, but then I only weight train with occassional bouts of soccer or squash. Nevertheless, the average person only looking to maintain existing muscle mass does not need this much protein and as stated in my final point of this post, should look to increased exercise and decreased fat-propogating foods first and foremost. Once those things are in check, increased protein might be necessary ore helpful.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
I have a question for you. About how much saturated fat would you say you consume in a day and what sources to you receive it from?

Difficult to say. I can tell you that my source is mostly a variety of nuts and seeds. Probably around 20g saturated fat from those sources a day + bits here and there from soya milk and the traces found in most foods.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Also, you want links to studies about protein synthesis in general or more something more specific?

More specific. I'm wondering what you read that made you think most people are lacking in protein consumption.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Yeah, to stay alive! The average Joe is fat and completely out of shape and would benefit greatly from increasing protein consumption. It's really that simple.

The 'Average Joe' would first and foremost benefit from more exercise and less saturated/trans fats, sugar and salt in their diet. Excessive protein consumption should not be promoted as the primary weapon against fat. That's basically the Atkins diet - which is for lazy people .

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Or you could just do eggs and dairy. Both provide B12 and meet the qualifications for a flesh free diet.

And, humanely raised eggs tend to be cheaper per serving than even factory farmed meat. Although I was just reading that eggs also contain something that inhibits the B12 absorption.

Yes, I added eggs (and Dairy) into the quote I made.
If you don't want to eat the chicken after it develops then eat it before.

Whatever works, I personally don't see a difference.
We're both eating chicken.



- Lee

Originally posted by NightVision
That being said, if we are we are an in agreement that Murder is to deprive something of life against its will, then technically, harvesting and killing a plant would be murder. The plant is technically alive even though there is no proof it makes conscious decisions. What about, say, a clam?

Clams...good point.

Is it about what we define as sentience as it specifically relates to us or are there levels of existence that can also fall under that category while not meeting each requirement?

A lot of recent studies have shown that plants have a reaction to stress and/or injury. They seem to attempt to limit or avoid the injury done to them and at the same time warn other plants of the danger!

I think this is an amazing discovery and if valid should change how we view plant life.

Here's a recent one from the BBC:

Stressed plants 'produce aspirin'

Plants facing stressful conditions like drought produce their own aspirin-like chemical, US researchers say.

Thomas Karl, who led the study, said the chemical triggers "the formation of proteins that boost their biochemical defences and reduce injury".

"Our measurements show that significant amounts of the chemical can be detected in the atmosphere as plants respond to drought, unseasonable temperatures, or other stresses." BBC

Now sure one could blindly and unreasonably see these recent scientific finds as another attempt to discredit vegetarian/vegan lifestyles, which I doubt, but what if these studies have actual merit? We would have to reconsider our stance on the "life" of a plant. If the main issue is "murder" of sentient life against it's will and plants can react in defense for the sake of self preservation perhaps they would fall under the same category. We can be "murdering" plants.

This would then cause some honest issues to those that have specifically a moral problem with eating animals on the basis of it being "murder".

- Lee

[edit on 19-9-2008 by lee anoma]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

So sometimes, though certainly not all the time, I think the "holier than thou" is projected onto the vegetarian by someone who might be struggling with their own feelings to some degree.

...and visa versa.

I'm not a shill for the meat industry by any means, and I've never attacked someone at a restaurant for not having a steak on his plate (does that even happen?) but I have seen people tear into others for eating one. I just don't see the same thing on the over side of the room.

I can understand the passion though and if the issues come down to "treatment" of the animal, and the hormonal manipulation there are ways around that. I rarely eat red meat but when I do I buy organic, free range, and hormone free. I avoid the big cruel messy industry all together.

Problem solved for me even if it's not good enough for some.

The issue of the "killing" being wrong is something else entirely.
That's just personal opinion in my book.

We can eat meat...or we can choose not to.
Neither is right or wrong in my book.


- Lee

Originally posted by Cythraul
That is an awful lot (depending on your size - I'm guessing as a basketball player you're not small/short. Or am I stereotyping?). I've found that my 0.75g/pound has allowed me to build plenty of muscle and recover very quickly from all training, but then I only weight train with occassional bouts of soccer or squash. Nevertheless, the average person only looking to maintain existing muscle mass does not need this much protein and as stated in my final point of this post, should look to increased exercise and decreased fat-propogating foods first and foremost. Once those things are in check, increased protein might be necessary ore helpful.

I over estimated. I'll give the exacts. When I'm actively training, I take in between 130g and 170g of protein, depending on what I eat and whether or not I actually trained that day. So, 4 days out of the week I'll take in at least 150g. I way 150 on the dot and am 5'11''. Kinda short for basketball, I know.

Originally posted by Cythraul
Difficult to say. I can tell you that my source is mostly a variety of nuts and seeds. Probably around 20g saturated fat from those sources a day + bits here and there from soya milk and the traces found in most foods.

That sounds good. I eat a lot of Saturated Fat. In fact, I used to be just a tad overweight and when I added a ton of fat, including saturated fat from coconut oil and meat, I lost every bit and became lean almost overnight.

Originally posted by Cythraul
More specific. I'm wondering what you read that made you think most people are lacking in protein consumption.

I'll provide some of the best studies performed by the leading researchers on the subject, tomorrow. I only have few minutes to give some feedback really quickly.

Originally posted by Cythraul
The 'Average Joe' would first and foremost benefit from more exercise and less saturated/trans fats, sugar and salt in their diet. Excessive protein consumption should not be promoted as the primary weapon against fat. That's basically the Atkins diet - which is for lazy people

.

I would say diet first. Diet is 80% of the battle. I would also disagree with the notion that less saturated fat will be beneficial. I'm not suggesting that increasing protein consumption should be #1 on the list, however, I believe that combined with a few other tweaks of the diet, a dieter can see results quicker and be healthier in the process.

Hey now, don't be bashing Atkins. I'll post more later, got a softball game.

Originally posted by EtSolveMundi Groups like PETA take a dietary choice and turn it into a moral crusade and a way of life. If people can't even agree to disagree about diet what hope is there for important issues?

That is another issue in itself. The "moral" crusade is what I take issue with.
To live comfortably in the modern world is to do so at someones expense.
You can't avoid it.

Now some may have a moral issue with the treatment of the animals befor slaughter, or even if the treatment is humane the killing itself but what about the other possibly perceived immorality of the food industry?

Is the fruit and vegetable industry beyond reproach?

Hardly.

Many of those vegetables bought come at the expense of slave labor. Illegal immigrants or simply uneducated locked out immigrants forced to work all day picking the tomato's for our salads for way below minimum wage. In some cases like with Mexico illegals they are held hostage by Mexicans already here in America on farms and ranches and keep in cabins. They are forced to pick fruits and vegetables for practically nothing (or to pay back unreasonable debts) on both sides of the border. Now the factories get out of this by not owning the land but they have no problems buying the goods from the vegetable slavers.

If meat is murder then fruits and vegetables are slavery.

Are We Eating the Fruits of Slave Labor?

Slavery in America is alive and well, according to author John Bowe, whose book Nobodies documents the shocking degree to which some American industries--including food producers--are exploiting foreign workers. Bowe's book is a shot across the bow to American consumers; are we so enslaved by our own addictions to cheap food and cut-price clothing that we'll still buy these things knowing they're a product of slave labor? Huffington Post

An interesting book on the subject:

Many of us have a romantic notion about where our food comes from. We see beautiful fruits and vegetables displayed at the store and notions of a man on a tractor, a quaint farmhouse in a pastoral setting come to mind. We simply don’t think about the path our food takes before it ends up on our table.

The food industry is no longer made up of small farms run “mom and pop” style. Instead a huge corporation will own a company that purchases the crops that go into making their product, like tomatoes for Del Monte. Someone else owns the land and someone else acts as a middleman who supplies workers to work the fields. These workers are desperate. They will be lured into working and living in dreadful conditions and then too scared to leave, only because they were gullible enough to think they would be treated fairly and paid a living wage. These are modern day slaves and they exist right here in the good old USA.
NYPL.org

Some try and skirt the issue but the abuses are still apparent.

Growers Continue to Misrepresent Rights Abuses

First, Brown claims “there have been no slavery cases that have directly involved commercial tomato growers” and denies the existence of modern-day slavery in the agriculture industry. Mr. Brown, wake up: In the past decade, there have been six federally prosecuted cases of slavery in Florida alone, involving over 1,000 workers. At least three operations involved tomato pickers, working on “commercial tomato growers” farms, including the most current case in which workers were locked inside trucks and beaten if they tried to escape. If the monitoring mechanisms that Brown praised do indeed work, these cases would not keep surfacing. The Hoya.com

My bolds-edits brevity

You can't take the moral high ground in any instance and be a part of modern society without in some way seeming naively egocentric or believe one morally ambiguous path is greater than another. The high horse isn't so high at all. We are all guilty by association, complacence or ignorance.

Unless you can trace back everything you own or use to a verifiable uncorrupted source it's best to just not point the finger at all.

- Lee

reply to post by lee anoma


Personally, I think this is rubbish science and journalism. Meat is not the only source of these nutrients, and eating flesh in any form has more negative than beneficial effects on the human body. I do remember a doctor who said that eating beans and rice provide the same proteins as red/white meat, without the harmful effects of eating meat.

Originally posted by PhilltFred
reply to post by lee anoma

 

Personally, I think this is rubbish science and journalism. Meat is not the only source of these nutrients, and eating flesh in any form has more negative than beneficial effects on the human body. I do remember a doctor who said that eating beans and rice provide the same proteins as red/white meat, without the harmful effects of eating meat.

That is true.

I agree meat is not the only source, and the article isn't claiming this. They are pointing out the findings of those in this study that were vegetarian and had a lack of adequate B12 in their diet. I think over consumption of a mostly meat diet can be detrimental to the human body sure, but not simply eating meat as a part of your diet. That is false. If you balance your diet, eating meat is fine.

I don't think it's junk science at all though. As it points out, a lack of B12 in your diet can cause brain shrinkage among other more notable health issues. This appears to be true. As the site I pointed out stated, "The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs." It also pointed out how some people with a strictly vegetable diet can simply be receiving B12 through reabsorption and not specifically from the diet they have, which can simply cause health problems down the road. This of course is from a vegetarian website.

You can get it elsewhere, but if you can't or won't then meat will suffice.

- Lee