California: Save your home, go to jail.

Originally posted by Yell04
So, in short, this man should have stood back and watched his and his neighbors houses burn down because he may have made a mistake setting his backfire and burned his and his neighbors houses down?

You people who support the law no matter what are precisely what's killing this country. If it's the law, then it must be right, just and designed with my best interests at heart. Pfft!

there us where you are wrong. i support the law when you risk dozens to save a few. this mans sucess was brave and heroic. but his luck probably desirves more credit.

smoky the bear says 80% of forest fires are man made. that means 80% can be prevented.

speaking from some one who has done this as a job and lost a house to a fire this is a tatic i would never employ unless a humans life was in danger not their tv. and i have employed this tatic to save my life and one or two others. but when i did it it was not around any other people and i already had a wall of fire on all four sides.


reply to post by desert


yes truly an amazing site. ive seen i know hundreds of such fires. i burned 4600 acres a year for 7 years. and that is nothing compared to some of the wild fires that have happened accdently.but its been enough to see more go wrong with fire than most people will ever see. i loved it for the rush.

have you ever seen a fire devil. i wish i had a pic but burning is something you minimize taking personal efects into. the only reason i have that one pic is because one of my friends in the pic brought it. and they were made to stay at a safe distance until the fire was controlled

[edit on 15amu12007 by DaleGribble]

reply to post by Yell04


No.
But he has to face the legal penalties just the same

Originally posted by DocMoreau

Whether certified or not, no individual is allowed to prescribed burn during a declared emergency drought unless a written permit is obtained from DOF (Section 590.081). In any event, DOF generally will not authorize a prescribed burn (verbally or in writing) during periods of extreme drought conditions.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but this phrasing means that you can't try to save your own property if a fire breaks out, say, in the middle of the night...When there's no one in the DOF Office to give you permission? Or the fire starts on the weekend? Or you have to wait 2-5 days for your request for permission to reach the DOF & another 2-5 days for the "written permission" to get back to you through the USPS?

Seems to me that the PTB really need to get a sense of reality about how slow a bureaucracy responds in any emergency situation...

Originally posted by DezertSkies
And speaking of man's law, why are the lawmakers so special that i must allow them to be my rulers? That's an illusion in itself, man has no authority over other men, he only creates the illusion that he does and uses it as a method to control others. Allah is the only entity that truly has the right to rule men.

And this is the primary difference between the corrupted government & the Constitution that they're sworn/affirmed an Oath to obey...The Constitution was written with the Laws of Nature as Set Forth by the Creator in mind, because the Laws of Nature supersede any Laws of Man (even though these governments try to convince the population otherwise).

Originally posted by DaleGribble
anyone who wishes to become a fire manager in good ole cali
wildlandrx.com...
its is an option...

But probably not a well-advertised option for those who wish they could save themselves without breaking some kind of law...How many city/county/State governments even post any notices for the availability for this kind of education?

Originally posted by Trance Optic
He did what any survival joe would of.... Survived. Thats something Mundane America doesnt know about.

And this is one of the major points that TheRedneck was pointing out...That our society has become too "overspecialized" to function in true emergency situations. In modern times, the education system is more geared towards "depth training" rather than "broad training."
Better by far to be a Jack-of-all-Trades rather than a Master-in-One-Specialty. If you can manage to be a Master-in-One-Specialty while still having a broad enough base of knowledge to also be the Jack-of-all-Trades too, then more power to you!


[edit on 9-7-2008 by MidnightDStroyer]

reply to post by DaleGribble

First of all, I want to apologize for dropping out of sight on this. Firefox crashed and before I could recover, I had to go to work.

Cool pic, and I can tell you were doing most of the work. The other two guys couldn't even see, they seemed to have something white all over their faces.

speaking from some one who has done this as a job and lost a house to a fire this is a tatic i would never employ unless a humans life was in danger not their tv. and i have employed this tatic to save my life and one or two others. but when i did it it was not around any other people and i already had a wall of fire on all four sides.

He had a wall on three sides, and the only thing on his fourth was his home, according to one of the reports I linked. And this was not about saving a TV, it was about saving everything he had. Losing a home has to be one of the most debilitating experiences imaginable. You can have plenty of insurance, but will that replace the photos of loved ones past, the records, the priceless memories? Not quite. Last time I checked, WalMart doesn't carry those.

The man did what he had to do, period. He succeeded, apparently due to his expertise (I base this on the amount of praise he received from the professionals), not just dumb luck. Now he is facing a huge fine and jail time, but apparently his brother is more appreciative than the rulers of the area; his brother chose to face the penalties for him.

I will never condone someone who knows they are incapable of succeeding in such an endeavor attempting it. You are right that the consequences can be heinous. But this was an emergency situation, and he did in fact stop the fire and save not only his own home, but the homes of his neighbors. If there was ever a reason to forgo the letter of the law, it is here.

Oh, and before this SHODS (Silly Hunk Of Dirty Silicon) crashes again, let me thank you for the work you do. Fire control has to be a demanding and dangerous work. I hope it is as rewarding.

reply to post by DocMoreau

Here in rural Alabama, we still allow citizens to be people. Firefighting without the ability to do so is not illegal, only stupid.

It is common for farmers to burn off fields, for homeowners to burn brush, or for anyone to attempt to save their home any way they see fit on their own land. I personally have a burning pit where I burn any brush from clearing or cleaning, as well as any household waste that can be burned from a practical view (no, I don't burn tires or stuff that smokes like that; I recycle them into planters for yummy potatoes! ). No permits are required, and should the county try to require them, I would hazard to guess there would be a run on good stout rope at the stores and a sudden disappearance of those who tried to regulate. Neighbors keep things in check. If I see a lot of smoke in the distance, I jump in the pickup and drive toward it. 99% of the time, I see something under control and drive on by. Occasionally I see fire engines and I actually turn around to make sure I am not in anyone's way. Twice have I seen a fire that I needed to help with, and both times I did what I could, mostly getting water or beating at smaller flames to stop the spread until the pros arrived. I know this is strange to some, but I am perfectly capable of carrying water and do not have a water-carrying license. I am perfectly capable of beating out flames, and I do not have a license for that either.

This mountain behind me has not burned for well in excess of 100 years. I pray it never does, but should it start, I will hopefully be there to fight it tooth and nail. Without a license.

reply to post by Trance Optic
[guote]as a home owner in cali, it should be required to learn backburning an such, just so if this happens everyone is that much the wiser.... an no one goes to jail or gets fines for saving their home....

Now there's an idea! I'll second that, seems like California could use a few million semi-trained firefighters right about now...

reply to post by desert

I like the idea of a homeowner who lives in areas like this homeowner could go through training. But, all in all, a fire takes what a fire takes sometimes, and no matter how well intentioned this person was, he was also very lucky! Lord, yes, even controlled burns do get out of control sometimes. People should not think that they can do what this man did with the same success.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that someone should be allowed to start a dangerous fire for convenience. This is about a man who had training from the past and was able to save property (and possibly lives? Were the neighbors there when the fire came?) in an emergency situation.

I think Trance Optic's idea makes even more sense in this respect. the better educated a homeowner is in handling fire, the less likely they are to mis-handle it.

To those who defended my position in my short absence, thanks, you get it. There has never been a governmental body anywhere, anytime, that could accomplish everything that had to be done. No police force can be everywhere a crime happens. No fire department can contain such a large number of raging wildfires at every home, and no doctor can cure every illness.

At some point, the people themselves must be counted upon to know what is right and what is wrong. If the potential situation requires training, then train them! Would tax dollars not be more wisely spent to train homeowners the basics of firefighting than to hire more and more full-time firefighters to battle fires that could possibly have been stopped short by someone with a bit of knowledge?

Ask those who died in the wake of Katrina, while waiting on the government to help them rather than helping themselves. Ask those in Texas who survived Rita shortly thereafter if they think waiting for help would have been better than what they did? Help from above is a wonderful thing, but it is not ever a replacement for good old-fashioned self-sufficiency.

TheRedneck

reply to post by DaleGribble


In 2002 my husband and I were picnicking in the Sierras, when the tragic McNally Fire started. We had set out our lounge chairs, and about 10 minutes later, I noticed some black smoke above the tree line. I wasn't worried until it just grew and grew so quickly.
As it turned out, we were miles as the crow flies from the fire, but it looked like it was only a couple miles away. We literally threw everything in the pickup bed and raced down the mountain. My God, in just another 10 minutes the sky was being eaten up by thick red and black smoke, darkening the day. I couldn't get off those mountains fast enough, but as we were driving down, fire crews passed by going into that fire. You gotta be in some state of mind, body and soul to go into that hell. Those were my heroes.

I think it was during last Fall's San Diego fires that there was a newscast showing what looked like a fire tornado. It was eerie. I'd never seen anything like that before.

reply to post by desert


if insanity is a state of mind then yes thats what you got to have to go into that.

what i did was wildfire managment, known as controlled burnnig. we set these fires on purpose in other words. usualy about 50 acres at a time, but often it turned into a whole heep more than that. we burnt off sections of woods in yearly rotation. so if by ill fate a forest fire did ignite there wouldnt be as much fuel to burn..

reply to post by TheRedneck


i was wondering what happened.

i whish i had more pics. but as i said in an earlier post. its not something you want to bring with you into that mess.

i love Alabama. my entire faimly lives there except Me mom and dad.

if its really been that long since that forest has lit you might consider writeing to the Al forestry commision or your congresman. or anyone for that matter..


if they did this in cali and flordia these wild fires would not be nearly as severe saddly their is a political party that will go un mentioned that fails to see the scientificaly proven positives to this pratice. and makes it very hard to do.

i always wanted to be a wildfire fighter, until i faught in my first one.
had i been alone. well i wouldnt be typing this.

edit you will get no arguement from me about this mans heroisim, but that is the only thing i can commend him on. even if he was trained.

trust me i know you cant buy those things back. i lost my house in march 2004. as a 22 yearold single man who lived by his self it wasnt easy. i couldnt sleep for two weeks.

the white stuff on their faces..








[edit on 15amu122007 by DaleGribble]

reply to post by DaleGribble


Wildfire management! Cool. In the local national forests, I've driven through areas of controlled burning. Once I got to see the crews in action, with their cans of whatever it is they use, starting little fires.
Lightening strikes are often used as nature's controlled burns. They are watched , but not put out each time.

reply to post by desert



drip torches or flame throwers is what we used.

they put whats called "hot mix" in them. 4 parts desiel and 1 part gas.

ive got to see the ping pong balls with hot mix in them shot out of helocopters twice. talk about jealous. man oh man.

edit: usually we let these fires burn until they die out. the only time you fight them is when they get into an area that the wernt suppose to. once the main brush is burnt there are only a few trees burning you can leave them mostly unattened. checking on them every few hours..

[edit on 15amu122007 by DaleGribble]

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer


it dosent take that long to get a permit.

usualy you give them your licens number and they do it over the phone takes about 2 minutes. which is like weeks when dealing with a fire..

reply to post by TheRedneck




This is what happens when fear of what is legal meets head on, with some common sense.

I would hope that the jury would not only find the man not guilty, but find the law inadequate

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Oh, and before this SHODS (Silly Hunk Of Dirty Silicon) crashes again, let me thank you for the work you do. Fire control has to be a demanding and dangerous work. I hope it is as rewarding.

yes it was rewarding. sitting here thinking about it i wouldnt mind getting back into it. it was hard and dangrous. but fun. you have to truly love fire to do a job like that and my hat goes off every time i meet a fireman..

the most rewarding thing was the night fires. absolute beauty. watching some thing that distructive is awsome, in its own right.

seeing 100ft flames and watching pine trees spray fountians of sparks several hundred feet higher is about the best firework show you well ever watch... and we all love fireworks.


[edit on 15amu122007 by DaleGribble]

reply to post by DaleGribble
Oh, believe me, I wouldn't just drop something I consider this important for no reason. Nice to meet another of the blessed ones (Alabama born) too

I'm curious, why would I want to write to the forestry commission? Part of me is fearful of advertising this treasure behind me; someone might want to make a national park out of it (and destroy the natural beauty in the process). This is not just an unspoiled wilderness; it is my home.

A quick glimpse of my 'paradise':

100 years is what we know, as my family has lived here for a little more than that. We have no evidence of it ever burning (although that doesn't mean it never happened. The pic was taken from inside my house, without a zoom.

I will never admit that this man is a criminal, but then again, after our discussion, I doubt you can either. I hope you'll think over some of the things I mentioned, because the present trend toward overspecialization through legal restriction is one of the most heinous situations facing us today.

Gotta go drive!

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


i mentioned the letter because it read like you were conserned about it. i may have misunderstood. however a good forest ranger will take in to coinsideration such things.

no the man is no criminal i must retract parts of my first post. however he is setting a bad example by doing this. that was my biggest problem.

i didnt mean to hijack the thread either. its just these are some of my passions in life. and i really miss doing it.

drive safe my friend. keep america moving...

edit.
i have been suprised this didnt get more responces. it is something i believe every one should at least take the time to read about. wild fires that is. and not just what the media says about them but the actual science behind them...

[edit on 15amu92007 by DaleGribble]

[edit on 15amu102007 by DaleGribble]

reply to post by DaleGribble

Thanks for reply about the flame throwers and the mixture; and I didn't realize helicopters' play a part in this, too.
Also, I forgot to say how sorry I was to read about your home loss.

Redneck, you live in absolute beauty. The only thing I can compare it to out here is where my son lives in Northern California on the coast. The green, the green...
Until I traveled to the eastern half of the USA, I never knew just how green land can be. I mean, everything is green.

Out here, to get even a backyard like yours, we have to plant a ton of plants, and it still can't truly compare.

reply to post by desert


thanks a loss of any kind is never an easy thing. it was a while ago. i dont talk about it much but i thought it was important to the point i was trying to make.

what dosent kill us makes us stronger...

reply to post by TheRedneck


See, you missed the point...

By setting those fires, he is destroying Precious animal habitats... and well thats just not right, you cant do that in California...

[/sarcasim]


This is a big problem here in california, the uber-envio-libs WILL NOT let people do this, or let firefighters do this, THEY FIGHT IT, they fight it every inch of the way, the uber-enviro-libs WILL not let it happen, they get up and say that doing a control burn will threaten bunnies, or other animals habitats... and the illigal alliens too, you might accidently destroy a little mexican town, if you burn down the Brush...


Its realy sick, last year, California Burned for over 100 Days, fires destroyed some of San Diago... WHY, because everything was dry, and 1 spark, and the entire state is on fire, and because they firefighters cannot do controled burn to AHEAD OF TIME, to aviod this, EVERY year we are going to have this, until the uber-enviro-libs back off, and stop caring about the Rabbit Population, and start careing about the AMERICAN POPULATION



I feel bad for this guy... but this is California... the Sickest place in all the land...


Now, whats the lesson here? What are they doing this for? What are they conditioning you for?

Its not that hard to see right? I mean, this is getting kinda easy...

This is just ANOTHER step, towards the totaltarian Nanny state!

Realy thats all, they want you to depend on the Goverment Institutions, and not even THINK about doing anything yourself... Save your house from a Fire! NO!!! You better get on the phone and Call the World Wildlife Federation, and ask about all the wildlife that is in your back yard, and learn how to evacuate the Dung Beatles, and move them to a new Habbitat... so you dont hurt the enviroment...

Bullocks... This is an example of what uber-liberialism does... at its very root...

[edit on 7/10/2008 by TKainZero]

reply to post by TKainZero


very true indeed. in fact prescribed burning is proven to help wildlife populations flurish. how ever large scale uncontroled fires can displace animals.

the fresh ash is used by many animals for "dusting" the removal of mites and other bugs. also the forest begins to regorw almost instantly. giving way to new growth which provides more food for animals and insects. the forest is extremely resilent. this new growth given, what the soil moisture is, can grow back in as little a 3 days... very interesting stuff indeed. well to me anyways..

Originally posted by Unit541
Oh no! A man thinking for himself! I can't think of anything more threatening than a man who actually makes a decision for himself. Instead of waiting in apathy for overwhelmed uniforms to come save his home, he took action! Give him life! He's a detriment to society!

In all honesty, he's done a wonderful job, not only in saving these homes, but in exposing the governmental machine for what it is... A power hungry bully, who would rather see peoples lives ruined than let someone else take the credit for saving them.

I totally agree with you on the government part. The government really doesn't give a crap about anyone. Will they hear out and listen to your concerns? No. So we'll do ourselves a favor to do something about it that threatens one's life and property.


It's like this close example: Say if your neighbors house is on fire and they turn out not to be home you called 911 but the firetrucks are already out and scrambling to other fires. What would the ordinary person do, to prevent further damage to other homes that may be threatened from the house fire? When it appears that the fire crew arrive way later than expected.

Would it be illegal to fight the fire yourself? Or protect the houses around the neighbor's house? I sure would do something about it myself.

Originally posted by Shrukin89

It's like this close example: Say if your neighbors house is on fire and they turn out not to be home you called 911 but the firetrucks are already out and scrambling to other fires. What would the ordinary person do, to prevent further damage to other homes that may be threatened from the house fire? When it appears that the fire crew arrive way later than expected.

Would it be illegal to fight the fire yourself? Or protect the houses around the neighbor's house? I sure would do something about it myself.

fighting a house fire and a wild fire cant even be compaired to each other. except that they are both dangrous as hell.

here in the south you can fight fires on your own property. however the problem was fighting a fire with more fire. had something gone wrong the already out of controll fire would have increased exponentialy.

the "something" this man did was very dangrous. had had the potential to put more people at risk than he saved.

the news should have never reported the sucess of what this this hero did, and let me tell you why.

now you are gonna have idiots whit no knowlege of how to do this going around saving homes and killing people. that is the only problem i have with this story..

reply to post by DaleGribble

now you are gonna have idiots whit no knowlege of how to do this going around saving homes and killing people. that is the only problem i have with this story..

I understand your concern, but this goes back to public education. It is already reported, every time the news reports how the firefighters are setting a controlled backfire. What is not reported is how dangerous it is. We would have a lot less of those idiots you are concerned about if there was public education of how not to react to a fire, and not just 'let the professionals do it'. Give the people the knowledge they need. emphasize about keeping areas cleared (and even let the firefighters clear areas before a fire hits), teach safety with fire, how the winds can whip it up, how easy it is for a fire to spread across dry grass, etc.

My stepfather a couple of years back was burning some brush in a high wind. Why, I have no earthly idea. The fire quickly leaped onto the dry sagegrass around it and took off. When I reralized the problem, it was already covering about 500 feet square and running with the wind.

To make a long story short, we saved everything, with a lot of help from the local fire department. But it was 30 minutes before they could respond, as there had been another fire a few miles away. For that period, I was dousing the flames that were trying to circle back with water from a makeshift bucket brigade, and trying to beat out flames close to some old car parts that contained oils. In that 30 minutes, I was totally exhausted. So I know some of what you guys have to go through.

But what could have prevented that fire? If my stepfather had known better, the fire would never have been lit. You would be surprised just how many average people do not realize a small fire can become a wildfire, in just minutes.

Look at things this way: we have plenty of public education for firearms, sponsored by hunting clubs, the NRA, etc. These are all good things sice they educate people to handle firearms properly, a necessity in any civilized society where firearms are available. Fire, on the other hand, can happen naturally so it is more impossible to remove it from society than it is firearms. Would it not be as prudent to educate people rather than simply stating that burning is illegal, just as it is more prudent to educate people on handling firearms than to try and make them illegal?

And to the idea of not publishing the story, I vehemently disagree. No story should be withheld from the people because it shows what some may consider a bad example. I personally think it is a wonderful example of how knowledge, skill, and thought can work even in unlicensed hands to accomplish good things. I think we have plenty of stories on how dangerous fire is.

TheRedneck