Is 'Church' no longer a place of virtue?

I was attending my parents church this past weekend and I noticed some things that made me uncomfortable.

1. Name-brand Bibles. LINK

I found this whole idea absurd. It seems that someone who has studied the Bible extensively is trying to make capital gains off of teaching people its contents.

This reminds me of a passage in John 2:15, where Jesus throws the money changers out of the church.

2. Copyrighted Worship Music. LINK

This is much like the Name-Brand Bibles, in that it shows that people have blurred the line between worship and WORK.

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” Matthew 22:21. What is happening here is God's followers are using "Caesar's" intellectual property laws to make money at the expense of other members of God's family. Also, these rules have been enforced (through coercion) fairly harshly. Some church's have had to pay other people and "Christian" record companies over these intellectual property issues.

I think this shows who is really running the American Christian movement..... humans, and this is completely missing the whole point of the lessons found in the Bible. Christians need to help each other out, and not be a detriment to their brothers and sisters in Christ. More so, we also need to help out people that are not Christians, not to judge them and chuck verses down their throats.
We need to act respectable and respect others and their beliefs. It is not our job to save the world( that is God's alone).

reply to post by DINSTAAR

I was attending my parents church this past weekend and I noticed some things that made me uncomfortable.

Welcome to the "club".

The Church age ends in apostasy:
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (APOSTASY!) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Secondly, you are correct:

Matt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

We need to act respectable and respect others and their beliefs

Please expound on this? (I'm not sure what you are saying).

reply to post by DINSTAAR


The people who write this copyrighted material are not necessarily who makes the money from it.
A well known example would be Dr Marten Luther King.He did speeches and sermons that belong to his wife and she charges for the use of them.


[edit on 16-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Please expound on this? (I'm not sure what you are saying).

Many Christians I know (not friends, just acquainted) are quick to judge others and often make statements that show their ignorance(TURN OR BURN!!!). They are not examples of Christ's love, but their own irrational ideas of what Christ is.

The basis of this statement is not to judge others.

The people who write this copyrighted material are not necessarily who makes the money from it.

True, but this does not make it right.

A well known example would be Dr Marten Luther King.He did speeches and sermons that belong to his wife and she charges for the use of them.

I think that this would cheapen the content in the sermons. Why can't these positive things be freely distributed and reproduced. The easiest way to 'spread the Word'(in a general and Biblical context) is to make it free and able to copy. This is the hyperdistribution model of the information age. Why can't religion take the initiative and start it legally?

reply to post by DINSTAAR

Many Christians I know (not friends, just acquainted) are quick to judge others and often make statements that show their ignorance(TURN OR BURN!!!). They are not examples of Christ's love, but their own irrational ideas of what Christ is.

John the Baptist was sent with a message:

Matt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I suppose one could say this message is equal to "TURN Or BURN!!!"?

I like the saying, "Get saved...or go to Hell"

Same thing?

reply to post by DINSTAAR

They are not examples of Christ's love, but their own irrational ideas of what Christ is.

Jesus, Himself, said (parenthesis are mine):
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye (turn or burn?), and believe the gospel.

reply to post by DINSTAAR

are quick to judge others

What are they judging?
Smoking? (permitted in the Bible)
Drinking? (permitted in the Bible)
Sex outside of marriage? (always forbidden)

I need more details of these folks and what they "permit" and what they "DON'T permit".

reply to post by DINSTAAR

...but their own irrational ideas of what Christ is.

If you declare there are "irrational ideas of what Christ is", I need to ask you what you think (or hear) these "irrational ideas" are?

As I stated earlier, "Turn or burn" is actually a real concept/doctrine that Jesus taught.

Now...whether or not the folks who are saying this are being faithful to what the Bible says about repentance? I don't know.

So, I ask again...

What are these folks saying?

What are these "irrational ideas"?

Pretirbguy...

It's the way they say (turn or burn).. Is it said out of a hidden pride or is it said out of true concern...

Hypocrites always preach without love... they use laws and doctrines but they never use love in speech...

as for the church age ending..

" I will be with you ALL days even unto the consummation of the earth "

which means God will not leave the church he created... it will be almost overcome but not fully...



peace.

reply to post by DINSTAAR


There are some self called Christians who like to think they are of a better class of people, based on their belief.
They seem to think that they are of higher quality because they have the intellect and already pretty good nature to be real class Christians.
I have been the recipient of their condescension a few times.
They would look at me and see someone not as well off as themselves.
They would judge me as not possibly being a Christian, or at least not being able to understand, properly, the nature of my salvation.
I would be approached by said persons and given an opportunity to declare my sinful disbelief or profound ignorance.
They would become disappointed if I was able to present myself as a knowledgeable Christian.
They would have their own egos partially deflated by not being able to demonstrate, on a spiritual or intellectual level, their superiority and have to be satisfied that their only superiority lies in their material possessions.


[edit on 17-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by JesusisTruth

It's the way they say (turn or burn).. Is it said out of a hidden pride or is it said out of true concern...

Irrelevant. Paul talked about how to handle this:

Phil 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

reply to post by jmdewey60

They would look at me and see someone not as well off as themselves.
They would judge me as not possibly being a Christian, or at least not being able to understand, properly, the nature of my salvation.

I'm not sure I completely understand you here, so please permit me to make an assumption? Are you are saying that your "social status" or "wealth" isn't as 'great as theirs and thus they deem you "unworthy" or "unSAVED"?

If so, feel free to ignore them:

James 2:1-6 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize and ask that you (please?) clarify what you meant?

reply to post by jmdewey60


More:

and have to be satisfied that their only superiority lies in their material possessions.

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Paul says to withdraw yourself from such men...for they are corrupt.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Yes, wealth is a major part of it.
It gets a little involved, the implications of being poor, or whatever.
Things like having to do manual labor, to make a living.
Having to go around with "work clothes" on and not a coat and tie.
Not having a nice fresh hair cut and polished shoes.
Driving around in junker cars or having to settle for a motorcycle.
Then things get bad really fast.
Next thing you are wearing a black leather jacket and now, all of a sudden, you might as well be Satan, himself.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Yes, wealth is a major part of it.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm not entirely surprised.

I can't seem to find ANY local church that "likes me". Although I probably make a decent living, my cigarette lighter hanging from my belt buckle and work clothes...and dirty fingernails... seem to defy their idea of what makes a REAL Christian.

...but MOSTLY the (unspoken) accusation is: "Why can't you just get along with us?

MY (unspoken) answer is: The whole church (small 'c'...the assembly..not the Church, also called the Saints) has gone into APOSTASY!

When I hear errors in sermons that are definitely against the doctrine in the Bible and I point them out...I'm accused of being someone who is "prideful".

PRIDEFUL!

What Christian can STAND against that charge?

My LAST attempt to attend a local assembly:

The pastor equated 'eating one extra Twinkie' with FORNICATION!

I suppose that I SHOULD OF just stood up, right there and then, and pointed out that the CONTEXT of the Scripture used was SOLELY about 'fornication':

1 Cor 6:13-20 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

This pastor equated 'eating an extra Twinkie' as being a sin against the body...and yet verse 18 says there IS no sin against the body...except fornication!

Imagine this absurd conversation between a husband and wife:

Wife: I shouldn't have eaten that extra cookie at lunch today. I feel bad about it. I think I sinned against the Lord. (the Body)
Husband: It is 'ok', I forgive you. Oh, I did a similar thing. I had sex with the next-door neighbor.
Wife: Thank you for forgiving me for the extra cookie. Clearly your sin was no greater than mine, so I forgive you too! Are you going to eat the rest of your pie? I'm still kinda hungry even after eating my piece of pie.
Husband: Here you go, honey. Eat away! I'll won't be available for a couple of hours tomorrow, I have to...um...fix the neighbor's...um...bathtub.
Wife: MMMMM...this pie is good. Have fun at the neighbor's house!

I should have expected this...

1 Tim 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Next thing you are wearing a black leather jacket and now, all of a sudden, you might as well be Satan, himself.

If I (and my family) lived in a more temperate climate (we live in North Dakota), I'd be having one (or more) Harley-Davidson motorcycles in my garage. For now...the cost/benefit ratio can't be worked out. I'd be able to drive it only about 5 months out of every year.

"Black leather"?

Personally, I like my BROWN leather jacket. I've nothing against black, but I prefer the brown.

And 'yes', I've had a motorcycle license since I was 15 (about 28 years or so...).

I had a really nice brown Jacket, years ago.
My friend gave it to me and it was from his father who was a military pilot.
So, it was not a reproduction aviator's jacket but a for real gov issue.
I was an all-weather motorcyclist, (easy in Southern California and Florida) and had three old British bikes and tryed to always have at least one running.(BSA 500 twin and a 441 Victor single, a Norton Interstate that I replaced the tank, seat and fenders and made it into a Commando)
A little off topic but right now I can not afford even to pay for insurance to drive my car.
The point is, if you look a certain way, eventually you get people who see you and think that you need to be saved.
My church is full of people who consider them selves "professionals".
The only other non professional person there got fed up and quit.
He was the only person who acted like he was my friend.
They did not mind putting us to voluntarily work on the church expansion project but treated us like slaves, or something.
Not exactly, but it did not earn me any Browne points.
Anyway, they are all set with retirement accounts and feel pretty good about themselves.
I have had to deal with this my whole life, hearing people talk among them selves, "He certainly could not be a Christian."

reply to post by jmdewey60


Emphasis mine:

Anyway, they are all set with retirement accounts and feel pretty good about themselves.

So...are 'they' are obeying what Jesus said here(?):

Matt 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

jmdewey60, In the minimal amount of time I've had to converse with you, you have described how OTHERS describe Christians. I purpose (suggest) that you allow Jesus to describe Christians:

Matt 7:21-27 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Thanks for the Bible lesson.
Do you think there is something wrong with me?
Just wondering.
If there is, feel free to criticize me.
I could be completely deranged, for all I know.
I am sort of a miss-fit.
I have always been that way.
I had to face a lot of hostility from birth.
I come from a family of seven children and had to face a lot of sibling rivalry.
I was blamed for everything bad that happened to my family.
So, I might have a complex or something.
I do not spend time feeling resentful.
I am pretty happy to be alive and accept the fact that some people will always judge me.
I like to make posts on this forum because I was kind of forced by friends who think like me but are not exactly any good at dealing with the INTERNET.
So I have to be the voice of the last hold-outs to the traditional Faith of Our Fathers.
The world is quickly being sucked into a whirlpool of evil and there are certain key, fundamental beliefs necessary to keep you out of the pit.
As for your instructional post, Yes I believe that I can not present any works of my own to gain salvation.
That is something that is out of my hands.
That is the only way that the Salvation thing can work.
If it was up to us, we would mess it up, 100% of the time.
When I say Salvation by Faith, I do not mean that we are saved, individually, because our faith caused our salvation.
Salvation by faith is that we have to have faith that our salvation has already been taken care of, for us, and completely apart from anything we have done.
We have to live on the knife's edge, trusting in the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice, and knowing the uncertainty of the ultimate outcome.
Kind of a paradox.
Believing we are saved, but at the same time knowing that we may not be saved.
We have to be a living sacrifice.
Good luck with that.
Kind of like, trash your life, for Jesus.
Not really but we have to be prepared to do it, if it was necessary.
Practically, that does not mean to go out and look for a situation that may be fatal.
We need to be alive, to be Living.
But, we need to not have the attitude that the number one thing is to take care of your own self.
I watched a show on History Channel about the Battle of the Bulge.
One of the old veterans of the worst of it said, "If you ask all the survivors, they would all tell you that the only reason they are alive is because someone else died in their place."
So a soldier in a war has to try to stay alive to fight the enemy but they can not shrink away from the thought that saving their friends could cost their own life.


[edit on 22-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Yes, the church has gone to hell (figurativley speaking) I believe we are in the last days of the fourth church mentioned in the book of revelation

Revelation 3:1-6 (The fourth church, Sardis)
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

PreTribGuy, you have some good verses there concerning "Prosparity Preaching", I suppose you oppose this teaching? What are your views on the pastor taking the tithe? Any more verses concerning prosparity preaching?

-Jimmy