Death Penalty where do you stand?

Ok, I questioned my belief tonight for the fist time because of this article. Questioning and changing it however is two different things. I’m a believer in the death penalty of known murders not questionable ones but known ones.

Maybe something you will say will help me in my decision to stay for the death penalty or to say life in prison.

Dying Manson follower seeks early release

Former Manson family member Susan Atkins, who confessed to killing pregnant actress Sharon Tate during a murderous rampage in 1969, has requested a "compassionate release" from prison because she has less than six months to live. Atkins, 60, was convicted in the 1969 slayings of actress Sharon Tate and four others. She had been incarcerated at the California Institution for Women in Corona, California.......

Atkins, known within the Manson family as "Sadie Mae Glutz," has been in prison since 1971 and has been denied parole 11 times.

According to historical accounts of the murders, Atkins stabbed Tate, who was 8½ months pregnant, and scawled the word "pig" in blood on the door of the home the actress shared with director Roman Polanski......

Sharon Tate and three houseguests were slain in August 1969 by killers who burst into her Benedict Canyon home. A teenager who was visiting the home's caretaker in his cottage on the property also was killed.....

Atkins, like Manson, received a death sentence, and the punishment was changed to life in prison when the California Supreme Court ruled the state's death penalty unconsitutional in 1972.....

According to her Web site, Atkins is a born-again Christian who during her incarceration has worked to aid at-risk youth, victims of violent crimes and homeless children.

Ok see that last Paragraph that is why I am questioning my belief on the death penalty. Had the death penalty stayed, she would of possibly died years ago and may never been born-again Christian. However, the stay of execution has given her a chance to be forgiven by God and do work for Him.

Maybe you can shed some light on this subject with me.


News Source

It all comes down to whether you believe in free will or destiny. You're trying to justify something based on what if's, but what if she didn't come to God? What if you stayed all executions because there might be a chance.

The bottom line is everyone will die, whether you are on death row or on the outside living in a convalescent home. The real question seems to me to be whether we choose God or God chooses us. If the latter is true, then everything is safe and all who are meant to be with him will be with him, no matter if they are going to be executed or not. Remember, not one of his sheep is truly lost.

The problem is you need to understand that not all of the flock are sheep, and only the good shepherd knows for sure which sheep are of the fold. Even the sheep do not know.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by ben91069]

Ok, that was different. Still thinking about it though. I will also think some more on what you have said.

I never ever use to think that a known murder should live. To be honest I have always said death right way, not 20 years later.

Originally posted by Shar
Ok see that last Paragraph that is why I am questioning my belief on the death penalty. Had the death penalty stayed, she would of possibly died years ago and may never been born-again Christian. However, the stay of execution has given her a chance to be forgiven by God and do work for Him.

Wait a minute, so you're starting to think you're against the death penalty for this woman because she's a born-again Christian and not because she's working to aid at-risk youth? So if it was an atheist instead of a "born-again Christian", whatever that means, you'd cross your fingers for the death penalty?

Wow, you're a piece of work.

What if she was a born-again Christian and had already murdered three other inmates but believed devoutly in Jesus?

Originally posted by Shar
Ok, that was different. Still thinking about it though. I will also think some more on what you have said.

I never ever use to think that a known murder should live. To be honest I have always said death right way, not 20 years later.

Well, agreed that execution should be swift, look at how bad we are at getting the right person? There's a lot to be desired from the criminal justice system.

However, we are also taught not to get caught up in trivial arguments. To me, this means judging by a worldy standard on what is right or wrong. Perhaps we need to place ourselves out of our own bodies and role play what it would be like to think like a creator in these cases. If we truly did that, we would probably come up with a more honest conclusion about whether someone deserves to live or die. For example, everyone is God's child. If you understood that from a parents perspective and applied it to how God must feel about a person who is a murderer, it probably makes it difficult to judge that person if you truly feel like they are one of your own offspring.

How many parents would let a state execute their child instead of giving them life without parole?

I think if your concern is truly Gods will -as a few of the posters have said- then you have to go with "thall shall not kill" period. But matters of state and personal behavior are not quite the same thing are they? Being a human being I really don't have any personal issue dropping someone like a Jefferey Dahmer like a fly. A known serial killer that ate his victims - ok kill him no problem - but as a Christian I have to believe that even he can find redemption in God.

Funny thing is Dahmer did not get the death penalty in Court but another inmate took him out while in jail.

What if she was a born-again Christian and had already murdered three other inmates but believed devoutly in Jesus?

See this statement is a contradiction and patently absurd. Someone that truly "believed devoutly" in Jesus would not kill.

[edit on 6/14/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Shar

Ok, I questioned my belief tonight for the fist time because of this article. Questioning and changing it however is two different things. I’m a believer in the death penalty of known murders not questionable ones but known ones.

Maybe something you will say will help me in my decision to stay for the death penalty or to say life in prison.

If murder is wrong in your view, isn't executing somebody the same thing?

What do you mean by "questionable murders?" Do you mean just because a murder hasn't made the national spotlight that it is questionable? What about a guy who drinks and drives and commits vehicular homicide? Do they deserve the death penalty?

Murder is murder, whether by a homicidal maniac, or an executioner paid by the government.

Clearly the 10 commandments are spiritual in nature. Thou shall not kill is straightforward on the surface, yet Moses killed the Egyptian and was not condemned for it. Therefore, it must be obvious that it isn't a hard and fast rule but has a deeper meaning.

Christ said, that if anyone lusts after a woman in his heart he has committed adultery and that if a man hates his brother he is in danger of hell fire. So we are shown that the act is predicated by the thought or belief. A murderer is not merely a person who kills another but one who truly hates another person for whatever reason to the point that they think they should not be one with the promises of God unless they change their ways or appearances. To me, that is a murderer because you say in your heart that you would like to destroy the life that God has made. Christians should think of that when they loosely believe and hope that others should burn in hell for their ways. There is no love in it, but they have become murderous in their hearts.

I'm mixed on capitol punishment. I feel that some crimes that people commit are so bad that they should be put to death for.

On the other hand, when you really think about it, it is sending the wrong message to the public.

What the message Capitol Punishment sends is, that there is a line which can be crossed when it comes to murder. That man can make judgement on a persons life. With this being the case, I'm sure some feel that not only a court of law should be able to make that judgement, therefore they should help the process along buy making that judgement themself.

It's simple. There should be no line that can be crossed. Murder is murder no matter how justified it is and who or how many people decide it. A jury of twelve people convicting a man and then he is judged to die is just a modern day linching!

I rarely speak in absolutes, but this is one issue I have firmly found my footing.

I oppose the death penalty 100% of the time. As oppose to the death penalty, an individual should face an actual life long sentence with absolutely no chance of parole. If by some stroke of luck an individual were to live until the ripe old age of three hundred, he or she should still not have an opportunity at parole.

It is cheaper to house an individual in a prison for over forty years than it is to execute them.

It's not cheaper, it is no secret that our system is flawed and from time to time convicts an innocent man or woman. A life sentence can be overturned, the death penalty can not.

Not to mention the hypocrisy in the fact that we're punishing a man or woman with the same act that we deemed them guilty of. Murder is wrong, even if our elected officials are the one pushing the button.

The easy out and regular response that I get is what about pedophiles, rapists, etc. But killing them is putting a band-aid on an infectious disease. We should study these individuals so we can potentially prevent the exploitation of children in the future. Extensive studies on known convicts of these acts would allow us to become more proactive than reactive.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by chissler]

reply to post by chissler


im more on that line,
let them rot in Prison, Death is an easy way out since they dont suffer like their victims,

also
from a religous point of view there is Judge but allah (when the criminal dies after being incasirated in prison he will then face judgement)

Originally posted by ben91069
Clearly the 10 commandments are spiritual in nature. Thou shall not kill is straightforward on the surface, yet Moses killed the Egyptian and was not condemned for it. Therefore, it must be obvious that it isn't a hard and fast rule but has a deeper meaning.

Wait a minute... Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because of that. Remember? Even though they had the sacrificial system for forgiveness of sins he was punished by God.

Clearly any killing is forbidden under the new covenant teachings for us as individuals. What is not as clear is are matters of State (ie Government) the same as individuals?

What Jesus taught about judging the heart. Raises the bar not lowers it.

You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder" and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, "Raca," shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, in order that your opponent may not deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you shall not come out of there, until you have paid up the last cent.

(Matthew 5:21-26 NASB)

AveMil


Point of my thread is yes, See as Christian myself I want all souls to go to heaven. Not hell. So if that means to live and by living those extra 20 years or whatever then it may been worth life in prison.

For your second question I being a believer in Jesus do not believe that a True Christian would commit murder if your following the Holy Spirit who is here to guide us.

For everyone else.

Ok I’m still out on this one. Sorry but I’m taking in all your responses and studying, thinking and pondering here.

Here is something I like to say at this point to everyone while I’m thinking.

If a murderer gets out of prison through parole or escapes and commits murder again. Like I said I’m pondering here. Get back with you guys later.

I am in favour of capital punishment in cases of torture-murder, child sex predators, and serial killers, when there is zero doubt of the suspect's guilt. I have no guilty conscience in dispatching these animals. We guarantee they will never victimize another human being.

reply to post by TheComte


But we guarantee that somebody else will.

Do you not feel that there is something to be understood from studying these individuals? Would a life of confinement in a maximum security prison and undergoing tests not prove to be beneficial?

Originally posted by chissler
But we guarantee that somebody else will.

Not necessarily. Of course, there will always be evil people but capital punishment does not guarantee them. Executing one serial killer will not turn someone else into one. Each case has to be taken on its own merits.

Do you not feel that there is something to be understood from studying these individuals? Would a life of confinement in a maximum security prison and undergoing tests not prove to be beneficial?

Yes, I do. FBI studies them so they can catch all the ones on the loose. I don't think we have to keep them around for the rest of their lives though. Especially the worst ones.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying execute every murderer. But I feel there is a place for it for perpetrators of the horrific crimes. For example, Paul Bernardo I think would be a candidate. He doesn't deserve to live the rest of his life in comfort, still getting all kinds of attention in the news. Sorry, that's disgusting to me.

[edit on 14-6-2008 by TheComte]

Originally posted by TheComte
I am in favour of capital punishment in cases of torture-murder, child sex predators, and serial killers, when there is zero doubt of the suspect's guilt. I have no guilty conscience in dispatching these animals. We guarantee they will never victimize another human being.

I think that it's easy to say this when you are not the executioner.

If everyday people had to take turns executing murderers, would you actually be able to flip a switch, inject a lethal dose, fill a chamber with gas?

I'm going to say, she needs to live out the rest of her sentence behind bars. Unfortunately, I don't understand why a change of faith would justify her early release. She already tasted freedom once and messed up by killing along the way. There may still be a chance the offender has not changed at all and I don’t know if we the society should risk the chance of letting loose those who have no remorse. But if the taxpayers simply cannot afford to keep her confined for the duration of her life sentence, she should be set free to die anyway.

This discussion actually goes along very closely with another thread active right now on Biblical Law. So I may use this answer in both to tie them together.
Jesus came to fulfill the law as it pertains to salvation and our eternal souls. We no longer have to go to human priest under the law and make sacrifices of animals to cover our sins. Our sins are covered by the Blood of the Lamb of God His Son Jesus Christ. He became the ultimate sacrifice for all of us and put what were known as the gentiles on the same playing field as the Jews, God’s chosen people.
Now, with that being said, the other purpose of ‘Levitical Law’ or Moses’ Law was to be a societal structure of right and wrong as all laws are. In the case of the Old Testament Jews their law was also their religion and their religion was their law. There really was no distinction between the two.

1 Timothy 1 (King James Version)

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

In our government religion is separated from law (government), too greatly in my opinion, but there is nothing wrong with basing our laws off of Bible law. Because God gave it to us as a guide for those who do not have moral values in them and lack the ability to do the right thing on their own.
So we need laws as guidelines for everyone to know their limits and what the penalties are for over stepping those limits. That’s why our laws, and almost all other laws in the whole world, use the Ten Commandments as the cornerstone. Each country has its own laws for society, but they are all built on the basics of the Ten Commandments given to us by God.

Numbers 35 (King James Version)
29So these things shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
30Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
31Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Therefore, it appears to me that there is nothing wrong with a murderer being put to death as long as it is not just based on the word of only one witness. In other words if there is clear evidence that someone has committed a murder, then he should be put to death. If that person is a Christian and, in a moment of some type of bad judgment, kills another human being, they should have no problem with accepting the consequences of their actions. Like wise a truly repented person, who has accepted Christ in prison after taking another’s life would likely accept their punishment and trust that they would be with God afterwards.

Oh my nerves people. For the first time in my life I am questioning this. You have to understand I have always, always been for the death penalty. When someone murderers or even rapes another I said hang him. However, now I’m thinking maybe just maybe my stance on this is Over the top. Jesus said we have to be better than scribes and Pharisess. If were not the salt who is?

Matthew 5:13

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.


Matthew 5:20

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

John 16

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Ok those two verses go together don’t you think. We still must keep the commandments of God.


Exodus 20

13 Thou shalt not kill.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


See here it’s saying to give them a chance. Its not for the righteous but for the sinners.

Jesus didn’t come to the righteous He came for the sinners.

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Let me tell you a true story. I had a very dear friend whose husband was shot and killed when she was 6 months pregnant with her first child. The kid that killed him shot him in the back as he was carrying groceries into his grandmothers place. This was a 15 year old kid. Served no time and told the judge he just woke up and wanted to kill someone.

I was very upset, angry, mad, etc.. I felt like he should have been executed for this crime. However, he was not. Let go out on the streets.

God toke care of him however, 5 years to the date of my friends husbands death he has killed. Police said gang related.

This was about 17 years ago in Charleston West Virginia.

Now we also hear about this lady above who killed 5 people and yet she gets to live. What about the people who just kill, and kill and kill you know the serial killers.


Numbers 35

30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Now here it is telling us to put a murderer to death. Take no pleasure in it however.

I am still out on this one. I have more thinking to do.


I’m wondering here do we have any preacher’s or teachers of our Bible here on the Bts that can help shed some light on this with me.


I will say this I do not want to be on a jury or decide another man's fate on this. I will not do it!






[edit on 14-6-2008 by Shar]