The EU is this what you want

Ireland got to vote because any amendment to the Irish constitution requires a referendum. In 1987 a guy took action against the Irish Government which ended up meaning that any significant changes to EU treaties requires an amendment to the Irish constitution.

One thing to note with the Lisbon Treaty is that Ireland didn’t really speak their voice did they? Only half of the voting population actually turned up to vote, which means the other half weren’t really bothered what way it went.

If the EU was so evil they would of just forced it on every country without a vote – it failed a few years ago when France and the Netherlands didn’t want it – they changed parts and the name and brought it to the table again. Now Ireland doesn’t want it, so they will again change it or make a new one.

Each individual country decided how it was going to be done, a vote by the parliament or a vote by the people. Don’t blame the EU because your government passed it without your vote.

Ireland will not be kicked out of the EU. The Lisbon treaty was kind of another form of the Constitution of the EU – but amended from the previous one (see above post about making everyone happy).

They will now change something on it or bring out a new treaty with a new name and have things changed on it, so again it will make every country happy.... once every country is happy it will go ahead.

What bothered me was most people voting No in Ireland were voting No because they were told to do so and told myths and scare tactics or seen add's and posters about the evil EU and how Ireland will lose all it's rights.... without actually getting off their arses and researching it they just swallowed it all (my family Included), a lot of people didn’t even understand it and most didn’t have a reason to vote no.

Even now when you ask someone why they voted No they don’t give you a proper answer.

Mikey


[edit on 9/12/2008 by Mikey84]

this is exactly what i want, i want an end to nationalism which has destroyed countless lives, im talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions.
The EU is an experiment, and a spectacular success story on every level, im sure you can point out failures, but that is what people always concentrate on, rather than the success's, a continent that has been at war for thousands of years is now united peacefully.
The EU and any world government that is based on it ( although i think the wto is the model going to be used) will have my full support, those outside of the EU dont understand what ww1 and ww2 did to the continent, america learned different lesons form both wars than those learned by european countries, and those that are in the EU and against it have short memories and obviously fell asleep during history class, were it not for the EU the world would already be destroyed over ww3 cause when competeing against each other europeans are viscious.

Originally posted by pieman
given the fact that i'm irish, i don't really hold much faith with the whole british empire model, no matter how small it has shrunk. the english still presume to rule people that want nothing to do with them. this is wrong, fundamentally.

I'm sorry, what? The English presume to rule who now?

1)To be English is to be fround upon in your own country
2)To fly the cross in your own country is to attract charges of being a racist
3)We have had two Scottish Prime Ministers in a row
4)The Scots were also the biggest Imperialists in the Empire, go read a book
5)The Scots also asked to join the Union and we had a Scottish King thrust upon the throne as a result
6)The Scots were the ones who colonised Ireland, not the English
7)We currently subsidise the Scots, Welsh and NI people with thousands of pounds extra per head so you all can have free University, prescriptions and lower Council Tax when the English have to pay for it all
9) The English are the only ones not to have their own Parliament, as a result we have laws thrust upon us that the others won't even vote for themselves (see "Top up" fees for uni)

And you dare to say the English presume to rule over others?

The English are being bum raped by all you whiney, little provincials while at the same time you think it is quite acceptable to lay the blame of the worlds evils at our feet, yet we grumble and get on with it.

I am effing fuming..... Typical ill-informed, revisionist Irish bollocks...

EDIT: To add a couple more to the list


[edit on 9/12/08 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


A star, I honestly could not have expressed my own thoughts any better.

England and the English are conveniently blamed for all the world's ill's.
Any display of nationalism by the English is deemed smug arrogance, racist and actively discouraged whilst being positively encouraged and admired when displayed by Irish, Scots, Welsh and any other nationality.

And how an Irishman can be critical of the EU when it is EU funding which has dragged the Irish economy and infrastructure out of the 19th Century is beyond me.

And before anyone thinks I am anti-Irish I would like to point out that whilst I am a very proud Englishman, I have very recent Irish ancestry and I am a very strong believer in the British Union, we are stronger together rather than divided.

As for the EU? It is riddled to the core with corruption and is a major step in destroying nationhood and furthering the NWO agenda.

reply to post by stumason


Listen here brit boy,
Its true that it was scottish protestants that collonised ireland, but only after cromwell came in and killed half the population for being chatolic, the settelers came at the behest of the english crown who had annexed the land because of the gene known as "greedy prick" that is only present in anglos. LOL

And your wining about a system that ye set up, ye cant complain because things arnt going your way, and ye only spend one or two hundred more per person per year on scotland and wales.
Northern ireland is the big difference of expenditure but that has to do with the military rather than handouts or anything, and that is changeing, so i suggest you do your own research before you give out to someone who comes from a country whom ye have oppressed and held as virtual slaves for 800 years, but who fought you every step of the way and finally kicked yer asses and gained our independence, and its only a matter of time until the north votes and decides to come home, ye thieving feckers.
SO SHUT YOUR MOUTH YA HUN!

reply to post by Freeborn


Our economy was in the state it was directly because of the british empire who had massive tarrifs on everything irish for years and years, and we also got raped on loans given to us by your country when we were first founded.
And its very easy to give out to the EU, even if EU investment helped to boost our economy, the key word there was helped, just in case ya missed it, the biggest factors were low taxes and a highly educated workforce with cheap labour at the time.

Originally posted by Freeborn

And how an Irishman can be critical of the EU when it is EU funding which has dragged the Irish economy and infrastructure out of the 19th Century is beyond me.

I agree with this statement 100%. When I left Ireland with my family the first time (1996) it was pretty poor, everyone was on welfare and it was a miserable place to live (probably why my family left).

When I moved back, I really noticed the change, Ireland had gone from 3rd world to 1st world, people had money flowing out of their ears – I couldn’t believe it when friends would fly to New York for a weekend to do their Christmas shopping. My old house which my Mum sold in 1996 for 30 grand was on the market for 350,000! It was a bloody 2 up 2 down house. Ireland boomed hugely and was one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

This is all thanks to the EU, the EU funds, the EU freedom of movement, the Euro etc etc.

While Ireland is slowing down now, they still have plenty of money and will not suffer too much from the “recession” and will probably balance out by late next year. The most annoying part of it all is the Irish people (including my family over there) that whinge and moan about the EU and how evil it is, yet they all forget what a poor little country Ireland was.

If it wasn’t for the EU Ireland would be nowhere near the way it is today. You only have to look at the new EU countries to see that the same cycle is working again; Poland is starting to boom now with people heading back and companies setting up there, their economy rose 5% last year and is continuing to rise.... again all down to the EU.

Eventually and hopefully (will take a long time) all the EU members will balance out and you won’t see the gap there is at the moment (east poorer than the west).

Ireland needs to remember why they are where they are, short memories annoy the hell out of me.

Mikey

reply to post by Europe


Just how did England benefit by 'enslaving' Ireland?

The Republic has been in charge of it's own affairs for long enough to be responsible for the mess it found itself in, it had nothing to do with British policies.

The Republic had been no more enslaved than areas of England have, like the North East which has been exploited by southern England for just as long.

Unfortunately that is just a fact of life.

Yes it's # but ffs it happened 800years ago, deal with the here and now and stop romanticising terrorists and bigots!

The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to remain in the UK, as long as this is the case they will do.
No amount of whinging, moaning or even a resumption of The Troubles will ever alter that!

Originally posted by Europe
Listen here brit boy,
Its true that it was scottish protestants that collonised ireland, but only after cromwell came in and killed half the population for being chatolic, the settelers came at the behest of the english crown who had annexed the land because of the gene known as "greedy prick" that is only present in anglos. LOL

So, they came because of cromwell, yet at the behst of the Crown? Which is it?

Oh and calling all english "greedy pricks" isn't very nice, is it?

And your wining about a system that ye set up, ye cant complain because things arnt going your way, and ye only spend one or two hundred more per person per year on scotland and wales.

Bollocks. We didn't set it up. The Scots PM with his scottish heavy Cabinet set it up, without any consultation with the people. Oh and spending difference between England and Scotland is to the tune of £1500 per capita, not a few hundred quid. So get your facts right, although I suspect basic literacy should come before numeracy....

Northern ireland is the big difference of expenditure but that has to do with the military rather than handouts or anything, and that is changeing, so i suggest you do your own research before you give out to someone who comes from a country whom ye have oppressed and held as virtual slaves for 800 years, but who fought you every step of the way and finally kicked yer asses and gained our independence, and its only a matter of time until the north votes and decides to come home, ye thieving feckers.
SO SHUT YOUR MOUTH YA HUN!

Ha, the North won't join Ireland, seeing as the Catholics are pretty much the minority. Even during the troubles, the IRA had little public support and the Army was orignally there to protect the Catholics, but in typical, illiogical,
Irish style you turned on them.

800 years? You do realise, "hun", that that was the Normans who invaded (the same as they did the english) and they interbred, setting up Norman-Irish nobility. Also, during the vast majority of our presence there, opinion was sharply divided between the "Irish" as to wether they wanted us or not. Even in 1922, there was significant support for remaining part of the Union. You probably don't get taught that in your revionist Irish reducation though, do you? You probably get told the irish are a pure and noble race going back thousands of years. Ha....

I put "irish" into quotes as most of your major cities were founded by Vikings and the vast majority of your nobility and upper classes were Norman (also Viking in origin). So if anything, the "Irish" are a mongrel race consisting of the same people that make up the English (pre roman british, Danish and german colonisers).

Also, the military presence in NI has no bearing on central government - local government funding provisions, so do your own research you illiterate "fecker". I have actually been researching this very argument for several years and can role the facts and figures off my tongue.

reply to post by sayzaar


We don't want an EU superstate. The French do, but were the first to threaten to kick out Austria when they went Fascist. France sorted the diplomacy. Austria would have been kicked out because they could have been kicked out. A united Europe is a different situation. No Fascist state could be kicked out. The Vatican could corrupt as far as it wanted, in Machiavellan terms, of course.

Britain could not say no, the Irish walk into it to spite us, the Dutch want our tradition to throw up something and Angela Merkel despises Brown.

I do not want Austria nor the Vatican in my country. I am a witch.

reply to post by Europe


For pity's sake, you gained your independance in 1921, over 80 years ago, how the hell can you blame the UK for the plight of your economy?
Are you not masters of your own fate and destiny?
Do you realise how pitiful you sound, accept resonsibility and stop blaming other people.

And you call us 'Brits' whingers???

I thought you were proud of the union? so why does the fact there have been two consecutive scottish prime ministers matter exactly? As far as i can tell gordon brown is a strong supporter of the union...plus there has only been three or four scottish PM's ever.But ill agree about the inequality of money per head etc

reply to post by Freeborn


The english navy which ruled the world was built from trees stolen from ireland, we used to be 80% forrest now were like 2%, so that one thing ye have benefited from, another would have to be the food that we grew to feed england, did you know that during the irish famine there was more than enough food to go around to feed everyone but the english demanded that the food go to them instead, another would be really cheap labour, irish people have sufered institutionalized racism at the hands of the english for generations,
And this stuff didnt HAPPEN 800 years ago it was HAPPENING for 800 years, huge difference there my friend.

Originally posted by redled

I do not want Austria nor the Vatican in my country. I am a witch.

Don’t stress, the Vatican is not part of the EU and they have no intentions on joining (they won’t even join the UN).



Mikey


[edit on 9/12/2008 by Mikey84]

reply to post by Europe


And the coal that burned in Irish fires was most probably mined in England.
And I assure you, people were exploited just as much in England, Wales and Scotland as they were in Ireland.
The ruling classes in Ireland were as much a party to this as those in England.

Stop romanticising pre-Cromwellian Ireland as some sort of idyllic land of milk and honey.
The majority of Irish people were little better than serfs and the fact that they had new masters made absolutely no difference to the quality of their lives, it was crap before and it was crap afterwards.
Stop romanticising the struggles Irish people have had.

Stumason has given you a brief lesson on REAL Irish history, if you don't believe him, go away and have a good look yourself, but with an open and honest mind instead letting romantic notions of the plight of the Irish people cloud your judgement.

[edit on 9/12/08 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Solomons


Actually, there has been somewhere close to 14 Scottish PM's since 1800.

And I am pro-Union. I was illustrating the fact that the English get the bum rap for everything, but there has been ample involvement from the other "oppressed" nations who get of scot (pardon the pun) free.

Freeborn say's it right when he states that we were all being oppressed and downtrodden for centuries. It's not as if us "English", as a people, decided to invade anyone else, but those who were in power.

It's no coincidence that with the advent of full suffrage in the Uk came devolution and, in Eire's case, independence. Once the people actually got their say, you got your way.

But it still stands now that the English are the only home nation not to have it's own Government. Exactly how is that illustratative of the English being the oppressors?

Originally posted by stumason


So, they came because of cromwell, yet at the behst of the Crown? Which is it?

No they came AFTER cromwell ya clown and AT the behest of the crown. read the post

Bollocks. We didn't set it up. The Scots PM with his scottish heavy Cabinet set it up, without any consultation with the people. Oh and spending difference between England and Scotland is to the tune of £1500 per capita, not a few hundred quid. So get your facts right, although I suspect basic literacy should come before numeracy....

Im sorry i didnt know that the scotts founded the british empire.
The difference on spending has to do with population density at least that would be my guess, unless you can show me that they get more on the dole up there.

Ha, the North won't join Ireland, seeing as the Catholics are pretty much the minority. Even during the troubles, the IRA had little public support and the Army was orignally there to protect the Catholics, but in typical, illiogical,
Irish style you turned on them.

The catholics are a minority but have a far higher birth rate and there at 40% and climbing, and this is true that the army originally came to protect the catholics from the abusive protestants in power but this soon changed when the british army started killing catholics on the street.

800 years? You do realise, "hun", that that was the Normans who invaded (the same as they did the english) and they interbred, setting up Norman-Irish nobility. Also, during the vast majority of our presence there, opinion was sharply divided between the "Irish" as to wether they wanted us or not. Even in 1922, there was significant support for remaining part of the Union. You probably don't get taught that in your revionist Irish reducation though, do you? You probably get told the irish are a pure and noble race going back thousands of years. Ha....

I fully realise and acknowledge most of what you are saying, but you not being irish you dont know what hun means here, it is a derogatory term for british, and in 1922 there was support for staying part of the empire just not enough obviously. And our students out perform english students every day of the week.
And no one has mentioned anything about irish people being pure or noble or anything like that, no one but you that is.

I put "irish" into quotes as most of your major cities were founded by Vikings and the vast majority of your nobility and upper classes were Norman (also Viking in origin). So if anything, the "Irish" are a mongrel race consisting of the same people that make up the English (pre roman british, Danish and german colonisers).

Ah so according to your logic ye must be roman! because they founded a lot of cities in britain, or are ye actually irish because we built all yer modern cities, and the normans replaced most of the ruling class of both english and irish societies not the vast underclasses. and it is proven that IRISH dna is distinct throughout most of europe, meaning we have remained virtually unchanged (despite all the stuff you mentioned) for 10000 years www.insideireland.com...

ya hun

reply to post by Europe


The Irish famine was caused because your entire nation fed itself off one staple crop. When that failed, you guy's where buggered.

Oh, our forests were all chopped down too for the Navy and the Longbows. I miss them too, but stuff happens and it's hardly the English peoples fault, is it? It's the same rich bastards who scrweded you over that have been screwing us over too. Stop blaming us and direct it to where it should be aimed at.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Europe

 

The Irish famine was caused because your entire nation fed itself off one staple crop. When that failed, you guy's where buggered.

Oh, our forests were all chopped down too for the Navy and the Longbows. I miss them too, but stuff happens and it's hardly the English peoples fault, is it? It's the same rich bastards who scrweded you over that have been screwing us over too. Stop blaming us and direct it to where it should be aimed at.

First off the famine was as bad as it was because the food that was grown on the plantations was still going to england, the people at the time had no land as it was all stolen from them by the english, what little land they had they could only grow potatoes on it because you cant grow enough corn on a tenth of an acre to feed a family.
Thats the funny thing about attrocities, its never the peoples fault is it, i mean the german people had nothing to do with hitler, the german army was full of robots not german people.
Stop trying to shift the blame and accept it.

reply to post by Europe


Yes, 40% of the population of Northern Ireland are Catholic, yet still the vast majority of residents of Northern Ireland wish to remain within the Union.
Simple reasoning thus tells us that the majority of Northern Irish Catholics also wish for Northern Ireland to remain within the Union.