Did Jesus exist?

Jesus Christ is a golden gun. A tool of violent oppression, used by the controlling class for profit, control, public and military morale, scapegoating and power.

Originally posted by Nihilist Freak
Jesus Christ is a golden gun. A tool of violent oppression, used by the controlling class for profit, control, public and military morale, scapegoating and power.

And your examples/proofs are?

(please keep them on the teachings of Christ, not what self-serving governments did with them)

Hope this helps, I am working on getting a link to the site it came from, I just saved the text.

Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus recorded information pertaining to Jesus, thus removing the only supporting source for His existence as being in the New Testament. In 115 A.D., Tactius wrote about the great fire in Rome, "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberious at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths, Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

It is believed by some scholars that Tactius gained his information about Christ from official records, perhaps actual reports written by Pilate. Tactius also wrote about the burning of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Christians are mentioned as a group that were connected with these events. "All we can gather from this reference is that Tactius was also aware of the existence of Christians other than in the context of their presence in Rome," states Habermas. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, wrote, "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City." Chrestus is a variant spelling of Christ. Suetonius refers to a wave of riots that broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city.

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. "...he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." He also wrote, "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." These historical writings predated the Old Testament. Josephus died in 97 A.D.

Before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus, Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the "deity" proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.

Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A..D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles. Emperor Tiberius acted on Pilate's report, according to Tertullian, to the Roman Senate. "Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians."

For some reason I couldn�t edit a link into my last post...strange.

Anyway, here it is. It was under this site, an article called Proving the Historic Jesus. It doesn�t seem to be there anymore, or at least the religion link is down or something, but I can post the entire article if anyone wants it.

Originally posted by saint4God
DontTreadOnMe, would historical proof make the decision for you whether or not to believe in Jesus?

Sorry it took so long to reply. This is quite a voice from posts past

I have decided that Jesus did exist. The next hurdle is whether or not he is as the Catholic Church, and later Protestants, rewrote history, to suit their religious control. That is probably the biggest question:
Jesus did exist, but how does his real life differ from that which we have been told. Please remember, history is written by those in control. And, in this case it is the Roman Catholic Church.

And to answer your question:
Yes, and several posters, including cavscout and Logician have provided some historical information.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

The Jesus of history is much different to myth that has been created surrounding him. The account we have from the the chuch and Hollywood have become a farce, try and find one mention in the Bible of Jesus being born in a stable...

You can't cause there isn't one...

The real Jesus was a Judean prince, deposed by the romans, and backed by an influencial group of activists including prominent members of the Abaithar, Zadock preisthoods and the Samaritan Magi (remember the three wise men), he tried to unite jews and gentiles together to throw off the Roman oppression. He cheated death on the cross, and later had a family with his wife Mary Magdelene, he missioned across the ancient world eventually following in the footsteps of Phillip settling in India where he is remembered as the Prophet Isa by the muslims, he died in Srinigar where his tomb is still venerated today...

He was a husband, a father, a visionary, a teacher, a healer and a leader of men...

He was a great man who never deserved to have his life turned into some kind of weird sideshow...

Why can't people have a little respect...

Hey, FG, any links to this or is this your opinion. I'd be interested in reading the sources where you got these conclusions. (sorry, bad English, )

Yes, plenty... but a depressingly large amount of transcription is required to cite references...

The most concise reference to this story is "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" by distinguished historian Laurence Gardiner.

Laurence Gardner is a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries, and a Professional Member of the Institute of Nanotechnology. Distinguished as the Chevalier de St. Germain, he is a constitutional historian, a Knight Templar, and is Presidential Attach� to the European Council of Princes. In the artistic domain, Laurence has been Conservation Consultant to Britain's Fine Art Trade Guild, and is currently involved in Los Angeles movie production. In the world of music and the performing arts, he has written and produced for the musical stage, and his libretto compositions have been performed at London's Royal Opera House, Covent Garden. Laurence's writing career has included collaborative projects with national institutions such as the British Tourist Association, the National Parks Authority, The Queen's Bays Regimental Museum, the Government of Ontario and the Russian Ministry of Culture.

Check out his web page, at

www.graal.co.uk...

and his lecture notes on Karen Lyster's website,

www.karenlyster.com...

I will get to work on a detailed response of the points I have made...

Quote: "The Jesus of history is much different to myth that has been created surrounding him. The account we have from the the chuch and Hollywood have become a farce, try and find one mention in the Bible of Jesus being born in a stable...

You can't cause there isn't one...

The real Jesus was a Judean prince, deposed by the romans, and backed by an influencial group of activists including prominent members of the Abaithar, Zadock preisthoods and the Samaritan Magi (remember the three wise men), he tried to unite jews and gentiles together to throw off the Roman oppression. He cheated death on the cross, and later had a family with his wife Mary Magdelene, he missioned across the ancient world eventually following in the footsteps of Phillip settling in India where he is remembered as the Prophet Isa by the muslims, he died in Srinigar where his tomb is still venerated today...

He was a husband, a father, a visionary, a teacher, a healer and a leader of men...

He was a great man who never deserved to have his life turned into some kind of weird sideshow...

Why can't people have a little respect..."

DontTreadOnMe - Can't you see that this is the ROOT of THE CONSPIRACY? Are you not amazed by the sheer number of people that want to put words into Jesus' Mouth & Define his Actions & Intentions. Jesus has Pharaoh like Authority - hence the desire to Twist & Distort. The Battle is for the very DEFINITION of the "Christian Religion" & with it comes Tremendous Power - just look at the U.S. Presidential Election we just had!!!

U.S. "Christians" have "Perceived" G. W. Bush to be one of them -a "Christian" - so they Voted for him & gave him the Election by 2% of the Popular Vote - Bush is now Euphoric & calling this a "Mandate" for his Agenda!!!

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Can't you see that this is the ROOT of THE CONSPIRACY? Are you not amazed by the sheer number of people that want to put words into Jesus' Mouth & Define his Actions & Intentions. Jesus has Pharaoh like Authority - hence the desire to Twist & Distort.

Without getting into current events , I will say it makes me truly wonder how much of the real Jesus exists. I went from being Catholic, to thinking he didn't live, to finally believing his existence.
But, the thing now is Does any of Jesus survive the religion made around him? It seems to me that Jesus would not apporve of all the politics, pomp and materialism of the Catholic Church. Another little problem I see is Catholicism and Christianity seem to think they have the key to the kingdom of heaven. As if all the other religions have no clue as to how to worship their jigher power or live a good life. sheesh.

People say that no historian ever wrote of Jesus, but has anyone considered the possibility that Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. are the historians who wrote about him? Has it ever crossed their mind that the New Testament may be the historical record?

[edit on 28-11-2004 by rosepetal]

Good Call on that Web Site Flange Gasket!!!

Quote: "At that time, the Jews had never heard of Jehovah; they Worshipped the Goddess Asherah and their Spiritual Leaders were largely Female. Indeed, Miriam posed such a problem for Moses in his attempt to create a new environment of male dominance that he imprisoned her, whereupon the Israelites rose up against Moses to secure Miriam's release. This is in the book of Jasher, but it is not in the Bible."

Just this would probably be enough to Pop the Eyes out of the Orthodoxy�s Heads. WOW you mean the Jews Worshipped the GODDESS ASHERAH (i.e. Astarte) at one point. Believe it my friends. There has been LOTS & LOTS & LOTS of Pro-Phallus & Anti-Feminine conditioning in Mainstream Religion over the Years. As we see some of Jesus' most Important Disciples that Surrounded him in Life were WOMEN. It you ask me the
"Holy Spirit" is Feminine in Character!!!

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

The general consenus amongst most scholars, archeaologists, and historians is that Jesus Christ did exist. Archaeologists are constantly digging up new clues that support this idea. Most recently, a tomb was unearthed, insribed with the words, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Archaeologists believe this tomb to belong to the brother of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Reverie
The general consenus amongst most scholars, archeaologists, and historians is that Jesus Christ did exist. Archaeologists are constantly digging up new clues that support this idea. Most recently, a tomb was unearthed, insribed with the words, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Archaeologists believe this tomb to belong to the brother of Jesus Christ.

Ok...I'm sick of all this.
'Jesus' is not a Jewish, nor Roman name. IF he (the man to which you inquire) existed, his name would have been Iosus (sp?) in Greek or Yeheshua (Joshua in English) in Hebrew. So anything that is inscribed 'Jesus' is obviously hoaxed. I'm not saying he didn't exist, but if he did, it wasn't under the alias JESUS.
As for Christ, it means annointed, kings had been giving themselves this title for years. It was applied to Paul's invention (Yeheshua [Jesus]) to make him sound more holy.

Originally posted by sentiencedesign

Ok...I'm sick of all this.
'Jesus' is not a Jewish, nor Roman name. IF he (the man to which you inquire) existed, his name would have been Iosus (sp?) in Greek or Yeheshua (Joshua in English) in Hebrew. So anything that is inscribed 'Jesus' is obviously hoaxed. I'm not saying he didn't exist, but if he did, it wasn't under the alias JESUS.
As for Christ, it means annointed, kings had been giving themselves this title for years. It was applied to Paul's invention (Yeheshua [Jesus]) to make him sound more holy.

Aside from which the Ossuary has been declared a hoax, the owner/founder Oded Golan so indicted. He has quite a past for creating fake antiquities.

of course he existed- its in the history books dingle berry

Originally posted by Slicky1313
of course he existed- its in the history books dingle berry

No he's not...there is no history of him other than the bible..none. Did he exist? Yes I think he did, but I don't think he died on the cross and he most certainly did not want to start a religion at all!

It seems like either information was suppressed or else there the little information there was was left intentionally ambiguous so that it could be taken advantage.

Well, that's well supported. Earlier in this thread, one mentioned Roman records of his brother James, etc. But, to protect the divinity of Jesus' birth, the idea of his mother and father having additional children in the normal fashion, simply didn't help to contribute to the wonder of the tale, so he was omitted. Funny though, that in order to use these references to support the existence of Jesus, you'd then also have to acknowledge the existence of James, hehe...

Here's an interesting thought...

Many modern magic tricks rely on a very simple concept....a twin.
Example, you put a woman in a box, and she vanishes under the stage. Then, from a box hanging high overhead, suddenly, her twin emerges! Tada!!!! I've often wondered if Jesus and James were perhaps twins... Many of the "miracles" (aside from healing, unless they employed other twins or tricks), could likely be done this way, even the resurrection... Intriguing idea anyhow... Wow, what power such a trick would have back then...

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Slicky1313
of course he existed- its in the history books dingle berry

Slicky, you've got a lot to learn...and a lot of ignorance to deny.
Just because something is in a history book or the six o'clock news doesn't make it fact.
Many would argue just because it is in the bible doesn't make it fact either.

Lady V, I agree with your thoughts. Especially about whether or not he wanted a religion built around him. Somehow, I think not

I don't know wether Christ wanted his own religion, but I have to refute the idea that the only written record of his life was in the Bible...

See Cavscouts research on this page, particularly in regards to Flavius Josephus, I am currently reading 'Josephus:the essential works' in which Jesus is discussed from Josephus's own accounts from biblical times....