shoot out in space?

So we have heard that a dead US spy satellite is to be shot down my the military soon. US to blast satellite after space shuttle leaves. They say it poses a danger to the people of Earth. But remember when U.S. official: Chinese test Missile obliterates satellite. The reaction from the United States to that was:

"The U.S. believes China's development and testing of such weapons is inconsistent with the spirit of cooperation that both countries aspire to in the civil space area," National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe said yesterday. "We and other countries have expressed our concern regarding this action to the Chinese." Source

So it's no surprise that the real concern was that the US was behind in the space weapon technology. What's funny is how it is being played off as some kind of humanitarian act.

Now as a strategic move, wouldn't it now make sense that China, who has already proven it can, go ahead and shoot the satellite down before the US. Since the US is using is issuing a broad warning that the satellite could come down in anyone's backyard; it therefore would be a danger to Chinese citizens.

Would the act be viewed as hostile?



[edit on

Now I recall satellites re-entering the atmosphere before and I don't recall any damage before, though I may be wrong. The concern seems to be that the fuel that is stored in the tank (Hydrazine) will disperse and and cause some folks to have to seek medical attention if inhaled.

To me, and I am not a rocket scientist, I would think that the heat from re-entry would burn the rocket fuel right up.

Originally posted by smarteye
The concern seems to be that the fuel that is stored in the tank (Hydrazine) will disperse and and cause some folks to have to seek medical attention if inhaled.

To me, and I am not a rocket scientist, I would think that the heat from re-entry would burn the rocket fuel right up.

I would have thought the same thing. I still DO think it. This whole thing just plain stinks is what.

Do you suppose that USA 193 just might have an "alternative" power source that the general public is not to be privy to?

reply to post by cbianchi513

Exactly! How often do they send satellites up and "oops", they don't work. No back-up communication plan on these billion dollar satellites. They make it sound like a big school bus filled with rocket fuel is just floating around waiting to shower a few people with gas. What do they have to hide and destroy?

Maybe they never lost contact, sounds like some dis-info related to the espionage game. It could be that the Chinese disabled it using their new anti-satellite laser tech. Either way, this some sort of weapons race and the truth isn't ever so simple.

Satellite security is now so vital to national security and world economy; a few well targeted missiles could cripple things. There is a lot more to this. I predict that the Chinese get to it before us in a show of force.

Not to many thoughts on the subject from ATS members. It appears that the Russians have similar concerns and questions:

MOSCOW, Feb 16 (Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry said on Saturday a U.S. plan to shoot down an ailing spy satellite could be used as a cover to test a new space weapon.
"In our opinion, the decision to destroy the U.S. satellite is not as harmless as it is being presented. Especially as the United States has been avoiding talks on restricting a space arms race for quite a long time," the ministry's information department said in a statement.

source

With the space shuttle in space why not have it pick up the satelite and bring it home or just repair it. so much better than blowing up billions of dollars.

Something smells bushy(stinks very bad) about this.

reply to post by Nailer
With the space shuttle in space why not have it pick up the satelite and bring it home or just repair it.

I'm starting to think that the shuttle might be up there to assist in what ever they intend to do. If the re-entry of this satellite is of such concern, then the shuttle mission would have been delayed. Rather it seems that they are in the right place at the right time to assist.

WASHINGTON -- Long before the public learned in late January that a damaged U.S. spy satellite carrying toxic fuel was going to crash to Earth, the government secretly assembled a high-powered team of officials and scientists to study the feasibility of shooting it down with a missile.
source

Also

NASA will make landing sites in California as well as Florida available to the space shuttle Atlantis on Wednesday to hasten its return to Earth before the Pentagon attempts to shoot down a rogue spy satellite. source

So this is well planned already and if the shuttle is there to assist with this than it isn't simply a missile being fired.

reply to post by cbianchi513
Do you suppose that USA 193 just might have an "alternative" power source that the general public is not to be privy to?

Well the Tehran Times is reporting:

MOSCOW (RIA Novosti) -- Russia’s Defense Ministry is closely monitoring a U.S. spy satellite that has gone out of control and may have nuclear material on board, a high-ranking defense source said on Friday.

Tehran Times article

So another question raised is why such satellites aren't equipped with self destruction devices. Being that it is a military satellite and considering the planning that is involved, why not install such devices on all satellites in the event of re-entry. They're saying it will cost like 60 million dollars to shoot the sucker down...hmmm. Then again, that would require a back-up communication device to relay the self-destruction order and if they had that this big expensive clay pigeon would be a working satellite.

I thought you had to be smart to plan missions at NASA.

Originally posted by Nailer
With the space shuttle in space why not have it pick up the satelite and bring it home or just repair it. so much better than blowing up billions of dollars.

Something smells bushy(stinks very bad) about this.

The Space Shuttle has a limited supply of fuel for the Orbital Maneuvering System (OMS), which limits its ability to match orbits with other bodies in space (as one example, a Shuttle sent up to the Hubble Telescope won't be able to match orbits with the International Space Station...so if something goes catastrophically wrong, they won't be able to evacuate to the ISS. It's very likely that the same OMS fuel limit (more correctly, a Delta-V limit) means that Atlantis can't match orbits with the spy-sat. Believe me, if the government could save the hardware, they would, if for no other reason than to dissect it in an effort to find out what caused the malfunction.

reply to post by smarteye


There's nothing in what you posted to indicate that the Space Shuttle is on-orbit to 'assist' in shooting down the spy satellite. NASA wants the Shuttle down as a precautionary measure...when the satellite is hit, there will be a lot of shrapnel generated. Until they have a better idea of what orbit it's going to wind up in, they want their expensive orbiter well away from it all...and they certainly don't want to risk FOD just before re-entry. Think of this as the orbital / Shuttle version of parking your car under cover before a hailstorm.

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer
There's nothing in what you posted to indicate that the Space Shuttle is on-orbit to 'assist' in shooting down the spy satellite.

While this is true, I am making an assumption based on the fact that the government began planning the shoot down before the shuttle went up. I understand that the shuttle mission too, was planned long before. I have pointed out several things that should raise suspicion about the current events. Can you honestly rule out that the shuttle isn't somehow involved?

My main curiosity is the idea that China may take a shot at the satellite first in "self-defense." This is way more than what is being portrayed. These are the first shots of space-warfare.

Originally posted by smarteye
reply to post by Brother Stormhammer
There's nothing in what you posted to indicate that the Space Shuttle is on-orbit to 'assist' in shooting down the spy satellite.

 

While this is true, I am making an assumption based on the fact that the government began planning the shoot down before the shuttle went up. I understand that the shuttle mission too, was planned long before. I have pointed out several things that should raise suspicion about the current events. Can you honestly rule out that the shuttle isn't somehow involved?

My main curiosity is the idea that China may take a shot at the satellite first in "self-defense." This is way more than what is being portrayed. These are the first shots of space-warfare.

I took a closer look at the Star-Telegram article that you linked to. They need a new editor. Pardon me if that sounds a bit harsh, but basic fact-checking is an editor's job, and it wasn't done prior to publication of that piece. For one, the USS Lake Erie (CG-70) wasn't "outfitted with modified Aegis anti-missile systems" in "a matter of weeks" since January 4 of this year, as the article does its best to imply. She's been testing anti-missile doctrine and hardware since 1995. That's not a minor error to make, particularly since the actual information on the Lake Erie is fairly public.

Casting aside my naval nitpicking, a quick look at the tests the Lake Erie has been performing for the last several years should be enough to prove that the Space Shuttle isn't involved in this shoot-down attempt. It's certainly not needed for target tracking, nor for missile guidance...the Lake Erie has proven to be more than capable of those tasks without any orbital help whatsoever (other than using GPSS for navigational fixes). The Shuttle's also not needed for payload launching...once again, the missiles used should be more than adequate...and even if they aren't, where, exactly, would NASA have hidden a kinetic-kill interceptor in the Shuttle's cargo bay? Not only was it already crowded in there with the Columbus module, there have been hours of video showing the bay from just about every angle during the ISS construction mission. We also don't need the Shuttle involved for post-strike damage assessment...that's what all of those ground-based telescopes and airborne observatories will be doing. What mission does that leave for the Shuttle to perform? I can't think of one.

Just to complicate things...it was asked in another post why NASA was worried about a tank full of hydrazine. The answer is fairly simple. Normally, a satellite either changes orientation and lets solar exposure keep its fuel from freezing, or uses electrical heating elements for the same purpose. In this case, though, neither approach was in effect due to the control problems. As a result, instead of a metal can partially full of liquid hydrazine and partially filled with vapors, which would probably blow apart very high in the atmosphere and either scatter or obliterate the contents, we have a large (according to one source, almost a half-ton) block of hydrazine ice, wrapped in a metal jacket. Thanks to the heat-sinking effect of the ice, and the protection provided by the metal fuel tank, we have an almost-perfect improvised reentry vehicle that could easily retain a fair amount of its mass until fairly low in the atmosphere. Under those conditions, it's a safer (and more environmentally friendly) bet to simply blow the thing to scrap as far up as possible. Hydrazine is *not* fun to play with.

reply to post by smarteye


Why bother with all that anyway? We watch space with radar, as do the Soviets and I assume the Chinese Communists do as well. A launch from the shuttle would be seen and tracked.

Also as stated the Lake Erie has done nothing for the last decade plus except act as the launch platform for sea based ABM trials

I love how the article says that they were trained, and the ships were modified in a matter of weeks, then says that the Lake Eerie has been shooting down missiles with the SM-3 for years.

Here are some awesome pictures of the various tests:

www.mda.mil...

reply to post by FredT


Still, it does look like people are getting used to the fact that space reflects a major part of strategic territory - We know that China did it, so they must have done it for a reason, and now the Americans are doing it.

Or of course, one could massively jump to conclusions and assume this is all some sort of multi-super-state free for all in the sky.

Realistically, it looks like both China and America are using whatever opportunity arises to practice long-range ballistics - China perhaps not so much because the U.S probably have at least 3 satellietes on them anyway, and it confused their military as to why they would only shoot one.

I wonder if the Olympic games will have a Political impact, in which case we might be seeing the emergence of a self-realised super power.

But asides from that - I'm sure everyone is prepping their ABMs for some neutral shooting, just in case something goes wrong (e.g; the american missile malfunctions).

reply to post by Zaphod58


Dude, thanx... 2004 or so I had some hi-res of Raytheon's EKV... tech's mugging with it for personal photos. Clean room. The link you gave... the last pic:

is a gen or two... well it's not the Raytheon I saw the pics of... this system seems to be able to hit more than one bird. Geez, that must complicated... it would need an encrypted uplink-downlink... hmmm. I wonder what bandwith... if one could interrupt that. Hmmm.

Remember the gun scene in Kill Bill une?

Everybody sees everybody else. Tensions rise... Stuff happens. Bet Putin has Bears in the air 24/7 over to the Aleutians. 193 in US airspace in about 10 minutes or so.

Vic

[edit on 16-2-2008 by V Kaminski]

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer

Let's say that this whole thing is a cover to hide a new weapons technology, one which is space based. Earlier I linked a story to some Chinese anti-satelite weapon tech. I have always found it hard to believe that we haven't continued ahead with a "Star Wars" program. The idea that the shuttle is involved is speculative on my part. The space race has really taken off recently, so the Chinese show off their new gear we rush to one-up them. So we aim a missile at this satellite, but before impact we blast it with particle beams are something.

reply to post by V Kaminski


They've been doing some NICE things with the SM-3 lately. They've simultaneously engaged a missile in space with the SM-3, and a cruise missile with the SM-2. They've engaged multiple missiles with SM-3s. USS Decatur became the first Arleigh Burke to launch an SM-3 and successfully shot down a target. They're 11 for 13 so far. The two misses were software and hardware related fairly early in the program.