Su-30 MKI's Forbidden To Use Radar At Red Flag

Yep, just like in the previous MKI exercises with Britain.

ndia's defence ministry has confirmed that the six Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters that will participate in "Red Flag Nellis" manoeuvres at Nellis AFB, Nevada in August 2008 will operate without using their NIIP Bars radars.

Original Link

So apparently we've still yet to see any conclusive statistics on the Bars radar. I wonder why this radar is so sensitive compared to a lot of the AESA statistics being thrown around in the West?

Well Nellis is wired to the hilt and Ill bet that they do not want to give US intel and extended look at the system. Also the Russians may have exterted influence for that very reason.

Why give away the store. The US could gains tons of info my recording the emitters.

reply to post by Darkpr0


Because these exercises are mostly never cross-culture (here culture pertaining to Eastern and western designs).

Anyways the Chinese angle in teh equation as mentioned by the article is irrelevant. The Chinese Su-30s do NOT have the N011 Bars radar, they have a lesser capable N001 radar IIRC.

I had brought this bit about MKIs not using radars at Red Flg 08 up on ATS a few months back.
Wstpt had some thoughts on it then..
I'm sure he still keeps the same opinion!

I believe this will be the first 'operational' Russian a/c participating in a Red Flag..ever..
Or have Luftwaffe MiG 29s been there..done that?

I think the Mig has been there but as far as I know, this may be the first appearance of the Su-27 series.

I cannot wait to see the write up in AWST on it. The IAF should aquit themselves well.

The matchup I would like to see is the USAF agressor squadron versus the IAF

The USAF they would be using Soviet tactics in Western aircraft verusus the IAF in Soviet aircraft using hybrid western tactics

[edit on 1/6/08 by FredT]

Originally posted by FredT

The matchup I would like to see is the USAF agressor squadron versus the IAF as they would be using Soviet tactics in Western aircraft verusus Soviet aircraft using hybrid western tactics

eh?
Didn't quite get teh jist of that!!

Who is using soviet tactics? The USAF aggressor sqns?
Because the IAF doesn't use them for sure!
I doubt the IAF has ever used Soviet flight combat tactics and doctrines ever..
The IAF and its pilots never really thought very highly of soviet tactics..

Aah!
I got what you're saying..
my bad

So how are they going to dogfight without any radars? Fire missiles and hope it hit something without any guidance? Go north or south without any clear idea where the enemy might be?

[edit on 8-1-2008 by deltaboy]

Originally posted by Darkpr0
So apparently we've still yet to see any conclusive statistics on the Bars radar. I wonder why this radar is so sensitive compared to a lot of the AESA statistics being thrown around in the West?

I am sure that the US already knows the capabilities (they can look on Wikipedia!), so I tend to take the view that it more about getting the "excuse" in before the event. The IAF performed badly because they were not using radars, etc...

Maybe the radar is just not that good, not reliable, poorly integrated or just to expensive to maintain!

Regards

The sort of `information` available on the `net is all `ball park` - same as for AESA sets around the world

what would be of interest would be the wave form of the radar pulses , the exact frequncies they operate at , the relative power to range and other such hands on data

and none of this is available on the internet

reply to post by paraphi


Aww.. you have GOT to be kidding me here!

wait are these Su-30s from china or india... cuz i know china has Su30MKK not MKI

Originally posted by deltaboy
So how are they going to dogfight without any radars? Fire missiles and hope it hit something without any guidance? Go north or south without any clear idea where the enemy might be?

They can use an external radar pod as the SU-30 allows integration of quite a few external systems within its fire control system.

They can also use an AWAC system for centralised fire control.

I would like to see if this restriction ALSO applies to other fightercraft in the arena. I know Red Flag mostly focuses on up -close and personal dogfighting and not stand-off capabilities. Using guns and heat seeking missles. I would be interested to see if this is a stipulation put ONLY on the SU-30 or is it a blanket rule that was spun in this report?

reply to post by Daedalus3

The IAF is very flexible as far as adopting tactics, they take whats useful and leave whats not. The Russians are a very bright, intelligent and ruthless lot of people, and one can be sure, their tactics are as good as it could be in any field of combat. Western propaganda toward the Russians, and a rather exaggerated hype of the capabilities of Western combat systems of all kinds tends to enamour the less knowledgeable in addition to providing publicity for economic gain. Perhaps, it is common knowledge that the Russians dont need any lessons from anyone on how to wage war, if history could be, good enough an indicator, of their resolve to fight. So once again let me say, if one underestimates the Russians, they are making a grave mistake and lastly i dont take any sides.

Exactly the same happened during the exercise with the Eurofighters about a year back.

IAF pilots participating in the UK-Indian exercise Indra Dhanush last month switched off the radars on their Sukhois to prevent secret radio frequencies from being picked up by Western military intelligence.

Asked if the radars were blocked at the request of Sukhois’ Russian designers, the source explained, “It was for a mixture of reasons. The Russians have their IPRs (intellectual property rights) and we have our concerns.”

The frequency of the Su-30 MKI fighter’s radar is jealously guarded because once disclosed it neutralises both the aircraft and its missiles.And obviously, if India is to maintain its air superiority over Pakistan — and the SU-30 is the world’s most advanced fighter bomber — it needs to make sure that Islamabad does not gain access to its radar frequencies via friendly Western governments.

www.indianexpress.com...

Originally posted by deltaboy
So how are they going to dogfight without any radars? Fire missiles and hope it hit something without any guidance?

here's one possible workaround

In fact, during Indra Dhanush, the IAF pilots’ refusal to use their radars created problems that the RAF overcame by flying its Tornado F3s alongside each of the six Su-30s.

Later, RAF commanding officer for the exercise, Wing Commander John Prescott, admitted: “It isn’t the way we normally do business. When we are working with another fighter, we would expect the pilot to use his radar for long-range targeting and to take the beyond visual range (BVR) shots as well.”

from www.indianexpress.com...

reply to post by FredT

The reason IAF is not using its radar is because its fully capable of testing its abilities without it. The US would get a strategic gain in knowledge and strategy if there was ever a war between India and Pakistan. They would have capabilities to share our techno with Pakistan and later Pakistan could develop a counter strategy with their cheap f16's against the su 30 mki but that is highly unlikely since USA is a better ally with India than Pakistan. The reason Pakistan is even an ally of US because of the war on terror and the US rather have Paki soliers die and ocntrol the Terrorists than their own soldiers so they fund billion of tax money to Pakistan. But when it comes to technology and Economics USA is dependant on India due to Outsourcing, which makes us their automatic ally, since without India, USA economy would drown even faster.

Their powerful Russian-made radar was in fact emitting, says Choudhry, but it was operating only in the training mode which limited the sensor’s range and spectrum of capabilities. In addition, the IAF wasn’t allowed to use chaff and flares to avoid being targeted by surface-to-air missiles nor did its aircraft have the common data link

Fulghum


Saw this and thought I'd add it.