Some Christians are Non-Believers

I've met a fair number of people who feel that Jesus was an intelligent human philosopher who tried to teach humanistic ethics. They follow his ethical teachings and consider themselves Christians even though they do not believe he was a god.

Of course, there are narrow minded christians who will claim that these people are not true christians. I suggest that anyone who would claim that obviously doesn't really understand what Jesus was trying to teach.
And, as such, as much as they swear they are the REAL christians, down deep they certainly are not.

Occam

Well, I suppose that my view is Arian in nature. I view Jesus as being the SON of God, as Jesus refers to himself throughout the NT... Now, is that the common "Christian" perspective? No, it's not. Most view Jesus as God in the flesh. However, I have yet to have anyone satisfactorily explain to me as to why Jesus would pray to himself.. :shk:

What about those of us who believe in God and believe in Jesus the man but do not believe that Jesus is the son of God in any different manner that we are all sons and daughters of God? Would we still be a Christian?

This is a question I have pondered myself for quite some time.

Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
What about those of us who believe in God and believe in Jesus the man but do not believe that Jesus is the son of God in any different manner that we are all sons and daughters of God? Would we still be a Christian?

This is a question I have pondered myself for quite some time.

Being a Christian means believing that Jesus Christ is the savior. He says, I am the way the truth and the life, the only way to the father is through me.

This is what the Christian faith is based on. remove Christ and you are left with Ian. I'm afraid Ian can do nothing for you.

On a curious note, how did you manage to remove Jesus from the your belief system.

Originally posted by Occam
I've met a fair number of people who feel that Jesus was an intelligent human philosopher who tried to teach humanistic ethics. They follow his ethical teachings and consider themselves Christians even though they do not believe he was a god.

Of course, there are narrow minded christians who will claim that these people are not true christians. I suggest that anyone who would claim that obviously doesn't really understand what Jesus was trying to teach.
And, as such, as much as they swear they are the REAL christians, down deep they certainly are not.

Occam

I do not think that you have to absolutely believe that Jesus is God, in order to be a christian. But good luck trying to find anyone else to agree with you, if you take that stance. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the son of god in a way that just anyone can not be. He is the son of god as in the fulfilment of God's desire to have one person to represent all mankind. God saved Jerusalem from the Assirians for the sake of his servent, David. To save the whole world would require one who was better than David, but also rightful heir to his throne, to keep God's promise that He made to David.

Oh, I dunno, Occam. When people follow the teachings of someone who had absolutely no historical evidence and was most probably not even a real person, I guess it's par for the course that nobody can agree how to follow him.

Imaginary savior = free reign on belief I suppose.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, I suppose that my view is Arian in nature. I view Jesus as being the SON of God, as Jesus refers to himself throughout the NT... Now, is that the common "Christian" perspective? No, it's not. Most view Jesus as God in the flesh. However, I have yet to have anyone satisfactorily explain to me as to why Jesus would pray to himself.. :shk:

Amen to that Speaker. I've been told, to my FACE, that if I did not believe in the Trinity I would go to Hell. This was by a professed Christian.

A belief in the Trinity came about approximately 400 years after Christ's death. I'm going by memory on this, so I could be wrong on the exact timing. However, it's become so accepted that people who do not believe in it are for the most part, condemned to Hell as well as called Heretics by Christians of today.

The interesting thing is that there are more Scriptures that support Jesus being the Son of God and not God Himself manifested as a man... and it's a "mystery" I never understood - until I found Truth. That Truth being that the falsehood of the Trinity was and IS a ploy of Satan to rob Christ of the glory due to Him for what He did for mankind.

As far as those Christians who condemn those of us who recognize Christ for who he truly was:

Matthew 7:1 [ Do Not Judge ] "Do not judge, so that you won't be judged.

Furthermore, it's not a belief in the Trinity or any religious man-made ideals that defines a true Christian or that saves, but the condition heart and a belief of Christ as Lord and Savior.

Originally posted by jon1
Being a Christian means believing that Jesus Christ is the savior.

Being a Christian is following the teachings of Christ, and trying to be Christlike.

reply to post by MajorMalfunction



That's because they are believing on the man and not on the spirit. If you believe on the latter, it makes no difference who the man was or if he even existed.

Jesus like all of us are the sons and daughters of God. Jesus became one with God by realizing what God is and Jesus became and followed that way. This is how he was still a man and God in the flesh, which we all can become. Jesus' 40 day 40 night thing was when Jesus went out in nature and observed the living God that was in him and outside him. We're not supposed to look to a book for the answers because the book isn't alive and thats why Jesus said the the Jews worshiped a dead God and he worshiped the living God and why there wasn't a bible till hunderds of years later.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by jon1
Being a Christian means believing that Jesus Christ is the savior.

Being a Christian is following the teachings of Christ, and trying to be Christlike.

I agree with you both - accepting Christ as Lord and Savior as well as what Speaker added. All of it defines a Christian.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
absolutely no historical evidence

Of course you know Flavius Josephus wrote about him even before Jerusalem fell in 70 AD.

Josephus, Antiquities 18. 63-64

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.

The of course there's that book called "The New Testament" where his apostles wrote of him. There's much literary evidence of them, mainly Paul the Apostle. Quite a number of early Roman articles cite him and his teachings. Paul as you know was quite possibly an eye-witness at the crucifixion. We have all of Paul's writings and we find where others such as Clement of Rome mention Paul in the first century. We have no reason to doubt that Pauls writings were invalid.

They follow his ethical teachings and consider themselves Christians even though they do not believe he was a god.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ ("The Anointed One")? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. - 1 John 2:22

Of course now the debate is, "Was the Anointed One, the Messiah, deity as God , or just another man. Jesus cleared this up for us, by quoting from the Old Testament concerning himself. "Before Abramam was, I Am". Clearly a normal man wouldn't have been in existance before Abraham.

Also Psalms 110

The LORD (Hebrew Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Hebrew Adon, the Messiah), Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. This passage was quoted in Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42-43, Acts 2:34-35, and in Hebrews 1:13. It clearly states that Jesus is, if not equal with God, then raised to God's level by God.

Of course I could go on and on with hundreds of more examples from scriptures but hopefully this will illustrate the point well enough.

reply to post by dbates



Not to mention the Gnostic texts which make numerous references to him. Of course, it doesn't matter because those who argue against his existence will never accept it.

Christian - following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ.

There are too many contradictions and inaccuries in the bible to cause me to believe one bit of it. Wait, Christ has been mentioned in the National Enquirer before, therefore he must be real.

reply to post by Sanity Lost

Super, but the question of the valadity of Jesus in not what Occam was trying to discuss here. That's not what this thread is about. What are your feelings on the point that some Christians just believe that Jesus was a good man and nothing more?

Ohh labels. How I've grown to hate 'em. Who's a Christian and who isn't? Sure not for me to say. If someone tells me they're a Christian, I'm sure not going to argue with them.

To me the singular point of Christianity is that we're all imperfect and unworthy of God. Christ is the Redeemer who was sent to pay the ultimate price for us all. Now personally, I'm not sure anyone who doesn't believe at least that, can accurately be defined as a Christian. But if someone who doesn't wants to call themselves Christian, it's no skin off my onion.

And as I've stated repeatedly, my personal belief is that Christ paid for our sins and we'll ultimately all end up in the same place. I believe that is the will of God. I believe his will will be done. And at the proper time it's done, it will be fair and we'll all be glad.

Don't get caught up in who's "worthy" and who isn't. None of us are. And whatever transgressions are committed in this insignificantly brief (relative to eternity) time on Earth will pale into insignificance in the long-run.

Yes (I believe), the process will be much more rigorous for some than it will be for others, but it's inevitable.

So of all the things that concern me on a daily basis, who calls themselves Christian and who doesn't isn't in the top 8,756.

I'm too busy working on myself. I'm so far behind the love and forgiveness curve that I've got no standing to berate anyone else. When I can make it through a couple of days without contemplating clobbering somebody, I might think differently.

reply to post by yeahright


Yeahright, I agree with you so often that it's not even funny..

[edit on 31-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Well, sometimes I'm funny. I know no one can make me laugh like I can.

Yes I think outside the football threads, we're in fairly close agreement on a lot of things.

Originally posted by jon1

Being a Christian means believing that Jesus Christ is the savior. He says, I am the way the truth and the life, the only way to the father is through me.

This is what the Christian faith is based on. remove Christ and you are left with Ian. I'm afraid Ian can do nothing for you.

On a curious note, how did you manage to remove Jesus from the your belief system.

I think you misread or misunderstood my entire post. I believe in Jesus, I just don't believe that he is God or the begotten son of God. I believe he was a man, a great man...but just a man none-the-less.

reply to post by ben91069


So, it's OK to follow a lie? It would be like someone following Harry Potter, then.

Even more delusional than if the guy really existed.

I think this is the scariest thing I've ever seen on the internet to date: so what if he's fiction? I follow him anyway.