We live in a Zero Tolerance Society

Welcome to the New USA.

My oldest son and I went to the grocery store earlier today, and of course we talked about his life and we talked about my life. Our discussion soon centered on school and he brought up the zero tolerance policies enforced at his school, they apparently had a school assembly that went on for over an hour just speaking about these policies, he said he was creeped out by the whole thing.

Now I’m familiar with some of these policies, as my younger son a few years ago was in first grade and wore his older brother’s jacket to school. Apparently while at school his teacher witnessed him pull a very small pocket knife out of the pocket, this pocket knife you could compare to a pair of toenail clippers, it was that small. My son didn’t know it was in the pocket, but I’m surprised that the school didn’t call in swat, because their reaction to this was phone calls to the local police, phone calls to us, we had to rush up to school, because they stated that they were going to turn my kid over to the local authorities, because he brought a weapon to school. I THINK NOT. I called it a toothpick they called it a weapon. Surely they were just making a big deal about this to scare him to not ever do this again. Nope they were serious. After about an hour of arguing with the school principle, the cop that responded was the one that told the guy to drop it, it was an accident; my kid never had any real problems at school.

So welcome to the real world. The conditioning is starting at an early age in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Personally I don’t recall hearing about zero tolerance when I was in school, duck and cover yes.

The above is just the beginning, they are conditioning our kids to obey without question, but the problems with this are not just found in schools. Judges no longer judge, if a person is found guilty of a certain crime, they will be sentenced to a predetermined length of time, no considerations can be made about individual cases. Wonder why they still call them judges.

Another example are domestic disturbances, many cities have adopted a zero tolerance policy when dealing with domestic disturbances, meaning if they are called when they respond someone is going to jail, even if there is no violence or property damage.

Zero tolerance is a term used to describe a non-discretionary enforcement policy for the criminal law or informal rules. Under a system of zero tolerance, persons in positions of authority – who might otherwise exercise their discretion in making subjective judgments regarding the severity of a given offense – are instead compelled to act in particular ways and, where relevant, to impose a pre-determined punishment regardless of individual culpability or "extenuating circumstances".

"Zero tolerance" policing violates the Law Enforcement Code of Conduct passed by the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which says in part: "The fundamental duties of a police officer include serving the community, safeguarding lives and property, protecting the innocent, keeping the peace and ensuring the rights of all to liberty, equality and justice" (cited in Robinson, 2002). This code requires that police behave in a courteous and fair manner, that they treat all citizens in a respectable and decent manner, and that they never use unnecessary force. As Robinson (2002: 206) explains:
Zero tolerance policing runs counter to community policing and logical crime prevention efforts. To whatever degree street sweeps are viewed by citizens as brutal, suspect, militaristic, or the biased efforts of 'outsiders,' citizens will be discouraged from taking active roles in community building activities and crime prevention initiatives in conjunction with the police. Perhaps this is why the communities that most need neighborhood watch programs are least likely to be populated by residents who take active roles in them.
en.wikipedia.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> Zero tolerance

Please share your experiences, and thoughts.

You know, for a second i thought you meant 'zero tolerance' as in 'no mercy' for some reason - as in, someone insults someone, and you do your damnedest to kill them in any way you can.

If not for this one fact of urban life, i would agree with you over the fact that your son was carrying a toothpick, not a weapon with which could be used to kill or otherwise maim.

And yes, you can kill someone with a toothpick.*






EDIT:* which kinda defies the point of trying to stop people from carrying pointy objects like pencils, pens, rulers, pencil sharpeners, and other various items of stationary.

Not to mention that a rucksack in itself makes for an impressive blunt instrument, if handled correctly.

... Sorry, i miss my school days...

[edit on 27-10-2007 by Throbber]

reply to post by LDragonFire


Yes, this is a problem. School treat everyone like potential Columbine killers, pharmacies/stores treat everyone like potential drugees/criminals, and the U.S. treats everyone like a potential terrorist.

This is where society is going. EVERYONE is considered guilty and evil. That's how they protect themselves. And it's only going to get worse.

The problem with the term weapon in schools is that they do not define what exactly a weapon is. To me, a weapon could be anything found in a school including myself. But that is just my survivalist nature. It's a wonder they don't keep us chained up while in class with our hands in clear view at all time.

Originally posted by Doctor Pepor
The problem with the term weapon in schools is that they do not define what exactly a weapon is. To me, a weapon could be anything found in a school including myself. But that is just my survivalist nature. It's a wonder they don't keep us chained up while in class with our hands in clear view at all time.

That’s a very good point.

For example, from a hunter’s standpoint, a ka-bar is not a weapon. And like you pointed out, from a survivalist or martial artist’s standpoint, the human body is.

reply to post by LDragonFire


I think you hit the nail right on the head here. These policies are all about conditioning the children to a life in a police state where any violation of the endless rules results in draconian punishment. Just another good reason to home school.

I'm surprised there is not more interest in this, our children are being brought up in a world where they must walk threw metal detectors and to submit to random searches, they must be medicated if they act out and is the opinion of school authorities, they must submit and obey to the authorities immediately, and without question or face extreme measures, and this is all normal?, what will they expect when they grow up? What will be normal to them?

The kid angle is just one example of the life we have created, after all, we are allowing this to occur.

Zero Tolerance is not a hallmark of a free society. You people are comfortable about this? This is ok with you?

[edit on 27-10-2007 by LDragonFire]

Originally posted by LDragonFire

Zero Tolerance is not a hallmark of a free society. You people are comfortable about this? This is ok with you?

[edit on 27-10-2007 by LDragonFire]

What interests me is that people seem to think that metal-detectors in schools are actually nessecary.

This is not okay with me, i believe i should have the right to slay my assailant for being foolish enough to assault me (even though technically i do, so long as i don't mind the jail time).

I believe that it is because no one wants to defend themselves, or have the ones they love capable of defending themselves, that people think this is nessecary.

In essence, this is because people are afraid to defend themselves in case the law s*$+5 all over them for doing so.


EDIT: You know what, you're right - we do live in a zero-tolerance society, AGAINST THE VICTIM.

[edit on 27-10-2007 by Throbber]

we are lucky here in Australia, our schools dont have metal detectors and xrays at school. or anything like them. There'd be hell to pay if they tried. but then, our govt has effectively removed guns from normal society....another matter

as far as no tolerance, it is experienced here, just in different ways. The prime example is how people are treated when they appear different. Now I am a career bartender, i have served, chatted, drunk with just about every race, creed on this planet. Yet, yet......

Yet Walk down the street with dreads and it is acceptable if your a student, not if your older. Peircings a fine, again if your young, apparently were suppossed to 'grow out' of this little faze. You will not see anyone looking different in the CBD and if you do, they must be a student or they are a no good dirty hippy.

the reality is in the western world, we live under a huge, aging, poulation. And now I am going to be brutal. They have lived their lives, most have a family, a house and blah blah blah. Now because they are staring down the barrell of their own mortality and are desperately trying to hang on for as long as possible they are busy telling the rest of us how to.

Cut down smoking, binge drinking ohhhh very bad, no no no dont do that its naughty, stop believing that its wierd and scary and i am old and scared.

the really crap thing is there is bugger all any of us 'youngsters' can do. were outnumbered and our vote ( Xgen - 25-35 ) has not mattered and never will.

Nanny state people. woooohhooooooo. Now if you dont mind, i am off to pierce the eyebrow, get blind on whisky and generally run amok.!

You should not discuss with grown men that call a small pocketknife in the hands of a child a weapon.
They live in their fantasy world, maybe they have seen too many movies or something
Yes you can kill someone with it. If the child is really that evil he could kill someone with a pencil ! Or his bare hands ! What are we going to do !!?!? This is so scary !!

[edit on 28-10-2007 by pai mei]

reply to post by LDragonFire


Thanks. An excellent and important topic.

Seems to me, they are gearing up for the rumored NWO world government tyranny where the police are tasked as judge, jury and executioners.

Someone breaks the law, they are shot dead on the spot. Evidently the only issue is whether it should also apply to the first parking ticket or the 2nd or 3rd.

I'm sure SHRILLERY KLINTOON is very eager to get all this installed.

Heh, if I grab a multi-functional pocketknifeor something similar (of normal size, not toeclipper size lol.) Noone even notices unless they're right next to me.

Even if the teacher sees it, they do nothing about it, except maybe say "Put that away you're supposed to do your assignments, not play with knives zomg".

But then again, I live in The Netherlands and not in teh US

Thats the perfect name for the new religious Right candidate to run under
The "ZERO TOLERANCE PARTY".

Zero Tolerance for:
Religous freedom
Democracy
Privacy
Choice
Social programs/assistance
Inquistive Education (education is merely an indoctrination tool)
Environmentalism
Conservation
Honesty
integrity
Patriotism.....
Basically
Zero Tolerance for anything addressing the needs of people and all other living things.
Sounds like "Lucifer's " kinda Party. but they will call it the Party of Jesus.These "religions' have given all of them bad names- Christ, Mohammad, David.....I'd be Pissed too.

reply to post by LDragonFire


I think there is a lot to what your saying but I think it is rather North American centered for the moment. There should be zero tolerance for some thing's like drinking and driving if your over .05 or .08 BAC. or for repeat violent offenders but the policies they have in schools now is just the result of paranoia and fear. My daughter was telling me about the drills they have at her school where they practice getting under there desks, turning out the lights, locking the doors, and being as quite as possible. The first time she mentioned it, I stopped and thought about it. After a few seconds it hit me.... This was in response to the school shootings that have happened. We practiced fire drills, they practice mass murder safety drills.

I have some more for this topic but I don't have time right now to keep typing. Great topic LDF.

[edit on 28-10-2007 by GAOTU789]

LD....The MOST important thing to me here...Is your little guy truly OK ? Me, I pray and hope he is...

For a kid that age to go thru stuff like that must be really scary....So, so unnecessary...Yet a kid that age had to go thru it..

I truly feel for your kid, LD.....I truly hope he's ok after this and doesn't lose faith with the world...

After all, he's got a dad who posts to the greatest truth site on the net, so he's got a big plus on his side with that

Peace and blessings to your boy and all your tribe LD

reply to post by GAOTU789



Being one of those over the hill Baby Boomers who is afraid of his own mortality... This all brought an ironic smile to my face. It's kind of scarey to think that back "in the day" this used to be the exact same response we had to practice in case of incoming nuclear missiles. Weird... The more things change, the more they stay the same.

At least in Nazi Germany it was safe to walk through the streets of Berlin at night. All I ask is, if you are going to opress me, at least make it safe for me to come home after a nightshift.

It is truly frightening the way things are turning. Yet, this isn't the first time...especially not here in the US. But anyway...
I live in eastern Kentucky. What that means is we've got a lot of 'old-timers' in charge, but they were used to a tougher, hard-working sort of life. They typically look over even a younger child (let's say, 12) carrying a small pocket knife around, even in school. Yet with the zero tolerance policies (and they were blatantly called such) after shooting (one of which took place in Kentucky), etc. etc...well, before I graduated there were cameras in every hall of my high school. Considering the school was about 300 students between 8th and 12th grade, then, well, this was a big change.
As for me, I was a kid that sat in the back and didn't talk to anybody...because I actually paid attention. But I fancied black quite a bit so people were afraid that I was going to shoot and/or blow them up.
They told me this. They were actually afraid for their lives due to me, some geek in the back of the room. This, of course, trickled back to the teachers.
Because of this I was paid a little too much attention and so one wrong word said or even written landed me in the principal's office, etc.
It got to be ritualistic.

My point is that this is even going on in some laid-back hick town in the middle of eastern Kentucky. We weren't even allowed to have representations of knives, guns, etc. anywhere on or near us.
On a sports survey I was 'red-flagged,' as they called it, because I said I was on a rifle team (through the local 4H).

In 2002, a friend of mine that had graduated came back to tour a newly built wing of the school. They wouldn't let him in. He was of Iranian descent. Born and raised locally and an alumni of the school...and while they let others tour at will, they nearly called the police on him because he began arguing with them about it.

Sadly, this seems to be everywhere.

Sorry for too much wind, but this all has been personal to me for a long while now.

Agreed. I was in grade 7 when all of this "no tolerance" stuff started. Zero tolerance for "bullying/harrassment" was probably the most ridiculous one. At least in my age group, and from what I saw, across the whole school, there were no "bullies" in the traditional sense of people beating kids up for lunch money or anything near that. Just typical kids fooling around and occasionally teasing each other, etc. But thanks to the ridiculous "zero tolerance" policies, sticking your tongue out at another kid was treated like you had punched them in the face.

I've actually written that start of a novel/autobiography (18,000 words so far) of my childhood, with real-life accounts of some of the senseless policies encountered by myself and my friends towards the end of public school. Every time I think back, I can remember even more injustice that would never fly in the "grown up" world. And most of the problems were paradoxically caused by the teachers, which forced the kids into a situation to cause a problem.

Example:
The school admin were constantly talking about not littering, yet they never even placed a single garbage can outside for students during recess. Then once every few months they went nuts and had a "garbage lockdown" where they did bring out a garbage can at the end of recess, just to lecture us on how filthy we've all made the yard, and the rule literally was "You don't get in without a piece of garbage." Every kid had to pick up a piece of garbage before being allowed into the school. So then you have every single kid picking up filth off the ground, and then sent back to class without washing their hands. Christ.

Here's another one...

In grade 8, the teachers got an idea into their head to all take turns passing grades 6-8 all off onto a single teacher to watch, while the rest of them went out for lunch. This resulted in about 4 regular classes of students all being crammed into a single class. So obviously most of us were eating our lunches OFF OF THE FLOOR. I don't know when you were last in a public school, but those floors are so filthy that just sitting on them will cover your pants in dust and dirt. Then at the end of the lunch period they had a similar "cleanup" rule. Rather than every student be responsible for their own garbage, they continued resorting to the "everyone clean up everything" rule, so that the students that made the mess usually continued sitting around while the teacher yelled at the students who already threw out their garbage to help clean up.
So my friends and I showed our teacher the school handbook where a lunch rule clearly stated "All students are to eat lunch in their OWN DESKS in their OWN CLASSROOM with their teacher supervising." Her response to us? "Stop being so petty." My friends and I just started going home for lunch, and the next year they took the rule out of the handbook. Not only do they enforce rules that don't make sense, they pick and choose which rules they want to enforce when the situation suits them.

I can go on and on and on. Ask your kids all the things that are going wrong at their school, they'll tell you.

People working for the public elementary school system (most, not all) are some of the most unqualified people I've ever seen... I wouldn't even call them professionals.

[edit on 10/28/2007 by Yarcofin]

WOW !!!???

I find it hard to believe you guys had to go thru a high school system like that....Teachers and board members with their own agendas...Obviously not to benefit the students which is their job

I only hope you guys and gals got thru it ok and aren't to bitter....Too keep up the fight, the good fight...You guys and gals who have been dicked by the education system, wherever you are in the world are great to have on board...

A lot of things have to change...freedom in education, that is what we are taught, what we learn is one of them....

That is one area where you new or recent students can make a difference

Peace and fight the good fight hard