The Origin Of Evil.

Originally posted by jakyll
SThis is clearly shown in the character of Satan.In the Old Testament he is a loyal servant of God.Christians,wanting to blame someone for the horrors of the world,create in the New Testament,the Devil.And thus,forever ignore/deny the fact that God has everything to do with Evil.He is the creator and maintainer of Evil!!
[edit on 17-10-2007 by jakyll]

No, God created Man and he gave man the ability to choose. Evil is a man made thing born from this ability to choose. Explain to me what is evil in the world outside of man, and if man was extinct would not evil in the world be extinct too?

Man and not God is the creator and maintainer of evil.

reply to post by gravytrain

The devil is the greed, the anger, and the ignorance that blinds us all. Not an external being unto itself. God is the wisdom, the compassion, the acceptance, the enlightenment, the part of us that is beyond the physical world. Also not an external being unto itself. We as humans have the capacity to be the devil. Just as we have the capacity to be great saints or bohidsattva's This is the truth.

All that is seen as negative is not always negative though is it?
For example,take the 7 Deadly Sins (at there most basic) and each and everyone can only not be avoided but most of them can also be turned into a positive.

Envy & Greed can be (are) the motivating forces of ambition,and without ambition very little of any importance would be accomplished.
Gluttony is simply eating more than you need to survive.If you become overweight,the sin of Pride kicks in and motivates you to become healthy again and to renew your self respect.
Wrath can do harm,but it can also bring about great changes in the world.Jesus was angered by the money men who conducted business in the Jewish Temple,and from that anger he hoped to bring forth a change,keep the Temple sacred.The French are well known for going on strike,as this week has shown.They're being scammed on pensions so anger motivates along with the feeling of injustice and they do something about it.

reply to post by queenannie38


Thank you for your posts queenie,they're always informative

reply to post by Xtrozero


If Evil is man made then what caused Lucifer and the other Angels to rebel?

Answer:Sin.

Who created Sin?

Answer:God.

Also,as quoted earlier from the Bible,God says he/she created Evil.If this wasn't true why would God claim this?

Originally posted by jakyll
Envy & Greed can be (are) the motivating forces of ambition,and without ambition very little of any importance would be accomplished.

Maybe for some people, but not for me. Im never greedy or envious, and yet I have a great desire to help change the world for the better.

I think Wrath is probably my main motivating factor for wanting change.


[edit on 22-10-2007 by Copernicus]

Which god are we talking about here? The jealous evil one from the OT or the piss poor effort of a god from the NT (does it even make an appearance in the NT? - and dont hit me with jesus is god). The god of the NT is NOT the god of the OT. According to the god of the OT, the NT is false doctrine and jesus is a false prophet.

But I would have to agree (for sake of argument, I'm an atheist) that the OT god, according to the OT is the creator of evil. Simple as that


G

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

If Evil is man made then what caused Lucifer and the other Angels to rebel?

Answer:Sin.

Who created Sin?

Answer:God.

Also,as quoted earlier from the Bible,God says he/she created Evil.If this wasn't true why would God claim this?

Well if you want to technical you can say God created everything, and when God gave man the freedom of choice he also created evil as a choice. What is Evil anyways, but the actions of man and not some green goop. If you do not perform the act or thought you cannot do evil. Sin is an act of evil and so I guess angels are also capable of choice too.

Please explain to me where is evil outside the action of man or angels.

If humans didn't exist on our planet, what evil acts would be done? I feel that the answer is none. To me this points to evil as being man made, and that it is a product man's higher level of intelligence compared to all other living creatures.

Also consider the fact that what one person considers evil, another person might view as morally acceptable. The conflict between Israel and Palestine is a great example of this. Israel believes that the land they occupy is theirs, granted to them by God himself. But the Palestinians believe that they have been unjustly removed from their homeland. So when someone from one side of this conflict kills someone on the other side, the person doing the killing likely feels that it was an acceptable act. Meanwhile someone in, say, the USA would hear about that and think that the killer is evil for taking another persons life.

From a religious perspective I think the same thing can occur. Good and evil are relative. Many religions view Satan/the devil/etc. as being evil entities. But what about people who worship Satan? They don't see him as evil, but I imagine that they do see the god(s) of those other religions as being something other than righteous.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

If Evil is man made then what caused Lucifer and the other Angels to rebel?

Answer:Sin.

Who created Sin?

Answer:God.

Also,as quoted earlier from the Bible,God says he/she created Evil.If this wasn't true why would God claim this?

From a Biblical perspective I agree with you. Not only did God create the angels, but God supposedly is aware of all things that will ever happen from beginning to end. Therefore God was aware of the fact that his creations would become corrupted by this thing we call evil. Quite an interesting situation.

reply to post by jakyll


I disagree. Ambition that stems from greed and envy will only lead to suffering. However, Ambition that stems from compassion and love is conductive to the happiness of one and all. And No Man did not create evil. Look at the animal world. You see animals display evil all the time. You see simple forms of greed. Of lust. Murder. Kidnapping. Cannibalism. So no, man did not create evil. Evil is necessary, for if there was no evil there would be no good. Two sides of the same coin.

Evil Creates good. Or is it good creates evil? Or perhaps it is just there is evil. and there is good. Or how i think of it- there is cause and there is effect. Thats what it all boils down to. Cause and effect. You do the things that evil men do. You are evil. You do the things that saints do, and you are a saint.

Why do people feel the need to have a devil? There is evil, and there is good. When you start trying to figure out where it comes from you cant. Because of the law of cause and effect. You could go back in time indeffinently trying to find the cause of evil. But you would find that there is always a cause to that cause, and a cause to that cause so on and so forth forever and ever. There was no beginning, just as there is no end. It is a cycle that never ends. The goal is to become liberated from the cycle. Because if you in the cycle of cause and effect. you will suffer. Being liberated and learning the truth of this cycle will end your dependance on the effects of your causes and thus you will be free from the cycle.

Mankind feels a need to give things a beginning, and an end. So we in our physical bodies that have a beginning and an end can understand it. But this logic is flawed, and based on fear and superstition rather then facts, and observation. The end of one thing is the begining of another thing. Cause, and effect. The rule of karma. For this is what karma is. Cause and effect. The bible has truth within it. But most people mistake the bible to be the moon (truth) when it is the finger that points to the moon (truth). Dont make this mistake. Realize that it is not meant to be accepted litteraly. But it has rich symbolism that pertains to our lives in the here and now.

Dont mistake the finger that points to the moon to be the moon. This leads to all this confusion and ignorance that I know permeates our society to this day.

Wake up.

The Evil i am talking about in this thread is the Evil of the Bible,more spefically,the Old Testament.

I started it because i'm sick of the Holier Than Thou Christians who want to have their cake and eat it!
In most modern Bibles God,who creates Evil,has had his/her words changed to suit someone's faith.They don't seem to realise that you change for your beliefs,not the other way round!
If you have to do that then that religion is obviously not for you.Yet Christians can't seem to stop themselves.It has changed more than any other faith in the world that i don't think anyone can say that they know the truth of it!!



Personally,as stated earlier,i believe in the Duality of all things.The negative and the positive cannot exist without each other! There is a power in everything.Some call it God,some call it Science....


Being Evil is not always a choice.Pedophiles and many serial killers/mass murderers suffer from a mental illness,a chemical inbalance in the brain.They are victims of their own minds,does that make them truly evil?
Some people "become" evil because they are victims of abuse,or victims of poverty and a harsh life.Are these people evil? The British killer Fred West was a victim of abuse,but growing up he showed no signs of being violent.He was a good natured kid who was always quick to laugh.It was only after he had a severe blow to the front of his head that his personality changed radically,leading to moody,aggressive and violent behaviour.Was he evil?
Some commit acts of evil because they know not better,its how they've been raised.They've been "brainwashed" to believe that what they do is right.(kinda like the American soldiers in their "war on terror.) Are these people truly evil?


Of course people will say that if you know right from wrong then yes you are evil.But many people don't know this basic element of life.Some know what they do is wrong but are unable to stop which makes them not victims of evil,but victims of their own minds!
Though no doubt some of you will say that its the Devil working through them...










[edit on 22-10-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by jakyll
I started it because i'm sick of the Holier Than Thou Christians who want to have their cake and eat it!

Right there is where you and I completely agree - despite the fact that our own personal belief systems would be considered worlds apart by many who only see 'atheism' and 'christianity' or a similar dogmatic dichotomy.

Semantics fool most of us all of the time and some of us all the time...the confusion at Babel was a very good tactic to keep us divided - for a time.

In the Hebrew bible, it was YHVH (I AM) who did that. In other mythologies, it was Hermes or Enki.

They don't seem to realise that you change for your beliefs,not the other way round!

Even though GOD says: I don't change!

Yet Christians can't seem to stop themselves.It has changed more than any other faith in the world that i don't think anyone can say that they know the truth of it!!

It is a very young religion, too - relatively speaking.

Personally,as stated earlier,i believe in the Duality of all things.The negative and the positive cannot exist without each other! There is a power in everything.Some call it God,some call it Science....

In DEED! Although I personally look at science as a means to prove something rather than the something it attempts to explain. Religion attempts to explain the same thing, only from a very short-sighted perspective which stops right after the observation of empirical evidence and simply assigns it to GOD. In religion it is either wrath or approval; which, to me, seems to make it convenient to shirk personal accountability toward both self and others. And if it doesn't feel good to say God is executing fair discipline, then it is 'satan,' the 'devil,' or the 'anti-christ.'

But the 'something' for which proof and explanation are sought is TRUTH. What is...is what IS.

Of course people will say that if you know right from wrong then yes you are evil. But many people don't know this basic element of life. Some know what they do is wrong but are unable to stop which makes them not victims of evil,but victims of their own minds!

Not to mention the undeniable truth of such ideas like 'right' and 'wrong' - they are relative terms, also; subject to things such as culture, upbringing, and religion (of course!).

reply to post by queenannie38

Not to mention the undeniable truth of such ideas like 'right' and 'wrong' - they are relative terms, also; subject to things such as culture, upbringing, and religion (of course!).

Very true!

But as we are the civilized west (LMAO) we look down on other countries and judge them using our lifestyle as a parallel.Saudi Arabia has been condemned for many years for their public executions.Before the 1990's women were shot,men beheaded,nowadays everyone gets the chop!
I agree with some of their death sentences.Premeditated murder,rape,pedophilia,infanticide,armed robbery(but only if someone has been killed during it)But i don't agree that you should be killed for being homosexual,for smuggling drugs or for apostasy.


We say we have progressed in the western world,but thats only because the people have fought for what they want.Fear stops the peoples of other countries following suit.The fact you could be tortured and killed for trying to change things will keep the vast majority of people quiet.When our countries changed,(getting rid of the death penalty,giving women the vote,letting women work etc) the only danger we faced was imprisonment!

And,as stated above,sometimes these "backwards" countries have the right idea!

Originally posted by jakyll

Leviticus 18:22 (King James Version)

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

...not my words... but the below clip presents an excellent response to that passage...

I LOVE this speech...



I couldn't say it better myself...

[Edit to clarify and delete unrelated quote]

[edit on 6-11-2007 by Harlowe JNkinz]

reply to post by Harlowe JNkinz


I can't get it to play,you'll have to tell me what it says.Please.

intresting topic. But have you thought of the fact what the King James Bible is one of the worst inaccurate version of the bible? If you really want to get the true meaning of the Old Testament, read it in the orginal Hebrew, and Aramic?

reply to post by boyester


Of course.
But the original English translation was taken from the original texts.William Tyndale (a protestsant) did the New Testament 1st,but before he could complete the Old Testament,the loving men of the Catholic faith had him burnt at the stake.
Problems started to arise when his work was completed.The scholars used the Latin Vulgate,not the original texts.
In responce to this Bible,the Catholics released the Geneva Bible and it quickly became the more popular.Several years later,King James,in an effort to resolve the problems and controversies of the faith authorised the KJV.


The different Hebrew translations i have looked at say the same thing though,God greated Evil.Also,in the Septuagint (LXX) the oldest translation of the Hebrew Bible,the line is the same.

well, my lovelies, just checking out your lovely posts whilst preparing for a *fun*da*mental*ist bible study!

these things are good to talk about. And man some of these answers could do with a humourous caning back , i'd particularly like to have words with the scriptwriter of that film with the Christian that gets mawled by the president. Very clever script. Time forbids such fun digressions atm.


If ya trace the word use (ra' - go to blueletterbible for a lexicon) you'll see it has legitimate alternate uses: 'calamity', trouble, misery, distress. Such 'evil' is the inevitable and terrible consequence of 'sin' - to tell the Most High to talk to the Hand cos the face ain't listening, very very very rude to the God that made & sustain you.

The bible is upfront about God initiating the curse on the world. It was in response to our voting Satan in as the man to listen to. "You made a serious decision, now you must deal with its consequences," God said. Thus the reign of pain descended on mortal man. That ain't the only reference to God being in control of darkness in this world. For more see here). I think the scriptures portray him in a chess game scenario where he lures man by his own evil to accomplishing ultimate good, we will see on an end of game flex, that all evil just was brought to such a cataclysmic and devasting end, that even calamity he used for good ('all tings work together for our good' he said, even Christians being slaughtered daily like lambs - cf the book of Romans, chapter 8 - a minor touch on the OT/NT continuity).

So God brings trouble on those who trouble him, mostly its in our interests, cos it can be the only thing that can make us wake up and look up. Anyways, blessings and thanx for expressing yourselves so freely, it helped me think! May the God of good bless you, and not curse you,

love, t

Transformed - Christ for ex-offenders
HarmlessWise.com - where i'm comin' from!

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. (Psalms 5:4)
1 John 1: 5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13)
Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [this is also a sense of the calamity]

we need to have a word study in order to understand the meaning of the word evil in Isaiah 45:7.

Originally posted by jakyll
The Latin Vulgate,probably the oldest version of the Bible in the world,states thus...

Isaiah 45-7

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Do you see?
God created Evil.Not Satan.Not Man.


For centuries the King James version had the same wording,and still does in the 21st Century version.

first off, latin vulgate is not the oldest. coptic transcripts are much older. but thats neither here nor there in this discussion.

the king james version (english) is NOT the original language for the bible. Hebrew, aramic, greek, these are the original languages the bible was written in. using the the king james as an authority to show what the bible says and doesnt say doesnt make sense. its a translation (english) of a translation (latin) of a translation (greek) of another translation (hebrew).

isaiah was written in hebrew so go to the source.

ra´ or ¨evil¨ has lots of meanings depending on the context

number of times it occurs in the KJV - (663) - adversity, 4; affliction, 6; bad, 13; evil, 442; favoured, 3; grievous, 2; harm, 3; hurt, 20; ill, 5; misc, 34; mischief, 21; naught, 3; noisome, 2; sad, 2; sore, 9; trouble, 10; wicked, 25; wickedness, 59;

so, does the fact that the KJV uses specifically the word ¨evil¨ that that means evil the way we understand the word? not necessarily. english HAS changed. certain phrases and idioms used back then have changed quite considerably.

evil CAN also mean calamity. for example, jesus said to return evil for evil to noone. we understand jesus as saying not to seek revenge when someone causes us calamity. we are not to call down evil on anyone or we are not to wish calamity in anyone´s life.

is ¨evil¨ a bad translation? not at all. in time that the king james bible was written, it was an appropriate word to use in that context. for example, you could even say GOD called down evil upon the inhabitants of sodom and gomorrah. however, today that has a different meaning. saying that implies that god is doing that unjustly. to reflect the justness of GOD´s actions, the phrase must be altered to reflect modern english. he caused calamity to befall sodom.

so in the case of isaiah, which definition is to be used? well the context lays it out for you. you have a comparison of opposites, light verses dark. evil (not good) is not the opposite of peace. calamity however is. calamity also can be translated from the hebrew word ra´.

so bibles translating the passage ¨creating calamity¨are not wrong.

So why the change?
Because Christians can not accept the answer that all the Evil that exists in this world comes directly from their God of Peace,Love etc.Even though it states quite clearly in the older version of the different Bibles that God created everything!

this argument is silly. take a man who invents a word. lets say the word is ¨splakendoodle¨, its an adjective. what your saying is that whatever that word means, he is also directly responsible for creating the opposite of that word (non-splakendoodle or whatever)

just because god creates love, doesnt mean he is automatically responsible for the a person who lacks love (evil)

yes god created freewill, which gives us the option of ¨lacking love¨. however we are to blame if we choose that path, not god.

So,some Christians close their minds to this and in doing so they deny the Word of God.the God they supposedly worship.Other Christians have the audacity to change the Word of God because it does not fit in with their belief.I guess if they can do that other believers should be able to do the same thing.Instead of this...

Leviticus 18:22 (King James Version)

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

How about...

Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind,it is wrong

lol, this argument is entirely based on the assumption that ¨abomination¨ means idol worship. again, you (and others who argue this point) take the word to mean one thing and one thing only.

hebrew lexicon has this definition - a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable

1. in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
2. in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

so ¨wrong¨can be put there.

its interesting that you are doing the very thing that are accusing others of, changing the bible to fit your beliefs.

lev 18:22 has no solid context that says that it is pertaining ONLY to pagan rituals (that is of-course besides the word ¨abomination¨ which doesnt ONLY mean idol worship) even verse three says ¨after the doings of egypt¨ and canaan directly refering to customs, everyday customs, not pagan rites.

so what you have here is two possible interpretations, with one holding more weight than the other. however you prefer to choose the stretch and say that 18 is refering to pagan rituals, even though there is nothing to establish that it is. (note i said establish, not hint)

But this makes no sence.If Satan became full of pride as the Bible states,then the Sin of Pride had to exist prior to his fall! How else could he have been tempted to sin?

If you look at the passages in the Old Testament where Satan is mentioned,not once does he defy God.In fact he does the exact opposite,he obeys God! At all times he is under the power/control of God.This makes me wonder,if Satan was a fallen Angel and Evil,why was he working in God's court for God????

this is exactly where your reasoning leads. the father of the lie, the original serpent, the great manslayer suddenly is just ¨doing his job¨

in one paragraph you just took the blood of billions of people who suffered and died in this unstable word, and you poured it into god´s hands. and all because the bible doesnt explicitly say ¨satan sinned¨ (ofcourse nevermind revelation when it says that satan will be destroyed in the lake of fire)

Christians say that God is letting Satan act out.If this is so,it means that God can stop Satan any time He wishes,that He has the power to do away with Evil.But God chooses not too....

why? that is the question you should be asking. why would god allow satan to rule? what issues regarding god´s sovereignty where raised in the garden? what point is god allowing satan to try to prove?

the answer to those question will open giant doors for you.

This is clearly shown in the character of Satan.In the Old Testament he is a loyal servant of God.

think about this for a second. if god is almighty, then anything he wants to happen happens right? if god wanted job to be preserved alive, is there anything that satan could do that change that? anything at all? no ofcourse not. if god said, dont touch this, there is nothing satan could do to get around that.

satan operates at the permission of god. he can be stopped at any moment. this permission cannot be mistaken for obedience.

a rat in a cage can be as defiant as he wants, within his cage. nothing he can do can change his situation. if those stronger and more intelligent than him desire him to stay in the cage, then thats where he stays, it doesnt imply that he is being obedient. it just means he doesnt have a choice.