PARA: How Could They Know That? The Dogon Mystery.

I heard about this 'story' a while back, i put it in my brain under the 'Way to Crazy to belive' Catagory.

Then i came to the realisation that if I dismiss facts, then i am an idiot, and if i can't deal with it, then i am just an idiot... so i then put it in the file of, 'stuff just to crazy to know the orgin of'

So i was struck with a condrumdumb, how can a people know of something, that modern science didn't know of until very recently?

So, in short, anything is possible.

Hello i tried sending you a private message NGC2736 but ats said i had to have 20 posts.. so here goes. (my first post ever)

You might want to recheck your links some are broken and one goes to an x rated site. the links that work are good though and its a great post all in all

best wishes thecsb

I want to thank all the posters so far. Unfortunately I am too short of time to make replies at this time, as I have a family member that was put on life support last night, and I may be away from this thread for some time.

It is not my normal practice to not field what questions I can, but this time I must act out of character. There have been some excellent posts on both sides of the idea, and I look forward to reading each and every one of them when time permits.

Please do not let my absence dampen your interest, either for or against this story. The people of this forum are more than capable of seeing this through with or without me.

Thank you, NGC2736

Is it because everyone wants so badly to have something be true that they ignore my post that this was a hoax. Not one responsed or confirmationed that anyone even read it. Very odd. I want more then anything to believe there is more to life then here on earth but ignoring debunking material does not make it more true.

reply to post by Rhain


Rhain, your link of Philip Coppens mostly consists of a brief discussion on Van Beeks authoritative, and academically thorough debunking. However, Essan had already posted that same information, although not the same link, a page prior to your link.

Some members had already responded to Essan. Others either mentioned Philip Coppens , Van Beeks or, like myself, posted other academic links that acknowledge Van Beeks work, but provide reasons why Van Beeks debunking may not have been absolute.



[edit - speeling]



[edit on 10/13/07 by makeitso]

Originally posted by Rhain
Is it because everyone wants so badly to have something be true that they ignore my post that this was a hoax. Not one responsed or confirmationed that anyone even read it. Very odd.

Hi Rhain,

I've read the interesting (if rather brief) article by Philip Coppens that you referred to.

There are probably several reasons for no-one commenting on your post.

Firstly, relatively few people will go through the full thread. In fact, many of the people that received (and glanced at) the email containing the OP will not have visited this thread at all. This is the main reason why I think it is probably not worth the time that would be required to post within this thread a lengthy response explaining all the problems with the OP.

Secondly, prior to your post, Essan had posted much of the argument put forward by Coppens earlier in the thread.

I may write an article for the ATS newsletter which details all of the relevant issues. However, I doubt ATS will want to circulate a second article on the same topic. So, I may be wasting my time...

In case I don't bother writing a full article in response, for now I'll just post a list of the references that I've selected from my notes as being particularly relevant and informative (with an indication of the length of the discussion within each of these references). This should allow anyone interested to look into the truth in a bit more detail.

Some useful references for a discussion of the truth about the Dogon/Sirius myth:

Ashpole, Edward in his “The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence” (1989) at pages 149-152 (in Chapter 9) of the Blandford softcover edition. [4 page discussion]

Bullard, Thomas in his “The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning - 2nd edition” (1998) in Volume 1:A-K at page 135 (forming part of the entry entitled “Anomalous Aerial Phenomena before 1800” at pages 121-138) of the Omnigraphics hardback edition. [1 page discussion]

Coomer, David in his “The UFO Investigator’s Guide” (1999) at pages 13-14 (in the Introduction) of the Blandford softback edition. [2 page discussion]

Coppens, Filip in “The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters” (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 550-552 (in an entry entitled “Sirius Mystery, The”) of the New American Library softcover edition, at pages 538-540 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition). [3 page discussion]

Fitzgerald, Randall in his “The Cosmic Test Tube” (1998) at pages 11-15, 50-52 (in Section 1), 313-314, 315 (in Section 4) with a one sentence summary at page 368 (in the Guide To Books) of the Moonlake Media softcover edition. [11 page discussion]

Hansen, Terry in his “The Missing Times : News Media Complicity in the UFO Cover-Up” (2000) at pages 191-192 (in Chapter 5) of the Xlibris softcover edition. [2 page discussion]

Krupp, E C in “Science and the Paranormal” (1981) (edited by Abell, George O and Singer, Barry) at pages 289-295 (in Chapter 16) of the Junction Books hardback edition. [7 page discussion]

Moore, Patrick in his “Can you speak Venusian?” (1972) at pages 115-117 (in Chapter 13) of the Star Books paperback edition. [3 page discussion]

Oberg, James in his “UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries” (1982) at pages 121-131 (in Chapter 6 generally, “The Sirius Mystery”) of the Donning paperback edition. [11 page discussion]

Ridpath, Ian in his “Messages from the Stars” (1978) at pages 189-202 (Chapter 12 generally) of the Fontana paperback edition. [14 page discussion]

Ridpath, Ian in his article “Investigating the Sirius Mystery” (1978), Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 3, Number 1, Fall 1978, at pages 56-62. Article available online at: www.csicop.org... [7 page discussion]

Sagan, Carl in his “Broca’s Brain” (1979) at pages 66 (in Chapter 5), 85-99 (in Chapter 6) of the Coronet paperback edition. [16 page discussion]

Spencer, John and Spencer, Anne in their “True Life Encounters – Alien Contact” (1997) at pages 53-60 (in Chapter 5 generally) of the Millenium paperback edition. [8 page discussion]

Story, Ronald in his “Guardians of the Universe?” (1980) at pages 113-126 (in Chapter 12 generally) of the New English Library paperback edition. [14 page discussion]

Temple, Robert in his “The Sirius Mystery” (1976) generally, particularly at pages 3-16 (in Chapter 1) of the 1998 revised Arrow paperback edition. [Whole book]

Von Daniken, Erich in his “According to the evidence” (1977) at pages 81-92 (in Chapter 3) of the Souvenir Press hardback edition. [12 page discussion]

Kind Regards,

Isaac

[edit on 13-10-2007 by IsaacKoi]

I'm really just an ATS spectator, but I had to respond to this thread. It hits home to my most personal studies. I'll share some of the cookies, but not all of them because this is previlaged information. You know secret society style.

Dogon oral history is not a myth. There knowledge is thousands of years old. It was not given to them by any westerners. This is Ancient African spirituality, something many Europeans mistake for religion. The Dogons are decendants of the people force to leave Khemet by foriegn invaders. The speak Meter Netu, the langauge of Ancient Khemet. There for it is not a dead language, as the powers that be allow you to believe.

The Dogon people have sent as you westerners would say, missionaries to The States to awaken sleeping African to there true culture. They have many headquarter though out the US. They also take many African(Black) people back to Africa every year to live in the bush and refresh our genetics memories. Some stay, others return to the States to teach others the mysteries(what you westerners call it African Spirituality).

Lastly these people are not back at all, Westerners are the ones that are backwards. You all destroy everything you touch and as you now know are killing the earth. Dogon Priest are capable of doing things your minds could not believe even if you saw it.

Thats all I will reveal. I know I probably wasted my time, seeing that many of you are to ignorant and racism cripples your minds. To those that are not crippled by ignorance this was your cookie.

Peace

reply to post by Essan


I have read the disclaimers et al, and they are very convincing. I am the type that is, seeing is believing, and all this stuff I read about things of this nature is through another mans eyes. I try to read through these things and find the motivation and principles of each story. Then put myself in the situation to see how it feels.
Of the Dogon. If I had a knowledge of things beyond and held a secret society within my tribe to pass down this knowledge. In comes a stranger and lives with me and makes me believe after much time has passed that they can become one of us. I tell him the secrets. he goes and tells the world and now many more are coming to find out about my secrets. I would tell them I don't know what they are talking about or give them contradicting information to keep my secret safe.
The other thing that gives some validity to the claim is that none of the people who have researched this and said it is a fraud have given any reason as to why this tribe would promote such a hoax. They have no need for anything that we have to offer. If anyone can offer a reason for them to do this, I'm all eyes.

Coincidence that Dogon spelt backwards is No God?

Mantic, no one has said the Dogon perpetuated a deliberate hoax. Wanting to please someone, which is perhaps what happened, is not the same thing. Eg, "Meillassoux says: "Even in the best of cases, could they propose corrections without seeming discourteous or incurring the loss of their interlocutors' generous friendship?"
That's from www.geocities.com...

Wikipedia is clearly wrong that critics can dispute the Sirius C claim. Griaule even probably knew about early claims that there was a Sirius C.
Philip Coppens comments on this here: www.philipcoppens.com...
and see www.geocities.com...

As for calling those of us who don't think that Griaule etc were right racists, that's just disgusting.

I was originally planning to reply because someone mentioned the Dropa Stones.
The bottom line about these is that there is no evidence for the story.
See en.wikipedia.org...

OP....check your U2U's.....important message for you regarding the links in your first post.


Ok, just read your last post....am so sorry to hear about your family member, hope they get better soon. This was an excellent article, and obviously one of your links has been hacked/corrupted.

take care, hope all goes well

[edit on 14-10-2007 by geek101]

reply to post by abstract prophet



an excellent post my friend. and you are absolutely right. in the west we have given up our connections to the earth for a more dogmatic approach to life. we have lost something in translation


[edit on 14-10-2007 by redbarron626]

[edit on 14-10-2007 by redbarron626]

Originally posted by NGC2736 Now How Could They Know That? The Mystery of The Dogon People.
How did these people that call themselves the conduit between Earth and Heaven know what could not be seen with the naked eye? How could they hold in their religion ideas said to be thousands of years old, when the western world was just finding these things?
Or maybe a better question might be to ask, who told them the mysteries of the heavens?

An alternative to off-world visitors telling the Dogon about the planets is that time travelling scientists took back 20th century knowledge of the planets and told the ancient people of it.

I've always loved this little story, and wanted it so much to be true, but for me, it has been successfully debunked. And like a lot of other 'ancient mysteries' the same old, battered hearsay and half-truths keep getting retold over and over, without the relevant evidence that successfully debunks them as hoaxes, frauds or misunderstandings.

See also: 2012.

One of the most annoying qualities about fringe materials is the endless ability of people to take the previous explained material, remove the explanation and present it as fresh and new evidence.

This was all debated, looked at and debunked decades ago. If the Dogon had been an isolated tribe that hadn't had contact with the west before the 1920s it might be feasible, as it was they had continual contact with westerner influence from early colonial days. That they picked up some aspects of western thought (as they were interested in it) is not remarkable at all.

Aliens are the least logical answer- but like any good mystery, if you believe hard enough you can still trumpet it as proof.

reply to post by sigung86


o.k. so i will not take any sleeping pills from some guy that wants to go meet the mothership....what does the Stargate tragedy have to do with the Dogon?...Nothing from where i read.

Originally posted by Eddy_P

An alternative to off-world visitors telling the Dogon about the planets is that time travelling scientists took back 20th century knowledge of the planets and told the ancient people of it.

Yes, but to believe that you would have to be crazy...

I'm sorry but there is really no story here for me. If they had known and related their knowledge of Sirius B to Westerners before it was discovered by modern science then that would merit further investigation, as it is there is no reason to believe that they didn't receive the knowledge from other tribes or European explorers.

I like to keep an open mind, and this is especially true whilst on ATS. At the same time however I realise that the vast majority of UFO sightings have an Earthly explanation. Likewise I see no reason to ascribe an extraterrestial explanation to something which can be explained more simply by conventional means. Surely Occam's razor has to come into play here?

Yep if the Dogon had shown knowledge of the planets around those stars - that might have been of interest. As it was they only had knowledge that was available to any European (or anybody else) who had an interest in astronomy.

Occam's

this is cool. I've found my reading materials for the day. What bothers me about things like this is that there's so many people who talk about tribes as these like savages and behind on everything, even if they have way more knowledge about things that civilized people do. I think that these claims are awesome even if they aren't proven...

[edit on 10/17/2007 by acegotflows]

Dogonit. I think someone is pulling my leg.
reply to post by future flow