St JUDE Novena: Possible PROOF of God?

Let me start off with a simple disclaimer...

While born Cathlolic, I am hardly practicing-
I do not attend Church except for Christmas,
and I do not pray on a daily, or weekly, basis.

I believe in God 100%, however, and while I believe in Jesus,
I am not so sure about how he fits in to the big picture.

My wife is Hindu and I think that religion is great,
so, to sum up, I am not a devout Christian, but rather, an open-minded
spititual person.

I have been aware of the ST JUDE NOVENA for many years...
for those who do not know, it is pretty straightforward-
a short prayer to a saint- St. Jude- that you say 9 times a day
for 9 days, and its' a prayer in which you request help in some specific way...

To date, I have used it TWICE in my life- the idea being that you only should
use it when you really need help.

The first time was about 15 years ago.

I asked for emotional relief from a trauma that was overwhelming me,
and on the 9th day... the burden was entirely removed. It really felt
like a miracle.

The next time I used it was during this last year... this time, I asked
for something more concrete, and sure enough, on the 9th day, what
I asked for happened- and when it did, I was so shocked it made me literally
tremble with fear for a few moments.

On the prayer card, it actually says- "Prayer has NEVER been known to fail..."

Here is my point, and question:

With religion, so often we are told that there is NO PROOF, because FAITH, by definition, is belief without proof.

BUT...

These two St Jude Novena experiences have really been eerie,
because, well- an answered prayer makes feels an awful lot like proof.

HAS ANYONE here ever tried to do the St Jude novena?

If so- what were the results?

If not.... would you try it (presuming you believed in it- doing it without
belief in God would be meaningless in my opinion...)

Looking forward to hearing about other experiences!


TPM

By the way- I suppose the discussion should not be limited to St. Jude...

Has anyone had an experience with prayer that led to some CONCRETE

form of response/proof that was hard to explain away?

TPM

Prayer and the apparent "answering" of that prayer is not proof of god.

If prayer is analyzed statistically, it is shown to have no effect whatsoever.

The first prayer you did was emotionally based, and most likely your belief in the prayer is the reason it appeared to "work." you basically programmed yourself to let go of your emotional burden.

The second prayer you did has more to do with the laws of probability than with any actual intervention.

If you look at this page, it explains the truth behind why prayer sometimes appears to work. Watch the video, as well.

Nothing has been proven, except that you are looking for proof where there really isn't any.

Nothing personal, not intended to be "mean." Just stating the facts as rational thought breaks them down.

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


MM has it right here.
you have as much of a chance of a prayer to god being answered as you do to a prayer to a jug of milk.

HighDefinitionFilms....we sound alot alike regarding our spiritual outlook.

I guess my most vivid experience with prayer was, from the outside looking in, a little juvenile.
A little over 12 years ago, my brother was hit by a logging truck on a narrow road in Georgia. He broke his neck and was rendered a quadriplegic. The only difference between him and Christopher Reeve was that he was able to breathe on his own without the aid of a ventilator. Everything else was the same...no movement at all from the neck down. It was a devastating time for my family.
I had never been someone who prayed very much and, like you, would only attend church at E & C (Easter & Christmas).
After my brother's accident, one day I was just so down and cried all morning. I had a Bible on my nightstand.
( If your Southern, you keep a bible out in view in your home whether you read it or not. :lol
Being in such a depressed state, I picked up the bible and basically challenged God at that point. I told Him that I was going to open the bible and, by God, he better give me some sort of sign that he hadn't abandoned my family.
So, I randomly opened the bible after my challenge and what exact page do you think was staring me in the face?
Matthew 9. The healing of the paralytic.

Like you, it kind of scared me. But it also comforted me. My brother has not been healed of his injuries but his faith has deepened over the years.

Originally posted by sdp333
HighDefinitionFilms....we sound alot alike regarding our spiritual outlook.

I guess my most vivid experience with prayer was, from the outside looking in, a little juvenile.
A little over 12 years ago, my brother was hit by a logging truck on a narrow road in Georgia. He broke his neck and was rendered a quadriplegic. The only difference between him and Christopher Reeve was that he was able to breathe on his own without the aid of a ventilator. Everything else was the same...no movement at all from the neck down. It was a devastating time for my family.
I had never been someone who prayed very much and, like you, would only attend church at E & C (Easter & Christmas).
After my brother's accident, one day I was just so down and cried all morning. I had a Bible on my nightstand.
( If your Southern, you keep a bible out in view in your home whether you read it or not. :lol

Being in such a depressed state, I picked up the bible and basically challenged God at that point. I told Him that I was going to open the bible and, by God, he better give me some sort of sign that he hadn't abandoned my family.
So, I randomly opened the bible after my challenge and what exact page do you think was staring me in the face?
Matthew 9. The healing of the paralytic.

Like you, it kind of scared me. But it also comforted me. My brother has not been healed of his injuries but his faith has deepened over the years.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother, but that is hardly a divine experience, IMO.

It's hard to open one of the new testament books without hearing something about someone doing some healing.

None of this is anything that approaches concrete proof of God, I'm afraid...

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


wow you guys have propaganda for everything anti-religion, anti-christian, anti-monotheism in the books huh?

wow, a whole video devoted to why prayers "work sometimes" ..

constantly trying to refute God. so you dont believe. so you feel that it is obvious that God isnt real. why try to shoot down everyone who mentions they'd had prayers or visions or some weird successes in the spiritual realm regarding themselves and religion and God?

this is the second time I've been compelled to reply simply based on the approach MM takes to the OP, like "oh, no sorry, what you think you believe is actually a bunch of crap and heres the scientific evidence on this here webpage!"

well gee, thx MM. it really opened my mind so much more the possibility of there being no God. I hope you convert as many as you may, at least I can say I dont push my doctrine on anyone, whatsoever. I dont push Christianity on anyone, Monotheism on anyone .. i dont tell them their religion is wrong an mine is right, or to pray more, nothing. I even tell gays they are loved by God and not to worry about the misguided Priests. So im not calling the kettle black while being a pot, youre just a black kettle.

If i saw you reply to an OP's thread discussing that OP's religious beliefs in the context of their post and point without attempting to tell them in some slight, unoffensive way that they actually have it wrong, I'd love you forever.

I agree it is annoying, but I know why they do it. I haven't had one prayer not be answered.

i find it amusing whenever someone claims to find "proof" of god. doesn't proving the existence of god, undermine the entire concept of faith?

Originally posted by scientist
i find it amusing whenever someone claims to find "proof" of god. doesn't proving the existence of god, undermine the entire concept of faith?

It does seem counter-intuitive doesn't it? It isn't though - if you look at it like this:

Having faith - develops proof of God's existence through the answers he provides to our prayers. That proof emboldens our faith - and it becomes a snowball effect.

The difficulty for many who do have faith is when their prayer "isn't answered" - in other words they didn't specifically get what they asked for...those of us who have children can understand this concept - a child expects that they are entitled to have whatever they ask for, whenever they want it. They do not want to have to depend on us for making the healthy and smart decisions for them. Teenagers even more so...they have all the answers and they know what's best for them, they don't need our wisdom or guidance.

However - the real proof of a parent's love is in the answer to the request.

"Prayer is an act of faith. Just by praying to God, you are declaring our trust in someone other than yourself. Your faith is increased as you pray and watch how God answers your prayers. God says in Jeremiah 33:3, "Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know. God is awesome in power and there is never a time when He is not beside you." Charles Stanley

-Ry

good point. I guess the real line is drawn on how you define proof. I look at it in a scientific context. if you refer to "proof" in a religious context, than I would suggest it loses all meaning.

Originally posted by HighDefinitionFilms

I have been aware of the ST JUDE NOVENA for many years...
for those who do not know, it is pretty straightforward-
a short prayer to a saint- St. Jude- that you say 9 times a day
for 9 days, and its' a prayer in which you request help in some specific way...

To date, I have used it TWICE in my life- the idea being that you only should
use it when you really need help.

HAS ANYONE here ever tried to do the St Jude novena?

If so- what were the results?

If not.... would you try it (presuming you believed in it- doing it without
belief in God would be meaningless in my opinion...)

TPM

Do you pray to this thing?



I don't pray to statues. I only pray to God. It is against my religion.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

The first prayer you did was emotionally based, and most likely your belief in the prayer is the reason it appeared to "work." you basically programmed yourself to let go of your emotional burden.

Here is my issue with saying this is not proof. I am a physician, and I study often about the placebo effect. Many of my colleagues state that a particular "treatment" doesn't work and the results are simply placebo, but the fact the patient percieves results (whether placebo or not) produces many times a demonstrable physical response that can be observed and recorded. IMO placebo is a powerful mental/emotional response that should be embraced and encouraged by the medical community, and we should learn how to best capitalize on this phenomenon. MajorMalfunction your description of this persons answered prayer sounds alot like a placebo effect, and I contend that you are right in that description, but maybe that is "God". I read once in the bible (sorry i cannot remember the chapter/verse) that "The kingdom of Heaven is with-in you". In my interpretation, this means that our subconscious is in fact the God we seek, and through prayer we tap into our subconscious with sometimes amazing results. I believe that this makes the results of prayer "proof of God" just not in the traditional sense - but no less extraordinary.

Originally posted by scientist
good point. I guess the real line is drawn on how you define proof. I look at it in a scientific context. if you refer to "proof" in a religious context, than I would suggest it loses all meaning.

Not at all. In my mind, there is only one valid definition of "proof", IMHO, and that is within a scientific context. I am an engineer...which for all intents and purposes is simply a scientist who puts theory into practice.

I side with these folks in terms of whether Science approves of, or denies, the existence of "God":

Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)

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Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.

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Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."

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Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."



[edit on 28-9-2007 by rdube02]

Great responses...

I think I may have posed the question wrong-

surely there is no way to PROVE God's being or non-being...

I guess I just wanted to offer a paranormal experience for analysis:

twice, during hard times, a specific variety of prayer that is touted
as 'never having failed' indeed did not fail me-

it did not "get" anything other than relief from the ailment or condition-
no lottery was won, etc...

So- I think I should just ask- has prayer ever worked for you?

If so, what does that mean to your spiritual worldview?

TPM

Originally posted by scientist
i find it amusing whenever someone claims to find "proof" of god. doesn't proving the existence of god, undermine the entire concept of faith?

This is one of the ultimate straw men of modern Christianity-bashing.

I could turn it round and ask additionally, "Doesn't God becoming incarnate, revealing Himself to humans, performing miracles, fulfilling prophecies, rising from the dead, continuing to appear to people, (etc) undermine the entire concept of faith by proving Himself?"

Christianity itself is not a religion of "faith" in the sense that that means blind belief in something for there is no evidence or sense. Christianity's word "faith" means "trust" and "fidelity" - according to the sense of the Greek words used every time the word crops up in scripture.

The idea of "faith" as belief pure and simple is not a tenet of scripture. A Christian of any stripe does not so much "believe" as "know".

Cheers.

reply to post by HighDefinitionFilms


You proved nothing. You obviously don't know what a miracle is either.

Maybe someone can explain the following story:

I was watching the movie The Fountain and it got me in the mood to meditate. So I went into the sunroom of my house and did just that. However soon after I began I noticed a buzzing noise. There was a fly in the room that began to annoy me, and so I got up from my meditation. I approached the insect to see where it was. When I found it I, feeling meditative, I asked it mentally to go outside (the door was open). I waited but the fly remained inside, bouncing off the window over and over. I very much believe in connecting with nature, so I decided to do a little experiment. I held out my hand and tried to focus energy on getting the fly to come to my hand so I could take it outside. I must've held out my hand for a few minutes, but the insect didn't do anything and continued buzzing against the window. So I got bored and left.... Later that day (about 2 hours), I was watching TV on the couch. I was just sitting there when suddenly a fly landed on the armrest of the couch. I kind of waved my hand trying to shoo it away but it wouldn't move. Then I remembered what I had done earlier... I then held out my hand right against the armrest. Astonishingly the fly crawled towards me and then eventually onto my hand. It kind of checked out my hand before settling and sitting still right in the center of my palm. I couldn't believe it. But, I got up and took the thing outside, the fly didn't leave my hand until I shook it off once outside. After this I felt simply amazing and astonished.

Personally I feel this is a connection with God, and maybe even a miracle if you wanna call it that. I would also call it the law of attraction.

Maybe someone can explain the odds and statistics of that. I assure you that this story is absolutely true, even though some who read this wont believe me.

I think The Oak is a bit closer to the truth here...

The placebo effect is very real. Many in the medical community can vouch for this.

Thing is, it doesn't matter whether you pray to God, Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Hope + expectation = results. Try it some time. Hope for something, instead of pray. If you can invest the same kind of emotion and expectation in receiving a positive answer, then it's the same thing.

Praying and getting what you want isn't proving God's existence, but rather proving that string theory may actually have something to it.

When I was a kid, my mother was injuried and lost all hearing in her left ear. As she got older (and sicker) she started losing hearing in her right ear also. She wore a hearing aide in her right ear. The doctors said she was completely deaf on her left side and 80% deaf on her right side. Needless to say, the hearing aide didn't really help much. Even with the hearing aide she would still have the TV turned up full blast and had a adapter added to her phone so she could talk to people. Talking to her face to face always felt like I was yelling at her so she could hear me.

When my mother was very sick, I said a lot of prayers for her. I had accepted that according to the doctors, she was going to die. Most of my prayers consisted of asking God to please let her go peacefully...that God's will be done in her life. I didn't ask for anything for myself, other than the strength to cope with losing my mom.

I loved my mom very much and I missed all the times we used to spend together before she got sick. There was still so much I wanted to talk to her about and say to her, but with her not being able to hear it was impossible. During one of my many prayers, I found myself telling God how much I wanted to be able to talk to her before she passed away.

The next morning, I was in the kitchen making coffee. We had her in a hospital bed (set up in the living room). She slept a LOT and when she was awake, she didn't seem to know a lot about what was going on. While I was making the coffee she woke up and called to me to please stop making so much noise it was keeping her awake. I was more than a little surprised to hear her voice. I went into the living room and she was half sitting up in the bed. I glanced at the bed side table where she kept her hearing aide and it was sitting in the same place it had been for the past week or so.
I asked her if she heard me and she said yes. I couldn't believe it!! We sat and talked, laughed, and told stories all that day. It was the most wonderful thing. Later that night she got on the phone and called my brother and talked to him without the adapter on the phone. It was amazing! I was so happy I was able to tell her all the things that had been on my mind and I let her know over and over how much I loved her.

When the nurse (hospice) came by I told her about my mom and she said it wasn't possible for her to be able to hear, but she was able to carry on a conversation with her without yelling.

By the next day her hearing started to fade and she began sleeping again. She passed away the following day.

I still miss her, but I thank God for hearing my prayer and answering in a way I never expected.

So YES, there is a God (a wonderful loving God) and he DOES answer prayers.

~Marilyn