Hidden Mind

Freud was the first one who was speaking about the role of the 'preconscious agency' :

Everything conscious has an unconscious preliminary stage;
whereas what is unconscious may remain at that stage and
nevertheless claim to be regarded as having the full value of a
psychical process. The unconscious is the true psychical
reality; in its innermost nature it is as much unknown to us as
the reality of the external world, and it is as incompletely
presented by the data of consciousness as is the external
world by the communications of our sense organs.

Than German physicist Helmholtz, measuring the conduction of electrical signals in nerves - found out that responding to a precived stimulans is occurring first unconsciously.

German neurologist Hans Kornhuber, after extensive experiments. found out, something, that he called ' 'readiness potential' in the brain, occured a second BEFORE the voluntary movement!

After hundreds of trials, Kornhuber found that, invariably, each movement was preceded by a little blip in the electrical record from the brain, a spark of free will! He called this potential in the brain the "readiness potential" and found that it occurred one second before the voluntary movement.

1985 Benjamin Libet wnt a step further and conduct a series of experiments measuring micro-volt brain activity: he asked volunteers 'to lift a finger whenever they FEEL urge to do so' and amazingly, 'readiness potential' appeared 200 milliseconds BEFORE a person fell the urge to move fingers!!!

1) The interval between neural arousal (measured by the RP) and
motor action takes 500ms (1/2 second).

2) But Libet's subjects report being unaware of deciding to move
until 350ms after the RP. That is, conscious awareness of impulse
to move does not occur until 350ms after RP brain activity has
begun. Our back brain readies movement 350 ms before our left
brain becomes aware of our impulse to move.

free will


So, conscious awareness is lagging out time behind the electrical response in the brain - electrical signal in the cortex are PRECEDING conscious awareness of the movement and intent to move!

How could than, our actions be conscious and free ( voluntary ) - when it seems ( according to scientific research ) that 'readiness potential' indicate: 'our' actions are determinate preconsciously before!?

Are we just executing something decided without our conscious free will to act, because it seems that we are aware on what is going on - half a second later? Who is in control here? What are philosophical and legal implication on this? Am I responsible or evolution made me irresponsible? Actually - who am I than?

free will is exercised unconsciously without awareness










[edit on 11-9-2007 by blue bird]

Interesting topic, I'm surprised no one has replied.

I'd like to ask, if consciousness doesn't make choices and is preceded by unconscious brain functions why would it evolve in the first place? I'm sure consciousness requires a whole neuronal system of it's own and lots of energy to exist.

reply to post by DarkSide



Thank you DarkSide!

Question you ask is really obvious one - and it seems like conscious mind is walking where the road ( set by unconscious mind )is leading to.


I don't know if you are familiar with Helpless Spectator Theory ( T. H. Huxley ) where conscious mind is something like mere spectator unable to do anything.

I read it somewhere that conscious mind could never set on one thing - due to many options and could not decide rationally.

Maybe conscious is just a ephiphenomenon of matter ...byproduct.... - like heat from wires!? Or maybe what we call unconscious mind is just brain neural activity and it is de terminating everything. Like AI !?

Originally posted by blue bird
Question you ask is really obvious one - and it seems like conscious mind is walking where the road ( set by unconscious mind )is leading to.

But consciousness obviously gives a selective advantage to individuals therefore consciousness must be able to influence behavior. If not you could remove the circuits in the neo-cortex that generate conscious thought and the person would continue living exactly as if nothing had changed. I don't think evolution would favor a useless system in the brain. The human brain requires gigantic amounts of energy to function correctly and it was only possible because of human morphology.

I don't know if you are familiar with Helpless Spectator Theory ( T. H. Huxley ) where conscious mind is something like mere spectator unable to do anything.

I think I vaguely heard about it. I'll look it up.

Maybe conscious is just a ephiphenomenon of matter ...byproduct.... - like heat from wires!? Or maybe what we call unconscious mind is just brain neural activity and it is de terminating everything. Like AI !?

Well there are lots of parts of the brain that function independently from consciousness, like emotions, heartbeat regulations, reflexes etc.

This reminds me of tests done at parapsychology clinics. I don't know the name of the experiment but they sit folk down in front of a screen and show photo of a whole variety of subjects/things. When there's a nasty pic, could be a rotten dead sheep or a roadkill or whatever, the instruments they've connected to the viewer shows that they feel revolted a split second before they actually see it.

From evolutionary standpoint seems that unconscious mind is doing all priorities for survival and our well being. Our conscious mind no nothing of blood pressure, muscle tension, digesting, ...

Can we start here: conscious mind forget a lot - unconscious never.In hypnosis absolutely everything can be retrieved. My question is: do I remember things - that my unconscious mind want me to remember?

And another question: what other stuff is going in unconscious mind and we do not have a clue? Obviously it contains a much larger part of 'me' and I am simply not aware. And we see here, with exact experiments, that things start there !? Where is my free will to lift the right finger on my own !?

And we think that we are in trouble on consciousness and awareness questions...

Originally posted by blue bird
Obviously it contains a much larger part of 'me' and I am simply not aware.

That is a very interesting statement.

Has it not been showen that the outside reality only modulates our internal world slightly.

Interesting, serious martial artists and some athletes are very much aware of this even if they don't understand it. The concept is called mushin, it is sometimes called no mind.
Conscious thought is too slow for hand to hand combat as it is for some sports that involve fast reaction timing, it hinders the subconscious flow of the mind. Everyone has experienced this to some extent, for example someone throws an object at you and in the right state of mind or rather no mind and you spontaneously react, usually to your own surprise.
I think most have experienced driving in an altered state of consciousness, you can drive some distance in sort of a trance, meanwhile you are running on auto pilot you react spontaneously and when snapping back to conscious thought the details of the journey are cloudy or even non existent.
Even stranger is the fact that someone proficient in mushin is able to react to things that are outside of the five senses.

Wow this is freaky. So if we can control this ability, or unlock it, then we can move and act faster than anyone else? This would seriouly give you an advantage over everyone else. If only we can react from the unconscious.

Not just that - what if whole 'program' ( unconscious mind looks like computer program with all possible data ) can be altered is some unbelievable way?

What if 'collective unconscious' ( Jung ) can be altered/ re-programmed!? Could that new 'software' result is something completely different..language, culture, ideas?

Originally posted by blue bird
Not just that - what if whole 'program' ( unconscious mind looks like computer program with all possible data ) can be altered is some unbelievable way?

What if 'collective unconscious' ( Jung ) can be altered/ re-programmed!? Could that new 'software' result is something completely different..language, culture, ideas?

But wouldn't that be the unconscious reprogramming itself, since we are only lagged out spectators?

Originally posted by blue bird
Not just that - what if whole 'program' ( unconscious mind looks like computer program with all possible data ) can be altered is some unbelievable way?

What if 'collective unconscious' ( Jung ) can be altered/ re-programmed!? Could that new 'software' result is something completely different..language, culture, ideas?

I personaly believe that this is happening on a grand scale allready trough advertising, film, music and other means.

Television is a perfect tool for this.
Looking at the nature of telivision you will see that all the images go first in to the unconcious mind.
Your eyes see only a line racing over the screen (old tv's) and your brain makes a whole pictures out of this again, your subconcious mind.
After that it;s get fed to the concious mind.

So in my opinion, reprogramming of this unconcious mind is possible and allready done.

reply to post by DarkSide



True!

But - but can it be triggered somehow by something, as jaamaan belive !?

Is there a bifurcation point (changes in the pattern in nonlinear dynamic ) where system split into two modes of behavior, that was previously displayed as one mode !?

The science of nonlinear dynamics
reveals that there are bifurcation points in the temporal evolution of very com-
plex systems at which a very minor alteration can cause one or another of the
macroscopic competing influences to win out and flip the system into one or
another state.
Although nonlinear dynamical systems are still conceptualized
mathematically as being philosophically deterministic — i.e. it is assumed (in
the interests of allowing the use of various mathematical techniques to describe
the system) that if it were possible to turn back time and rerun any given situation
again with all the conditions exactly the same the outcome would be the same —
the complexity of the real-world situation is such that at bifurcation points there
is what could be considered to be a genuine possibility that the thing could go
either way.

source
If we have conscious and unconscious mind - is there a third stage: 'super - mind' !?

[edit on 13-9-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by blue bird


If we have conscious and unconscious mind - is there a third stage: 'super - mind' !?

[edit on 13-9-2007 by blue bird]

There seems to be some kind of third stage.
Some kind of collective knowledge that we can tap into or collective learning.

A quick lookup found me this :

www.worldwidenlightenment.com...

My conclusion is that we all have a connection through a collective consciousness. It just goes to show that you alone have the power to reach the masses of world. This collective conscious is accessible to everyone on the planet and even unconsciously, we tap into this infinite knowledge of infinite information through our oneness.
........
Therefore, in conclusion, I would say the individuality side of things is a complete illusion. An illusion set into place for us to identify with ourselves as parts because with out it then this experience would not provide fulfillment.

Thank you jaamaan for link!

But Libet findings are still mind blowing - who is than the agent? It looks that our conscious mind, 'me' of whom I am aware is rather is just executing something 'decided' by that, I ( first person prospective ) simply do not have any means to know about.

If there is ( and experiments confirmed that ) a 350 ms where readiness potential precede even the conscious urge to move hand - than temporal causality is totally reversed. My 'free will' in reality occurs backwards in time!

If there is no causality primacy of conscious mind - there is no free will but emergent behavior, objectively - however to first person experience there is no doubt, that 'I' am the one that decided, on my own, to lift my fingers.


Arthur Schopenhauer on the the  puzzle of free will:

" But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns...."

But Libet is saying- that free will still exist: if unconscious mind decide that we are going to lift finger, we can still, in last minute cancel this decision. Free will become something not like free will to do, but free will not to do. Interesting! Can this 'paradox' be solved this way?

This brings me to quantum mechanic ( coz I desperately need back my free will ): instead of mechanic neurology of he brain deciding and taking my volatile action from me - can we look at the brain as being 'hot-wired' all the time, meaning that all the possibilities ( Heisenberg ) are present and are manifesting as build up readiness potential!?

Originally posted by blue bird
Not just that - what if whole 'program' ( unconscious mind looks like computer program with all possible data ) can be altered is some unbelievable way?

What if 'collective unconscious' ( Jung ) can be altered/ re-programmed!? Could that new 'software' result is something completely different..language, culture, ideas?

On this subject, check this topic
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Czech speedway rider knocked out in crash wakes up speaking perfect English
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In quantum physics the “free choices” made by human subjects are regarded as subjectively controllable input variable. Bohr emphasized, that “the mathematical structure of the quantum mechanical formalism offers the appropriate latitude” for these free choices. But the need for this strategic move goes deeper than the mere fact that contemporary quantum theory fails to specify how these choices are made. For if in the von Neumann formulation one does seek to determine the cause of the “free choice”within the representation of the physical brain of the chooser one finds that one issystematically blocked from determining the cause of the choice by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which asserts that the locations and velocities of, say, the calciumions, are simultaneous unknowable to the precision needed to determine what the choice will be. Thus one is faced not merely with a practical unknowability of the causal originof the “free choices,” but with an unknowability in principle that stems from the uncertainty principle itself, which lies at the base of quantum mechanics. There is thus a deep root in quantum theory for the idea that the origin of the “free choices” lies not in the physical description alone, and for the consequent policy of treating these “freechoices” as empirical inputs that are selected by agents, and enter into the causal structure via Process 1.

Materialist ontology draws no support from contemporary physics, and is in factcontradicted by it. The notion that all physical behavior is explainable in principle solelyin terms of a local mechanical process is a holdover from physical theories of an earlierera. It was rejected by the founders of quantum mechanics, who introduced crucially intothe basic dynamical equations choices that are not determined by local mechanicalprocesses, but are attributed rather to human agents. These orthodox quantum equations,applied to human brains in the way suggested by John von Neumann, provide for a causalaccount of recent psycho-physical and neuropsychological data. In this account brainbehavior that appears to be caused by mental effort is actually caused by mental effort:the causal efficacy of mental effort is no illusion. Our willful choices enter neither asredundant nor epiphenomenal effects, but rather as fundamental dynamical elements thathave the causal efficacy that the objective data appear to assign to them. A shift to this pragmatic approach that incorporates agent-based choices as primaryempirical input variables may be as important to progress in neuroscience andpsychology as it was to progress in atomic physics.

www.newdualism.org...

This theory also makes use of the "agent" in the role of consciousness and free will.

When I say readiness potential is 'hot-wired' ( bulled up ) all the time - I mean, in the ontological sense, it is prepared for many otucomes. Heisenberg possibilities as inherited in matter/substance/physical reality - and not in phenomenal events in human agent/collapsing the wave function and 'creating the reality, and once outcome is executed, possibilities are reduced to than one outcome, that is chosen.

Is our conscious mind 'creating' the reality ( non-deterministic von Neumann approach )? I don't think so. For example ( as was mentioned in the thread ) how many bodily functions are we not aware of, our conscious mind is not aware of cardio-vascular stuff going on!? This are pretty much unaffected events by our conscious mind.

But the question does not go away: who or what is the agent deciding one particular outcome? Quantum Theory also does not have that answer:

The Copenhagen and von Neumann formulations of quantum theory are non-
deterministic. Both specify that human choices enter into the dynamics, but
neither specifies the causal origins of these choices. The question thus arises:
what determines these choices?

Events are happening before (neurological processes in the brain ) we become aware !? In one world: we live in the past! Is this a question of time?Reversed causality?

In favor of conscious mind being just a epiphenomenon ( brain being the one who is producing mental phenomena) through neurology activity:

BEIJING (Reuters) - Scientists in eastern China say they have succeeded in controlling the flight of pigeons with micro electrodes planted in their brains, state media reported on Tuesday.

Scientists at the Robot Engineering Technology Research Center at Shandong University of Science and Technology said their electrodes could command them to fly right or left or up or down, Xinhua news agency said.

"The implants stimulate different areas of the pigeon's brain according to signals sent by the scientists via computer, and force the bird to comply with their commands," Xinhua said.

bird-brained scientists learn to fly pigeons

www.reuters.com...


Can it be done to humans? Can we be computer simulation ( which would explain time delay and reverse causality)? Would we feel a difference or we would think ( as we do now ) that we are rising particular finger on our own ?


[edit on 15-9-2007 by blue bird]

I expect to photograph thoughts," announced Mr. Tesla

1933-09-10: Tremendous New Power Soon to be Unleashed
at

www.tesla.hu...


Instead of computer screen or TV its a coil or beam focus going
straight to the brain by passing the optical system.


Tesla's non Hertz waves has a sort of gotcha.
Some one has the technology and is not telling.
Do you think the brain has the same type of waves.
Well yes they do match brain waves and will read your mind.
As well as other mind control possibilities.
Well if not extant, then the last 60+ years since Tesla's death
was wasted.

ED: I do think that taking over control of the body and
eliminating free will can and may have been achieved.



[edit on 4/25/2010 by TeslaandLyne]