NIST and Popular Mechanics Investigator Asks for an independent review!

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST’s investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.

In my opinion, the WTC investigation by NIST falls short of expectations by not definitively finding cause, by not sufficiently linking recommendations of specificity to cause, by not fully invoking all of their authority to seek facts in the investigation, and by the guidance of government lawyers to deter rather than develop fact finding

www.opednews.com...


Even I as a skeptic will be interested to see NIST's response to this!!


Edit to Change to correct Link

[edit on 22-8-2007 by CaptainObvious]

It's been said by others before here that not all of NIST's engineers must be bad eggs. Glad someone finally dug up the 'intestinal fortitude' to say something over there.

Keep in mind, this doctor does not agree with any type of controlled demolition hypothisis.

Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST’s conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives. “If you go to World Trade Center One, nine minutes before its collapse, there was a line of smoke that puffed out. This is one of the basis of the ‘conspiracy theories’ that says the smoke puffing out all around the building is due to somebody setting off an explosive charge. Well, I think, more likely, it’s one of the floors falling down.”

www.opednews.com...

Very interesting read. He walks a fine line there though, and all of his criticism could have come straight from this board. Particularly to bring up WTC 7, which he surely knows is not being addressed by NIST because they have no way to explain it.

He says his own theory of the collapse of the towers is the weakening of the trusses by fire--essentially another version of the pancake collapse. He talks about the state-of-the-art computer modeling NIST did for their theory, to the exclusion of others, and how it was not reproducible.

Frankly, just running his version of the collapse in my own head, it has some merit to it in initiating collapse, but after that fails completely to explain everything else, so he falls into the same trap as NIST--don't look too long, too deep.

Finally, one point of his article was very pertinent--his stress upon the value of eyewitness testimony in establishing timelines.

this would be fabulous if anyone took his advice, but sadly i dont see it happening and if it did, unless they decide it was a cd or an inside job, theres still going to be that group of people that, regardless of what the investigation DOES conclude, will say it wasnt a real investigation or that they were paid off by the govt or blah blah blah and we're right back wehre we were.

so i have some questions about this idea, and these arent directed at the fense sitters, or even the "it was probably the govt" types, this is for the rabid "it was the govt no doubt about it" crowd.

1) what constitutes an 'independant' review or investigation to you?
2)who would pay for it? as we all know if it was paid for with tax dollars many would claim it wasnt independant
3) if an explaination was put forth taht didnt involve explosives but was able to explain the collapses due to observed events and didnt violate any laws of physics, would you guys even believe them?

i could go on but those are the big three. although i FULLY support a new and ideally independant investigation. i dont think they got it all right. (and plz no one come along and say they didnt get any of it right, there are enough of you that quote nist as fact when it suits you) but i think the reason is because THEY DONT KNOW and only published the reports as fast as they could becuase they felt the need to tell us SOMETHING. so if they were givnen the time money and resources to do it all over, but this time keep the damn lawyers and govt officials OUT OF IT, we may get a more realistic interpretation. also, just for kicks, i think they should totally investigate the possiblilites of CD. i may not think it was a Cd, and ive shown pretty good fact based theories why i think that, but ive also said from the get go i could possibly be totally wrong. so why not investigate? i hope im not wrong more for the implications of what that could mean than my own pride (dont think anyones ever died from eating humble pie). but hell, lets look at ALL the possibilites. hell, lets investigate the whole mini nuke and death rays from space theories while we're at it. lets rule out EVERYTHING and find out exactly what it was.

hell, if i ever get rich, ill fund an investigation myself, even if its only a bunch of you smart mofo's from ats (both sides of course) and we'll do our own tests (so wish me luck in my quest to get rich )

I also would like to see a new investigation, but as already mentioned it cost money to do it. If it's going to be my tax dollars that pay for it and they do another shabby job, then it is not worth it. Unfortunately I agree that I think we would end up where we are now, but kudos to this guy anyway.

Let's just consider for a moment that another independent investigation were done and there was strong evidence of not only a CD but government involvement. It would involve a little more than some people admitting they were wrong and apologizing. I can imagine what would happen to this country, It would be nothing short of a revolutionary movement and the government would be torn apart. Even though it may be overdue, the government is not going to let that happen. So even another investigation regardless of who does it will come to the same conclusion that the official story is what happened.

I doubt the whole truth will ever be acknowledged by our government, so all we can do is continue to think for ourselves.

Originally posted by Damocles


hell, if i ever get rich, ill fund an investigation myself, even if its only a bunch of you smart mofo's from ats (both sides of course) and we'll do our own tests

(so wish me luck in my quest to get rich

)

Power Ball this weekend is 300 million! Thats shoud about cover it

So, I guess this is the proof I needed when I've been saying all along. The NIST report was never peer reviewed. Go figure.

reply to post by Griff


Griff... what took you so long to comment on this??? I thought you'd be all over this one!!

This is why we need an independant investigation that is open to the public. Instead of hiding all the details, photos, videos, and interviews, unclassify every bit of information and stop the conspiracy theories. The reason that there are conspiracy theories about 9/11, is because of the amount of holes in the NIST, Popular Mechanics, and Conspiracy Theorist's hypotheses.

I recently watched the History channel's show debunking Loose Change and other sources. I thought it was rediculous and eventually stopped watching it. They were very careful about what theories to include, and what points of certain theories to leave out.

Their "experts" were employees of Popular Mechanics. A magazine. We, on the ct side, have doctorate holding physicists, structural engineers, pilots, etc... to analyze what the govt. decides to release.

Hiding information feeds us, I agree. Is it an agenda to feed us tidbits of information now and again to keep us interested, and not keep an eye out to whats going on elsewhere? I have hundreds of hours of research into 9/11, (thats about how long it takes to read the NIST documents, btw:lol.

So yeah, I hope Dr. Quintiere has enough pull to get something started. What do you know, another doctor on our side.

Great find CaptainObvious! :beer:

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
reply to post by Griff

 

Griff... what took you so long to comment on this??? I thought you'd be all over this one!!

Been busy with work and studying. I'm surprised you were the one to bring this up. Nice find.

Responding to a comment from a NIST representative in the audience, Dr. Quintiere said, “I found that throughout your whole investigation it was very difficult to get a clear answer. And when anyone went to your advisory panel meetings or hearings, where they were given five minutes to make a statement; they could never ask any questions. And with all the commentary that I put in, and I spent many hours writing things, and it would bore people if I regurgitated all of that here, I never received one formal reply.”

I found that interesting CO. I keep hearing you claim that engineers and such had an chance to ask questions. If I'm wrong in this, I'll stand corrected but I'm pretty sure I have heard you state this. Thanks.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Keep in mind, this doctor does not agree with any type of controlled demolition hypothisis.

Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST’s conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives. “If you go to World Trade Center One, nine minutes before its collapse, there was a line of smoke that puffed out. This is one of the basis of the ‘conspiracy theories’ that says the smoke puffing out all around the building is due to somebody setting off an explosive charge. Well, I think, more likely, it’s one of the floors falling down.”

www.opednews.com...

If tomorrow someone came up with a video of GWB flying the planes by R/C and explaining it the whole time I suspect about 85% of the "debunker's" would say "I knew it all along, it was so obvious." Its hard to agree with a group that is constantly made out to be quacks and radicals. I wonder why they havent just said, ok lets have all the top "truthers" come up on CSPAN and ask their questions and we will answer them and put an end to all this. But they dont, they answer with things like "moron" and say your a "loon" for asking. Or my favorite "its classified and matters to national security" Yea a video of the plane hitting the pentagon would really screw the nation. I mean Osama would have a field day with that.

They could release a good film of the pentagon and shut ALOT of people up in 2 seconds. But they havent... in 6 years. We all know there are cameras in the urinals at the pentagon and they surely have great video of it... but they wont release it. Odd. As a matter of fact the only video we have of the pentagon was released only AFTER some of it was "leaked". Of course it doenst show jack.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by shug7272]

Originally posted by shug7272

If tomorrow someone came up with a video of GWB flying the planes by R/C and explaining it the whole time I suspect about 85% of the "debunker's" would say "I knew it all along, it was so obvious." Its hard to agree with a group that is constantly made out to be quacks and radicals. I wonder why they havent just said, ok lets have all the top "truthers" come up on CSPAN and ask their questions and we will answer them and put an end to all this. But they dont, they answer with things like "moron" and say your a "loon" for asking. Or my favorite "its classified and matters to national security"

Yea a video of the plane hitting the pentagon would really screw the nation. I mean Osama would have a field day with that.

This is a hypothetical situation that will never happen, nor can you assume the percentage of skeptics that will jump on the truther bandwagon.

There have been many requests for debates with skeptics vs. truthers. Here are a few:
Mark Roberts vs. Dylan Avery/ Jason Bermas

Google Video Link

PM vs. Loose Change (this is part 1 of 5) they are all over Google/Youtube


James H. Fetzer, of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, debates Mark Roberts in another video. I dont want to flood this thread with tons of debates, but they are out there. To be blunt, the skeptics pretty much crush the truthers.(although I admit that I am biased)

Originally posted by shug7272
They could release a good film of the pentagon and shut ALOT of people up in 2 seconds. But they havent... in 6 years.

Ok.. allow me to assume here... 99% of thruthers will cry "CGI"




[edit: fixed video bbcode]

[edit on 7-9-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

The main problem with the 'truthers' (as on this site) is that most WANT the government to be guilty and are NOT interested in FACTS.

That is why....time and time again.....there are doctored photos constantly being shown and the people stating 'this is real', doctored video and audio, statements taken out of context and things which are just made-up.

Real truthers would/should want to see true facts and not hypotheticals or imaginings.

That is the problem, the 'real' truthers are quickly dismissed as 'pro bush/governement' or they have to 'tip-toe' around on this site.

Frankly with all the same material/arguements being made over and over again after being throughly debunked just de-tracts from the 'true' search for facts.

There are definitely some 'trolls' on this site, who waste everyones time, becasue they don't actually want proof/facts. The want the Governemnt to be guilty and would not accept any other outcome.

Originally posted by ferretman2
The main problem with the 'truthers' (as on this site) is that most WANT the government to be guilty and are NOT interested in FACTS.

facts like a massive terror drill that mimics the live actual terror?
facts like what temperature a metal flows at, and what temperature it glows yellow?
facts like a president who sits and reads an upside down kindergarten book while the country is under attack?
facts like anthrax from the american military being used to terrorize the whitehouse?
facts like the extreme not-reporting about wtc7 6.6 second descent?
facts like no-bid contracts awarded to haliburton?
facts like rummy saying their were "missiles AND planes" used by the the terrorists, and flight 93 being shot down?
facts like the underground temperatures of over 1000F which burned for at least THREE MONTHS!?
facts like the consistency of the thousands of tons of ultrafine dust? (ie. concrete, iron, cellulose, skin, gypsum, asbestos, etc...., or in other words, EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING in the towers was turned into dust particles less than 60 microns across within seconds)
facts like bush REFUSING to testify ALONE, and REFUSING TO TESTIFY under oath, and REFUSING TO TESTIFY in PUBLIC to the 9/11 commission?
facts like the complete omission of the FACT that WTC7 even fell down at all on 9/11 from the 9/11 commission's "all-encompassing, exhaustive" report?
facts like flashes and every single news outlet reporting LIVE that a "secondary explosion" brought down the towers?
facts like steel will sag and distort plastically when heated before it fails instantly and catastrophically?
facts like something that crushes itself with gravity should leave a pyramid shaped pile of debris?
facts like the government not showing any of the MANY videos they have of what occurred at the pentagon?
facts like mike vreeland locked in a jail cell in toronto slipping a sealed envelope to the guards before 9/11 which warned something would happen?
facts like osama bin laden NOT being connected to 9/11 by the FBI?
facts like "tim osman" aka osama bin laden being a CIA asset?

i haven't got all day, but the cognizant will recognize the relevant patterns.

[edit on 7-9-2007 by billybob]

Ferretman2.

Although I agree with your rant somewhat, what does that have to do with the OP? Or what we are discussing here?

reply to post by CaptainObvious


I wish they still had the above top secret award. You'd get my vote for this CO.

I gave you a star though (like that matters).

Originally posted by ferretman2
The main problem with the 'truthers' (as on this site) is that most WANT the government to be guilty and are NOT interested in FACTS.

Honestly, most 9/11 truth people I know came to their conclusions wanting to first disbelieve what they were starting to discern. Again, this is personal and anecdotal but to almost a person that I know who would be labeled a "truther" by the neo-conservatives they wanted very much to believe the official conspiracy theory and after study simply could not reject their evaluations of the information available including the peculiar absence of some information.

I have found these conclusions are quite varied with conclusions ranging from "the Mossad did it" to "the Saudi royal family did it" or to "it was an inside job" or to the position that "the official story of the 9/11 Commission is simply not credible."

(I leave out "the Reptoids did it" because I don't actually know anyone who has come to that evaluation of 9/11.)

The call for a full and independent review is an excellent development, and it should only frighten those who have something to hide. I am very grateful that this individual wants a reconsideration of evidence and an inclusion of WTC 7 in that evaluation.

This is a little off topic but this 9/11 forum has a slower turnover rate than the Aliens and Ufo's forum, for example, so hope y'all don't mind me saying so in this thread but after all these years after avoiding 9/11 conspiracy information because, quite frankly, like probably most people, I just didn't want to even go there again as I found that day so traumatic, I just didn't want to re-live it all by even watching old video's of those planes ramming into those buildings.
But now six years have gone by and this coming Sept. 11th falls on the same day of the week -- a Tues. I'm sure this is just a coincidence but well.... for first time ever I'm finding myself keenly interested in finding out everything I can about what REALLY happened on that day and I don't think I'm alone in this sort of 'breaking of the fog' thing about what happened on that day but now after researching non-stop for a couple of days on all of this I'm to find myself finding answers to questions I've been wondering about for years now and it ain't good. We've got trouble folks -- BIG TROUBLE but I'm sure many of you here are way ahead of me on that! All I know is when I was watching one video last night with Bush speaking in it about that time when he saw the first plane ramming into the first tower ON THE MORNING OF 9/11 and knowing darn well that he saw no such video until later that day or the next, I burst out into a string of obscentities that bubbled out from my gut somewhere -- but let me tell you! it was cathartic. He's such a LIAR!
So like Pell sort of implied - the vast majority of us don't want to know the truth because we're afraid we just won't be able to handle it -- and how true that is! My only hope is that these guys will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law someday and I fervently pray this will happen before the next Presidential election!


[edit on 7-9-2007 by Palasheea]