Calling all Christianity debunkers

ok guys calm down, just hear me out, Im not here to convert you but....
I am so sick of hearing and reading these supposed researchers talking about the similarities of Jesus and Horus or Quetzalcoatl, Kirishna, Virishna, Buddha, Zoraster, Mithras or any of the other 80 or so such deities. They speak of it like it is such old news, when, in fact, anyone who has ever scratched the surface researching these claims, almost immediately finds them to be simply wrong, or in some cases, like David Ickes “Virishna” (pg. 89 of The Biggest Secret) wholly unsubstantiated.

When I hear or read people using this claim to add credence to their position I know that they have simply parroted their opinions from some well liked author or speaker, although many of them tend to talk about their tireless hours of research.
I Challenge anyone who makes these claims to show me the evidence of the similarities after reading through the links I provide below, and furthermore, I challenge them to look to see if they may have jumped so readily on this bandwagon without checking their facts first because they themselves have a “pre conceived notion” complete with dogma and faith and all the things they say they hate. I don’t intend to convert anyone to my religion. I just want people to see they are being straight up lied to with this.
www.thedevineevidence.com...
This site handles the major deities and does so with tremendous references.

The above site doesn’t go into Quetzalcoatl very deeply, because of the obvious problem with Christianity being influenced by something from The “New World” not being technically feasible. I however, am quite the conspiracy theorist, and will give the benefit of the doubt to the two hemisphere’s having pre-columbian connections, so here is a thorough debunking on the Quetzalcoatl /Jesus similarities from another source:
www.tektonics.org...

I like the next site because no stone is left unturned in his search for more and more “Christ myths” to debunk he has about 80 claims looked in to here:
kingdavid8.com...

Now for David Icke’s “Virishna” I wish there was more information to go on, but there is no such deity, at least in our earth’s currently verifiable history. It appears when Mr Icke parroted Tim C. Leedom’s “The book your church doesn’t want you to read” he didn’t bother with nasty business of fact checking. Here is one account of the hunt for Virishna from an earlier source:
kingdavid8.com...

The fact remains however that much like Dan Browns “Da Vinci Code” even though thoroughly debunked the concepts remain widely believed by those who WANT to hear it, and when these lies are sprinkled in with truths about the New World Order, the illuninati, and the coming world police state, it give credence where none is deserved to this notion. This principal has been applied to a new “truth movie” called ZEITGEIST but The same thing is used by Icke, and Michael Tsarion and many other people as well. I feel that the people taking over this planet know that certain truths coming out is an inevitability and so they guide you by using the information itself into at least disbelieving Christianity (which, in this writers opinion is the one thing that would give us authority over these Satanists) This is most evident in the work of people Like Zecheriah Sitchin who has been embarrassingly debunked by Dr Michel Heiser sitchiniswrong.com... and when you look at how and why he lied it makes you question why he has gone to such great lengths to propagate the view he has, a view which I might add is indispensable to Mike Tsarion and the others like him It is also interesting to note that Arizona Wilder was quoted by Mr Icke as a known Disinformation agent who participated in the blood rituals she describes….interesting.

Originally posted by amenti
www.thedevineevidence.com...
This site handles the major deities and does so with tremendous references.

This site also uses the bible to prove the bible. I got about 2 paragraphs in (the red text) when it said:

An important fact to keep in mind while reading this section is the approximate 300 detailed Messianic prophecies regarding the life,
death, and ministry of Jesus in the Old Testament.

Sorry, but you can't use the bible to prove the bible correct.

www.tektonics.org...

I've never correlated Q with Jesus so I'll let that one go.

I like the next site because no stone is left unturned in his search for more and more “Christ myths” to debunk he has about 80 claims looked in to here:
kingdavid8.com...

This site looks interesting. Thanks for posting it.

kingdavid8.com...

David Icke?

Nice post and I can't wait to see other reponses.

i was reading that first link... and it seems that something is amiss. whoever authored it seems to forget that there are several accounts for the figures presented (maybe even dozens in some instances) because mythology wasn't purely doctrinal in each of the situations.

and the author seemingly fails to mention the cultic dionysus in favor of the more classical greek interpretation of dionysus.

just looking at it, the person doesn't even know much of the argument connecting dionysus to jesus

Dionysus is mostly known as the patron god of wine, though he was considered the Greek and Roman patron of many titles. This allows critics to
make the illogical connection between Dionysus being the god of wine and Jesus drinking wine.

the connection is, in fact, the transmutation of water into wine.

and they still admit that the characters share many attributes. nobody has ever argued that jesus was completely identical to horus, dionysus, or mithras... they just state that there are glaring similarities.

amenti,

I suggest you read Bart Ehrman book "Misquoting Jesus".

Bart D. Ehrman is a New Testament scholar and an expert on early Christianity. He received his Ph.D and M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary where he studied under Bruce Metzger. He currently serves as the chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He was the President of the Southeast Region of the Society of Biblical Literature, and worked closely as an editor on a number of the Society's publications. Currently, he co-edits the series New Testament Tools and Studies.

link

Ehrman says the modern Bible was shaped by mistakes and intentional alterations that were made by early scribes who copied the texts. In the introduction to Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman writes that when he came to understand this process 30 years ago, it shifted his way of thinking about the Bible. He had been raised as an Evangelical Christian.

link

The fact is no one can truly know what the original text of bible said because there are no original surviving text of the bible.

That being said I think there are some great lessons to be learned from the altered and edited bible and I do think there is a creator of all that is and we all do have an existence after this physical experience.

Plato [who taught that there is a more perfect, non-material realm of existence].

link

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

and the author seemingly fails to mention the cultic dionysus in favor of the more classical greek interpretation of dionysus.

come on guys I thought you could do better than this. are you giving me that all those authors have made connection where they don’t exist for their own dogmatic comfort?

I wouldn’t have expected the " you cant use the bible to prove the bible" business so early in the going, mainly because the people I am debunking are using known records of all parties involved, to make the claims in the first place. can I not use any Hindu texts to get a profile of their gods either?

come on

i did misspell illuminati and I was trying to edit that post also because I made it sound like Icke was at the blood rituals when I was trying to say that she (wilder) had implicated Sitchin.

Cool links.

The entire issue is a red herring though as speculating about similarities of deities can't prove or disprove anything about the Bible. It's difficult to "prove" a negative. The burden of proof is on those claiming the Bible is the word of god, and they haven't been able to prove anything of the sort. The entire fulfilled prophesy concept is a shell game because all the writers of the New Testament knew what was in the Old Testament already, so making something look like it was fulfilling a prophesy was ridiculously easy to do. Hell, just read the first five books and you'll understand the original purpose of the Bible...LAND.

Occam's Razor: "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

So either god made world in six days about 6000 years ago, made Eve from Adams rib, parted the Red Sea, and oh, picked one little tribe of all the people on Earth he created to be his only people, then promise those people the "promised" land which other people happened to be living on and commanding them to go kill them all to get the promised land, or a more simple explanation...Genesis and Exodus are a big ole human justification for taking other people's land. Same thing goes for Jesus - either he was god-man who was resurrected from the dead but no one has seen since or people embellished or made up stories around a man who tried to reclaim the throne but was crucified after being arrested.

There's no proof of any of it, just common sense or the lack thereof.

Originally posted by Amenti
come on guys I thought you could do better than this. are you giving me that all those authors have made connection where they don’t exist for their own dogmatic comfort?

first of all, who?
secondly, nobody ever claimed (as i said before) that all these figures were identical to the figure of jesus. they've said that there are similarities and connections that can be made.

now, i'm going to do what i do best: debunk the bible
do you support the killing of homosexuals?
blasphemers?
idol-makers?
those that take the name of the lord in vain?
sabbath-breakers?
those that don't honor their parents?
murderers?
adulterers?
thieves?
liars?
coveters?
disobedient children?

do you believe that a woman is property?
do you think that genocide is justifiable?

edit to add one more thing: do you think that pi = 3.0?

[edit on 6/13/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

now, i'm going to do what i do best: debunk the bible
do you support the killing of

There are alot of things in the bible you and I agree with and there are alot of things about spirituality you and I dont agree with.

That being said you left off innocent women and children from your list.

After Moses and his followers spent 40 years in the desert, when they went into the promised land they started ransacking the the towns to take back the promised land so they killed the women and children of those towns on gods orders.

madnessinmysoul
you say that debunking the bible is what you do best. If that last posting is indicative of your main point(s) I might consider another hobby.

I wasn’t planning on going Mr. Apologetics here on you guys but I cant resist responding to etshrtslr because the events they brought up is one of serious concern and far reaching and currently relevant importance.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
After Moses and his followers spent 40 years in the desert, when they went into the promised land they started ransacking the the towns to take back the promised land so they killed the women and children of those towns on gods orders.

Thankfully I’m in the right place, conspiracy theorists are the some of the few people that can understand what was going on there and why this happened the way it did....read on my conspiracy brethren

The Nephilim were the strange hybrids of Genesis 6, apparently the principal reason for the judgment of the Flood of Noah’s time. However, Genesis 6:4 also includes the haunting phrase, "...and also after that...." Apparently these strange events were not confined to the period before the Flood.

We find that there seems to be some recurrence of those bizarre things which resulted in unusual "giants" appearing in subsequent periods later in the Old Testament narrative, specifically the giant-races of Canaan.

There were a number of tribes such as the Rephaim,3 the Emim, 4 the Horim,5 and Zamsummim6 that were giants.7

The kingdom of Og, the King of Bashan, was the "land of the giants."8 Later, we also find Arba,9 Anak, and his seven sons (the "Anakim"10) also as giants, along with the famed Goliath11 and his four brothers. 12

When God had revealed to Abraham that the land of Canaan was to be given to him, Satan then had over 400 years to plant his "mine field" of Nephilim in his attempt to thwart the plan of God.13

When Moses sent his twelve spies to reconnoiter the Land of Canaan, they came back with the report of giants in the land. 14 (The very Hebrew term used was Nephilim.) Their fear of those terrifying creatures resulted in their being relegated to wandering in the wilderness for 38 years. When Joshua and the nation Israel later entered the land of Canaan, they were instructed to wipe out every man, woman and child of certain tribes.15 That strikes us as disturbingly severe. It would seem that in the Land of Canaan, there once again was a "gene pool problem."

These Rephaim, Nephilim, and others seem to have been established as an advance guard to obstruct Israel’s possession of the Promised Land. Was this also a stratagem of Satan?

Jesus warned us,

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:37

This is one of the reasons why some conjecture that the UFO phenomena may be a contemporary manifestation of a recurrence of these same hybrids.16

www.khouse.org...

reposted due to quote error.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by etshrtslr]

Originally posted by Amenti

I wasn’t planning on going Mr. Apologetics here on you guys but I cant resist responding to etshrtslr because the events they brought up is one of serious concern and far reaching and currently relevant importance.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
After Moses and his followers spent 40 years in the desert, when they went into the promised land they started ransacking the the towns to take back the promised land so they killed the women and children of those towns on gods orders.

Interestingly your explanation did not deny the fact the god ordered the Israelites to kill all the women and children in Canaan when moses entered the promised land.

Are you saying the Canaanites were nephilim and therefore Israelites were justified in their killing of them?


[edit on 13-6-2007 by etshrtslr]

I was sitting here daydreaming about my next podcast and what-do-ya-know, prayers are answered.

This is a good conversation so far my friends, keep up the good work.

Love and light,

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

edit to add one more thing: do you think that pi = 3.0?

[edit on 6/13/07 by madnessinmysoul]

go check the thread you started on this, i will show you a thing or two

Originally posted by Amenti
go check the thread you started on this, i will show you a thing or two

so far you've yet to even answer any of the questions i posted. do you believe that we should kill:
homosexuals?
blasphemers?
idol-makers?
those that take the name of the lord in vain?
sabbath-breakers?
those that don't honor their parents?
murderers?
adulterers?
thieves?
liars?
coveters?
and disobedient children?

and one more thing... you mentioned "the flood"
now, i shoudl assume you mean the great euphrates flood that covered a significant part of mesopotamia... but i think you meant the gilgamesh/genesis flood.
can you prove that said flood happened?

listen, if you're a christian there are two ways to see it.
either the bible is metaphorical or god is a prick. because if the bible is literal, the figure of god is most certainly a prick

Madness, be assured, I have no problem with answering your concerns and I will do so soon enough, but considering this thread is about something you have so prolifically posted about here on ATS (the jesus copycat theories), I feel that It should be addressed If we are to debate anything here.. I did a little search on some of the past haughty claims you have made on ATS concerning this topic, and there is more than enough material available to make you look rather silly, and I would like to see you make a revised list of the similarities you are so sure exist in the light of this nasty business of data.

Originally posted by Amenti
Madness, be assured, I have no problem with answering your concerns and I will do so soon enough, but considering this thread is about something you have so prolifically posted about here on ATS (the jesus copycat theories), I feel that It should be addressed If we are to debate anything here.. I did a little search on some of the past haughty claims you have made on ATS concerning this topic, and there is more than enough material available to make you look rather silly, and I would like to see you make a revised list of the similarities you are so sure exist in the light of this nasty business of data.

alright, i'm just going to give you a basic framework of my argument:
1: jesus probably didn't exist as a historical figure, the guy is probably an amalgamation of people who claimed to be the messiah
2: the story of jesus was INFLUENCED by cultic religions in the area, primarily those surrounding the CULTIC dionysus, the CULTIC horus, and the CULTIC mithras.
3: the articles you gave actually highlighted a few of the similarities shared between those figures and jesus. there is no point in making a list.
4: i never claimed jesus was an exact knock off... and if i did i was mistaken. i apologize for any ignorant claim i have made.

Best option for humanity would be to stop arguing about Jesus and Bible and to try to find material as close to source as possible, oldest texts and all suppressed gospels and use them with texts from other religions to make a new and clean religion.

Imagine all the peace we would gain and maybe even stop next holocaust which is possible today, all because of anti-Christian and anti-Muslim propaganda. Add some greedy people to all this mess, who profit from wars (bankers, corporations and politicians) and you got recipe for WW3.

We should unite and form new religion which would enable us to live in peace and cooperation. Also we would need to think how to merge religion and science. Check latest discoveries from quantum physics and space exploration and you will see, sooner or later science will discover spirituality.

Also religion with some science would be safe from brainwashing.

Originally posted by sb2012
Imagine all the peace we would gain and maybe even stop next holocaust which is possible today, all because of anti-Christian and anti-Muslim propaganda. Add some greedy people to all this mess, who profit from wars (bankers, corporations and politicians) and you got recipe for WW3.

are you saying atheism starts wars and genocides?

We should unite and form new religion which would enable us to live in peace and cooperation.

ahem, let me sing you a part of a song

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

Also we would need to think how to merge religion and science.

they're inherently incompatible. science relies on facts, evidence, and reason. religion relies on dogmas, superstition, and faith.

Check latest discoveries from quantum physics and space exploration and you will see, sooner or later science will discover spirituality.

i fail to see the connection between quatem physics, space, and that which has no science behind it

Also religion with some science would be safe from brainwashing.

again, the two are inherently incompatible

Yes, atheism doesn't mean end of violence. Many wars started for food and even for women. Well, today this is not such a problem but still it is a possibility.

One religion is needed today because people are not prepared to abandon religion. Reason for this is, not lack of understanding, but people in general want to experience spiritual and this is good.

Material is just one aspect of reality and this is what i meant by new discoveries in science. We are starting to see universe from different perspective and also to measure how our thinking actually manipulates this world and our bodies.

More we progress, more spiritual we see in science and also more united we are. Not to offend anyone, but believing there is nothing else besides flesh, bones and some electricity in your brain is very limited. It is like that because science is not yet advanced enough to show you "proofs", but it will be soon.

[edit on 14-6-2007 by sb2012]

Originally posted by amenti
ok guys calm down, just hear me out, Im not here to convert you but....
I am so sick of hearing and reading these supposed researchers talking about the similarities of Jesus and Horus or Quetzalcoatl, Kirishna, Virishna, Buddha, Zoraster, Mithras or any of the other 80 or so such deities.

And as soon as you supposed Christian 'researchers' stop saying that every non-Jewish/Christian religion is descended from the mystery cults of Babylon maybe I'll stop saying that Christianity BORROWED certain precepts from Zoroastranism, Judaism etc and that the aforementioned deities by and large promoted peace and 'clean living' and other good concepts.
Until then.