supposed "rare" united 93 footage.

Ok then since no science, no logic, no actual experience will change your mind, then what’s the point of even being involoved in disussion?

I don’t suppose you can tell me where the aircraft is in these pictures, can you?



Where’s the tail, it should be sticking out of the hole?
Where’s the impact marks from the wings?

Hows about this…

That is what the debris looked like, think you could separate that out from the other debris in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, or the hole in the OP’s video? Does any of this even look like it came from an aircraft? Heck it looks exactly like the pile of crap we see in the Pentagon photos.


How’s about this, does it look like it came from this:



Now considering that a 757 is only 2 feet wider then this MD-80, why should there be so much more damage?



How’s about this one, I was at this one in person, saw it with my own two eyes. My medical family members, were called into the hospitals, to receive incoming wounded. Unfortunately, there was only one surviver from the crash, and several firefighters suffering from smoke inhalation. Now what I want to know about this picture is:

1)Where are the wings?
2)Where is the damage to the bridge pilling (which are similar to the pilings of the Pentagon)?


One last question, do I need a frontal lobotomy to join the truth movement, or just have no morals and be a con artist out to make money off others tragedy?

[edit on 5/28/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by nightmare_david
You have any idea how WRONG you are?

A plane hitting nose first at a very high speed wouldn't compact it all within that hole. That's just ignorance on your part. You've watched too many movies. The width of th hole doesn't even match the plane. The hole is WAY TOO SMALL for a 757/767 to have created it.

A plane wouldn't be carrying enough fuel to burn as long or as hot as to completely disintegrate everything on impact. Do you realize how hot it would have to be for that to happen? The heat alone would have destroyed homes as if an a-bomb had gone off. they said no bodies were found. Everything jsut disintegrated....BS. Again, it take s large amoutn of heat to completely pulverize bone.

Or it takes a what was likely to be about a 400-500 mph impact into terrain, have you considered the fact that people can be ripped apart in a slower plane crash, like one during landing? If the FDRs from United 93 were found about 8 metres down underground, so if thats how far they went, and the would be at the back of the aircraft, what do you think happened to everything else? FDRs are designed to survive extremely high G-forces, a human cannot. If you went into the ground that fast, you would be pulverised on impact. So would the plane for that matter, the fuselage is made to keep the air pressure inside it, and to be lifted by the wings, it isn't made to stay together when it hits the ground at high speed.

So the fire itself needs to do very little, all it needs to do is lift some wreckage high enough to be spread by the wind, some will probably bounce off the ground on impact anyway. Yes, just because there may be a conspiracy in 9/11 doesn't mean United 93 wasn't controlled flight into terrain.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by apex]

I just wanted to share this plane crash photo. It looks like a plane crash photo.
Tu 154

Here's one that made a hole. It's a big hole. And if you look at the other photos in the article, there are pieces from the wings.
Nigerian 737

In my search for photos I came across an interesting experiment that seemed to show cell phones don't seem to work well after a couple thousand feet.

I don't know what happened that day but I'd feel a lot better if more information was released. I heard the other day there are still a million pages of documents concerning the Kennedy assassination still classified.

Originally posted by defcon5
Ok then since no science, no logic, no actual experience will change your mind, then what’s the point of even being involoved in disussion?

I don’t suppose you can tell me where the aircraft is in these pictures, can you?



Where’s the tail, it should be sticking out of the hole?
Where’s the impact marks from the wings?

This was the ValuJet flight that crashed in the water in the everglades. The majority of the debris was under the water buried in a crater in the mud.

BTW, it's getting sort of old for people to keep trotting out photos of the ValuJet crash as some sort of comparison to FL 93.

Interestingly, the FL 93 crash site looks remarkably similar to the ValuJet site, even though the ValuJet crash was into water, and the FL 93 crash was in a grass field. The difference being that there was more debris at the ValuJet site.

Originally posted by nick7261This was the ValuJet flight that crashed in the water in the everglades. The majority of the debris was under the water buried in a crater in the mud.
Interestingly, the FL 93 crash site looks remarkably similar to the ValuJet site, even though the ValuJet crash was into water, and the FL 93 crash was in a grass field. The difference being that there was more debris at the ValuJet site.

The small amount of water present at the ValuJet crash site, followed by the ground, wouldn't make too much difference I would think. Both were going pretty much straight down, and the Valujet plane did hit bedrock, and shattered on impact. As opposed to United 93, which hit slightly less solid ground.

Originally posted by nick7261
This was the ValuJet flight that crashed in the water in the everglades.

Yes it is, and I was waiting for one of you to say that.
Now look at the first photo of the folks standing there, how deep is that water?

Come on... According to your guys logic there should still be a tail sticking out of that water.

Originally posted by nick7261
buried in a crater in the mud.

About the same density as the soft landfill at the PA crash sight.

Originally posted by nick7261
BTW, it's getting sort of old for people to keep trotting out photos of the ValuJet crash as some sort of comparison to FL 93.

Not really, intelligent folks who don’t have an agenda realize that the way you learn something is to observe other instances which are similar in the past.

Originally posted by nick7261
Interestingly, the FL 93 crash site looks remarkably similar to the ValuJet site, even though the ValuJet crash was into water

That is because it crashed into soft landfill placed over an old strip-mining operation. The company which did this did not pack the dirt down hard as it costs more money to do that. It costs money to move more dirt in, and it cost money to pack it hard.

Originally posted by nick7261
The difference being that there was more debris at the ValuJet site.

There is debris from the PA crash too, it is just harder to get to.

There is debris. There were bodies. There were witnesses. The passensgers are dead. The crew is dead. The terrorists are dead. The only reason that 93 did not hit its target is because it took off 45 minutes late. You even have Rummy stating it was shot down.

Denial and delusion are not good bedfellows, and if you throw in showstring conspiracy you have a nightmare.

Okay you've showed us parts of the plane.
But we still havent answered as to why these apperent part are not evident at the crash site i mean if you have all that wreckage how come none of those big pieces would be at place of impact.

Originally posted by DazedDave
Well, with that logic...
If there were no planes, then clearly the video was edited, correct? In that case, why is it not possible that the video posted in this topic was edited too?

Dear DazedDave:

No need to edit the films of Shanksville ‘crash’ site. They didn’t show anything anyways. Unless you think someone might have edited emptiness into the images.

I find it also tiring that the Valuejet images are compared to United flight ’93’. Sure, if something crashes into a mucky swamp there won’t be much left to see at the surface. But Pennsylvania was no marshy Florida Everglades, so the association doesn’t apply.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

Oh, it most certainly does, same as the soft ground from an unpacked landfill. After all we can clearly see above that the water is not deep enough to hide the large parts you guys claim should exist. Besides, the water should have further cushioned the impact and even larger parts should exist at the swamp site. The only reason that it does not apply for you is, as you already told us, no matter of logic can be applied to this as you have a vested interest in it.

So what kind of money do you guys make on selling DVD’s, Books, and Web advertising now-a-days?

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods
I find it also tiring that the Valuejet images are compared to United flight ’93’. Sure, if something crashes into a mucky swamp there won’t be much left to see at the surface. But Pennsylvania was no marshy Florida Everglades, so the association doesn’t apply.

Ok, do you want visible pieces lying around, or do you want the right size pieces, however they are? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

OK then, American airlines 191, lost an engine on takeoff, but here is the wreckage of it:



And, I said that the Valujet plane hit bedrock in the everglades, and broke up, so just because its a bit swampy, does that mean it is really that different?

Let's not forget that American 191 was also a significantly larger plane. It was a DC-10, but yet there was a TINY amount of wreckage.

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods

Dear DazedDave:

No need to edit the films of Shanksville ‘crash’ site. They didn’t show anything anyways. Unless you think someone might have edited emptiness into the images.

Why not? Is it not impossible that someone decided to put together a fake video to fool some truthers? I mean, if fake video exists to discredit the truth movement, could it not exist to discredit the official story as well?

Just looking at all sides here. You did of course say that if one plane was fake, they must all be fake. Thus, if one video is fake, they must all be fake too!

Defcon5 are you from Michigan?

Some of the info you posted would lead me to believe this was the case, but your location says different.

I am referring to the Northwest Airlines crash you posted. I was there also and I saw it with my own eyes. Not much left of that plane and it only got about 50 to 100 feet off the ground.

If you were at the crash site you will remember exactly what main street that was that the flight 255 crash. Do you know what the name of that street is?

But you sure have brought up a lot of excellent points either way.


[edit on 28-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by Realtruth
Defcon5 are you from Michigan?

Some of the info you posted would lead me to believe this was the case, but your location says different.

I am referring to the Northwest Airlines crash you posted. I was there also and I saw it with my own eyes. Not much left of that plane and it only got about 50 to 100 feet off the ground.

If you were at the crash site you will remember exactly what main street that was that the flight 255 crash. Do you know what the name of that street is?

Yeah I lived there for a long time before being at my present local.
The aircraft hit the lights on the Avis building with its gear, hit Middlebelt Road, crossed Wick, slid under a train trestle, and I-94, which is where the photo is from. Took out a few cars along the way, and lost its tail, as most aircraft with tail mounted engines are prone to do. Another 100 feet to the east and it would have hit the AV-Gas Tank Farm. It also nearly hit the gas station at Wick and Middlebelt, I believe it was a Shell Station. What was left from the accident was set up on I-94, and later moved to the blue Nomad Hanger between the Wayne County Sheriff Office and the Ford Hanger, as they had issues with looting. The hospital that the firefighters were taken too was Heritage, but the survivor was taken to some children’s hospital whose name eludes me.
Very bad day…

My first thought on seeing the mushroom cloud was that we got attacked by the Soviet Union.

Oh, the City was Romulus, and the County was Wayne. Hope that is enough info. I also was there for the other NW collision as I had just flown in from my current location to visit friends up that way, I flew in on a NW DC-9 about 60 minutes after that happened.

[edit on 5/28/2007 by defcon5]

Well you weren't BS'n that is as descriptive as it gets. LOL!

You want to here something extremely strange. After NW canceled all flights I was on the next outbound flight for NW the next day. Remember how they closed that entire area down, even I-94 was closed. We had to take Van Born to get to the airport and when I saw the debris, luggage, and.........anyhow, it sure did leave a lasting impression.

I also saw the whole crash site from the air as I took off the next morning, it was truly a sad and strange feeling for everyone on that plane. Many people were white knuckled as we ascended that morning.

I remember that. That girl was my age if I remember correctly. It was a little girl that lived right? What ever ended up happening to her?

I saw a story on her a couple years ago. I think she ended up living with family somewhere, and was going to school. She seemed to be a pretty normal well adjusted little girl.

Have any of you seen a modern film? If Lucasfilm has access to what it does, do we not think that the US would have released doctored footage that was perfect if they wanted to cover up 9/11. I mean, it could have been made months in advance and then released.

There is no footage of Shanksville because it is in the middle of nowhere. No video feeds, hotel cameras, security cameras,etc..

The only footage I would like to see is that from the C-130 that was there.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
I saw a story on her a couple years ago. I think she ended up living with family somewhere, and was going to school. She seemed to be a pretty normal well adjusted little girl.

Doens't sound too normal to me, if shes still alittle girl