How far are 'aliens' ahead of us? Perhaps not much!

The following is a purely conjectural argument. I am not trying to “prove” anything, simply trying to stimulate thoughts on possibilities. I use the word “aliens” liberally here. I don’t mean to claim this means the ET guys are from outer space. It’s just used for convenience. “Aliens” to me means “the other guys, not us.” For examples I have pulled from the UFO literature knowing full well that some would say the stories are unproved or even false. I know not whether the stories are true, but they show an overall trend that follows the points.

Many times on these threads people will say something like, “The “aliens” may be millions of years ahead of us in their technology. Us trying to reverse engineer their stuff is like an ant trying to figure out semi-conductors.” I’m not trying to pick on the person who said exactly that, but just to express the sentiment. It’s similar to Arthur C. Clarke stating, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” In both cases the issue is that “we don’t understand” or even “we can’t understand.” This is often coupled with the idea that the “aliens” are not only technologically millions of years ahead of us, but that they are also physically far superior, capable of great feats of intellect impossible for the poor brain of Homo sapiens. They are also emotionally advanced to the point that our thoughts and feelings are primitive in comparison.

There is a story, perhaps apocryphal, about a bureaucrat late in the nineteenth century who quit he Patent Office because he claimed there was nothing left to invent. We laugh at the hubris displayed in this story, particularly in light of the advances made in the 20th century immediately thereafter. I mention this because I want to make clear that I share the laughter at this man. I by no means believe we have reached or are about to reach the pinnacle of anything. In other words: There is lots left to invent. There is lots left to discover about the nature of reality. There is a lots left to grow emotionally and intellectually. I have no idea where the pinnacle of such things lies and I have no idea how far along our species is on the line to get there. Further, I acknowledge that the “aliens” are further along this path in all areas than we are.

Yet even as we say this and ponder what it means for us we are faced with stories that are puzzling. For example, the aliens seemed amazed at Barney Hill’s false teeth. They rushed to Betty Hill and tried to pull hers out, too, amazed when they did not. In the stories in “Communion” Strieber tells many anecdotes of alien behavior that point to a child-like wonder of them concerning us. In the stories surrounding Roswell the alien ships seemed easily brought down by a simple radar beam not designed to do so. In stories by Greer we hear of us using particle beam weapons on them to knock out their saucers on purpose and repeatedly. On stories about Greys in general we hear they are willing to violate what we consider to be inviolable rights at will and repeatedly without regard to what we believe is sacred.

There’s not enough room on this forum to flesh out the details completely, but the overall point is that in total, the aliens are not always as advanced, as peaceful, or as developed as some of us would like to think. In many ways they seem child like, and often they are as nasty as anything the human race has managed to produce. I do not want to debate these points specifically, but to use the overall sentiment in what follows.

Point One (the easiest): If the aliens are a million years ahead of us, it does not follow that it will take us a million years to catch up. We have seen time and again that when we develop something and it becomes known to the world, the fact that our competitors know it can be done reduces the time span it takes for them to duplicate the feat. We saw that with the Russians and the atomic bomb, and we see it now in how rapidly the Chinese are advancing in military technology. Knowing it can be done provides focus you don’t have when you are trying to figure out how to do it and invent it in the first place.

Point Two: It is pure conjecture that the aliens are a million years or [pick your number here] of years ahead of us. What if they are ‘only’ a hundred years ahead of us? Some of you may be aware of the concept of “The Singularity” invented first by physicist and sci-fi author Vernor Vinge and popularized by Ray Kurzweil. The idea is that advances in many areas of science are happening in an exponential fashion so much so that advances are about to increase at such a rapid rate that we won’t be able to tell where we are at any given moment. Moore’s Law is frequently used as an example, a law that has applied and been constant now spanning three centuries. The rice grains and the chess board is another example. One grain on the first square, two grains on the second, four grains on the third. Nothing much happens over half the chess board. But on the second half of the chessboard, the whole issue goes ape #. (That’s a technical term.) Kurzweil insists that in the fields of computers, robotics, nanotechnology, and biology that the Law of Accelerating Returns will result in a Singularity in the very near future (2012 anyone?) So the issue is that we may not be so very far behind alien technology in the first place.

Point Three: For this you must assume that there is a Reality with a capital “R.” It may include Newtonian Mechanics at a certain level. It may include Quantum Mechanics at a certain level. It may include some other kinds of mechanics we haven’t discovered yet. It may include string theory, multi-dimensions, worm holes and other issues. It may even include some so-called “religious” truths such as higher dimensions, souls, and reincarnation. The issue is not what it includes, but how much is there. If there is a capital “R” reality, then once you know it, you can stare at it for a million years if you want to, but you are not going to get beyond it to something further because there isn’t anything further. If the aliens have gotten to 95% of Reality and we have gotten to 75% of reality, there is no million year gap.

There’s a 20% gap, and with the Singularity, it’s closing fast. Pick your own numbers, but the issue remains.

Conjecture, of course. So is most of the stuff here presented as fact.


[edit on 12-5-2007 by schuyler]

I agree with you. Consider this: Is there a point where technology no longer needs to be progressed, and have the aliens reached that point? What I mean by this is that they could be so far ahead as to have cured all diseases, ended all hardship, and live in total peace and comfort in satisfaction. Would a race of beings that reached this point still seek out technological growth? I am not so sure that they would. However, you could make the case that no one can know absolutely everything so therefore there will always be a need for technological expansion in order to accumulate more knowledge.

I believe that technology changes reflect core beliefs in society. Currently there are great hardships around the world, and we also have a thirst for knowledge about the universe. This is reflected in our great technological strides in medicine and exploration. There may come a time, and there has been in the past, where we no longer seek to expand our knowledge and we are satisfied with the conditions in which we live. In this situation closing the gap to this "singularity" you speak of will become near impossible.

Good post overall, I feel you have touched on a significant idea pertaining to alien theory. However, a lot of this comes down to core values and beliefs within society itself.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by Vipassana]

your post was too long and i didnt read it

Hi schuyler. Can you post some references? I want to read some more about Ray Kurzweil.

I am fascinated with the Mayan 2012 mystery too. I just started reading Maya Cosmogenesis 2012. I agree with your theory, but not with Vipassana. If they have travelled light years to get here, then they are explorers as well. As an explorer, you want to know why, which goes all the way down to quantom physics. We are at the farthest reach of the universe, as well as to the microscopic. There is always more to learn.

Saying that, what is to say that our planet, with all these species, is not anything close to what they could have imagined. Their evolutionary path probably is not anywhere close to ours. We have adapted to the 70% Nitrogen, 29% Oxygen, or somewhere close to that. "They" could have evolved in an Argon Helium atmosphere, and Silica instead of Carbon based. Who knows? I'm gonna think about this some more.

Nice post!

It may not take advanced technology to manipulate time or space.
Maybe just an understanding of stump jumping reality.
Maybe their science or understanding of the cosmos is more akin to voodoo or majic and has little to do with our understanding of physics, quantum or otherwise.

We pride ourselves on our technology but to a truly advanced species; we might just be children playing with blocks.

Like if the indians would have lived. All our troubles started when Christianity came about.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by Quasar]

[edit on 13-5-2007 by Quasar]

they will nuke us back to the stone age (again) before we
get too advanced for our own good.

Nice post schuyler. Was a bit long but luckily wasnt too lazy to actually read it, or would have missed out

We always take a human centric view when discussing alien technology because we lack anything else to compare it against. We expect certain discoveries to happen before others can become possible. For example we expect computers to be discovered and required for space travel. But in reality is it even required?

What if Einstein had discovered the theory of everything before the invention of the computer? Would we be able to space travel without computers?

Or if you were an alien species with telepathy, would you ever have a driver to develop radio technology, the telephone or internet style communications? It's always possible humanity has still overlooked some "obvious" technology that a "less advanced" civilization would expect us to have mastered.

So while its probable most space faring species will have advanced technology there is no guarantee which technologies will be advanced.

Point One (the easiest): If the aliens are a million years ahead of us, it does not follow that it will take us a million years to catch up. We have seen time and again that when we develop something and it becomes known to the world, the fact that our competitors know it can be done reduces the time span it takes for them to duplicate the feat. We saw that with the Russians and the atomic bomb, and we see it now in how rapidly the Chinese are advancing in military technology. Knowing it can be done provides focus you don’t have when you are trying to figure out how to do it and invent it in the first place.

You forget that alot of technology is leaked/sold/stolen and there where lots of scientists that worked in that field. What you maybe should use to compare is: Take the average person with about 120 IQ, and let him build an atom bomb from scratch. How long would it take before he has one made? Also it is not rocket science to reverse engineer electronics. If you are specialised in that work.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
your post was too long and i didnt read it

To develop an idea sometimes takes more than a single sentence.

Originally posted by Cygnific
You forget that alot of technology is leaked/sold/stolen and there where lots of scientists that worked in that field. What you maybe should use to compare is: Take the average person with about 120 IQ, and let him build an atom bomb from scratch. How long would it take before he has one made? Also it is not rocket science to reverse engineer electronics. If you are specialised in that work.

I'm not quite sure what your point is because you seem to contradict yourself. On the one hand you point to how long a person with an IQ of 120 will take to make an atomic bomb (i.e.: a long time) and on the other hand you say reverse engineering electronics is not rocket science (i.e.: a short time) The idea that parts of technology are leaked/sold/stolen is part of the package of knowing it can be done. I did not forget it; it's implicit. I can't explain every last detail and stay under the post limit, especially when people are saying it's too long anyway. If we HAVE reverse-engineered Roswell, that would fall under this category. In my example on the atomic bomb, the Russians essentially reverse-engineered it along with a lot of help from spies like the Rosenbergs.

since you stimulated my thoughts, i would like to share them.

It is quite possible that other Planets were not trapped by buracratic goverment nonsense. From what Ive read about aliens and witnesses, non of them are wearing clothing, so it is fair to suggest that these aliens have completely different values.

maybe species from other planets did not have to waste as much time as we have fighting over possitions of power and influence. Maybe they do feel as self conciouse as we do, but what i can say that seem obviouse to me, is our culture is trapped under economic rule that will not allow us to venture out the way other alein planets have. It is simple not cost effective.

Maybe they do not have government, but instead a common understanding. oops did i say communism.

Have you ever heard about Timewave Zero (see vid below) and how does it fit into the theory above?

www.disclose.tv...

Originally posted by Terrapop
Have you ever heard about Timewave Zero (see vid below) and how does it fit into the theory above?

www.disclose.tv...

I just wantched the video, and it sounds very interesting. We are already destined for a pre determined coarse. the end is inevitable, and all energy that created life must eventually return to its source. That does fit in with Hawkings bing bang discription.

at about 2:15 some thing gets said in the background at it is driving me mad that i cant make it out, it is probably nothing.

Math is the Universal language. One of the easiest ways to advance your world is through reverse engineering. I believe this has happened and continues to this day (probably started in 1947). While our scientists may still be far behind (compared to alien technology) there is enough of an understanding of physics, metals and the atom to reverse engineer almost anything. Where we may be behind is in the travel of the solar system and the Universe itself. I do not believe in the big bang theory. I believe the Universe is ever evolving and will continue long after this planet turns to dust. We know so little about the Universe, how could we know how old it is?

I also believe that we know very little about what our Govt actually knows. I personally witnessed two objects orbiting the moon in Oct 2004 through my telescope. It was either alien or US Govt, I will probably never know.

If the Universe was one trillion years old how many super advanced civilizations have come an gone. How many live underground on the planet they started on. How many have moved to other solar systems. How many still have dinosaurs and how many super earths are out there. (I would say billions based on the star count. ) How many star systems have multiple advanced civilizations. We really know nothing at all.

Originally posted by aceace
Math is the Universal language.

An absolutely perfect example of Capital "R" reality! Thanks!

[edit on 13-5-2007 by schuyler]

Loved the post schuyler
I personally believe that its impossible to reach the pinnacle of technological advances because:

1. Other Dimensions probably require different technology for their existence, or what ever they these other dimensions have in them.
2. We don't know whats on all the other planets in this universe, maybe some of these planets require a new branch of technology to inhabit.
3. What about other universes... or whats outside of ours, can we travel to them?
4. And what if this other intellegient speices are surface dwellers, they could possibly not have any knowledge in a subterranean habitat, or vice versa with a subterranean speices.

There is always more to learn i believe, you can always make things a little faster, a little more durable, and a little more convienent.

I am curious thou, how spirtually advanced they are. Can they peform mass miracles?

Great post. I thought that would be boring and full of crap but it was really good.
All of that makes alot of sense, I can't agree with the strict limits placed upon technology, or the percentages used but apart from that great post.

i think technology will evolve as long as we keep evolving, discovering, stealing what ever means of getting hold of new found knowledge, considering we use a shoddy 12% of our brain and we've came this far, i think using the full 100 could either be lethal due to the amount of things we are aware of to do harm, or amazing because were finally mature enough and advanced enough to not scrap over material things and could have knowledge to synthesize them from scratch

schuyler :

Point Two: It is pure conjecture that the aliens are a million years or [pick your number here] of years ahead of us. What if they are ‘only’ a hundred years ahead of us?

The reason we consider this far more likely is because we consider 'older Civilizations' to be most likely 'immortal' and also the likelihood of finding a Civilization within 100 years of our technological advancement to be extremely statistically 'unlikely'.

Therefore the 'likelihood' of meeting up with an 'older' 'immortal' Civilization is thus far more likely than the off chance of meeting a Civilization that is no more technologically advanced than ourselves.