Dreamland: Groom Lake, Papoose Lake and the Origion of the S-4 Myth!

Hi all,

I am going to Prove to Origion of the S-4 stories often debated here on ATS. I think I can explain All of the eye-witness acounts of activity over Papoose lake that has so many times been used as evidence for the Lazar Story. This will take a little while, but I promise it will all make sense by the end.

This story of S-4 begins Not at Papoose Lake, but a few miles Northeast at a Supersecret Research facility known as Deamland. Dreamland is the base at Groom Lake where so many of the world's most secret aircraft such as the U-2, A-12 Blackbird, Tacit Blue and F-117 first took to the skies to test there wings. For more them 50 Year Groom Lake has been home to the Projects America claims don't exist! Here ideas that seem to have been ripped from the pages of science fiction are developed and tested in the Real world, under a shroud of mystery and secrecy. Dreamland or Area 51 is concealed from the outside world by a large block of Restricted Airspace known as R-4808N. Here is a link to a flight chart showing R-4808:

R-4808N Dreamland

Look closely at the flight chart and study it's boundries. You will notice that the Entire top half of Papoose Lake is inside of R-4808N. This means that technically this part of the lake bed is under the control of the people who control Area 51 to the north. It also mean that Air craft from Groom Lake can fly to Papoose without leaving the Restricted Airspace of Dreamland.

Now this doesn't mean there has ever been Anything built at Papoose Lake. In fact, we have no reason to believe that there is anything there. Some quick quotes from the Papoose Lake Primer will Illistrate my point very clearly:

There is really only one location that fits Lazar's description. It's on the east side of the lake bed, just north of a natural "tongue" that sticks out into the lake. This is the only location the Papoose mountain range comes down to anywhere near the lake as a collection of low foothills. The Testors booklet conveniently labels the spot as "S-4". At other points along the range, the mountains are quite a distance from the lake, up an alluvial plain.

Problem is, there's nothing there! Absolutely nothing. A facility such as Lazar described would have to leave traces easily visible on a photo with the resolution of this one. Even assuming the facility is hidden in the hills, there is no sign of an access road (which Lazar described as good), no sign of a fenced area (and the accompanying marking of terrain it would leave), no sign of terrain scuffing from people walking around or even from hauling discs out of the hangars onto the lake. It's not as if these things won't show up on the photo, as they do in other areas near Groom. Guard vehicle turnaround spots on the dirt roads are clearly seen

The photo is also clear enough to easily make out all the dirt roads down to the 4wd level. By using the main access roads around Groom as a reference, it's obvious which are the good roads and which are not. The road running down to Papoose Lake on the west side of the Papoose Range, appears to be a very poor road, except for the most northerly portion. The road deteriorates as it nears Papoose Lake, and dumps into the north end of the lake bed itself. There are a few 4wd routes crossing the lake, but nothing approaches the likely location of S-4.

Notice these TextsVery Clearly Highlight a total Absence of activity on the ground around Pappose Lake. It makes no sense that they have a base so secret that Noone EVER enters or leaves the buildings. Even a Top secret base needs things such as food and workes.

So, what's going on? HERE is The ANSWER:

Papoose is Part of the Flight testing range for Dreamland. Black Project aircraft from Groom Lake fly manevers over Papoose Lake during their test missions before returning to the base. This makes sense for several reasons:

- By Using the airspace above Both Groom and Papoose Lakes, the military has a much larger area in which to fly Top secret aircraft without leaving the protection of the military area.

-Papoose Lake is uninhabited: This allows for an isolated location in case of a crash. Pilots can turn for and attempt to eject over the northern most part of Papoose, enshuring that a crashing aircraft will come down inside of R-4808, where the crash site can't be overflown by uncleared people.

-Papoose gives pilots a lineup area for testing at the RCS test range at Groom Lake: Planes can fly to Papoose and line up from several miles away for a pass against the Radar facility at Groom Lake, as was done with Have Blue in the late 1970's.

The Military has almost certainally been using the Airspace over Papoose to extend the secure testing area for planes from Dreamland for many years. It's remote location away from the boarder of the Nevada Test Site Makes the dry lake an ideal area to expand the flight testing from Groom Lake into with out compromizing security.

There is Nothing on the Ground at Papoose Lake and Never has been. However, the military's use of the Airspace over the lake bed to support flight testing of aircraft from Groom Lake has given rise to the Myth of a secret base at Papoose. People are seeing Top Secret planes from Groom Lake use the airspace over to uninhabited lakebed for test flying, nothing more.

I truly Believe that I have just Proven the Origion of the myth about a base at Papoose Lake. It all started with an honest misunderstanding of how big R-4808N really is and how the military conducts flight testing operations of secret aircraft.

Now that we have covered the origion myth of secret flight testing facilty at Papoose Lake, where did S-4 come from? As for that answer, I'll pull a quote from another thread:

quote: Original Anonymous Post By: anon_100820

This anonymous post is in response to ATS thread: S-4 Question: What does the "S" stand for?


Hello all,

I'm a "Camo Dude", and I'm here to tell you;

S-4, is simply Sector-4, on military base/area maps they are sectorized to prioritize various mission support functions. Major Accident evac, MOPP, ect. They generally are numbered in a counterclockwise fashion, so the 4th sector is typically in the northeast corner.

I pulled this quote from another thread of mine to Illistarte tne answer to the S-4 question. S-4 is Just one of many sectors of the Dreamland base at Groom Lake. S-4 is outlined on the map below:

MAP

As you can see the real S-4 is NOT a secret base, but mearly a part of Groom Lake. The Part of Papoose Lake that is inside of the boundries of Dream Land in Nowhere Near the Real S-4. I don't know what secor it's in, but not Number 4!

It was the combination of the funemental misunderstanding of the size of the secure flight tesing area connected to Groom Lake combined with a lack of knowedge of how the base's Sector systen really works that would lead to the myth of Sector 4 (shortened to S-4) being a supersecret facility at Papoose Lake. The fact that secret test flighs are in fact conducted in the airspace over Papoose has lead many serious researchers to the Errornious conclusion the there could be a facility of some kind at Papoose. The truth is There is Nothing of the sort!

So, yes there are Secret aircraft flying over Papoose Lake, however, they all come from Groom Lake! I think we are ready to close this debate and move on!

Repsectfully,

Tim

[edit on 3/31/2007 by Ghost01]

So you are saying that the Bob Lazar S4 story is bogus?
The map links you have posted do not work for me, so I really couldn't see what you're writng about. How do you know the maps are accurate and not touched up?



[edit on 3/31/2007 by TheAvenger]

Originally posted by TheAvenger
So you are saying that the Bob Lazar S4 story is bogus?

Yes I am! If it was true, Bob would either be missing or Dead!

The map links you have posted do not work for me, so I really couldn't see what you're writng about. How do you know the maps are accurate and not touched up?
[edit on 3/31/2007 by TheAvenger]

The actual map the link goes to is a sattelite photo of Groom Lake. I mrark on the image where Sector 4 (S-4) would be based on how the military sets up security Parameters and sectors. I can't figure out why the map doesn't work.

I made the "map" so the sector is approxamate! I based it on years of research into Area 51 and many other facilities as well as some colaberation evidence from another post.

Tim

I think the issue Tim is that the images don't appear to work at all, you only get a yahoo error page..

Can you re-host with someone else?

[edit on 31-3-2007 by Stoo]

What do you make of the photos here?


Lazar Website

[edit on 3/31/2007 by TheAvenger]

Originally posted by Stoo
Can you re-host with someone else?

[edit on 31-3-2007 by Stoo]

I'm working on it!

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01
As you can see the real S-4 is NOT a secret base, but mearly a part of Groom Lake. The Part of Papoose Lake that is inside of the boundries of Dream Land in Nowhere Near the Real S-4. I don't know what secor it's in, but not Number 4!

Tim I think your main problem is that your long post seems to hinge on this one quote from an anonymous source.

What you have done is build this single questionable statement up into something massive. The anonymous poster could be anyone! Why would a cammo dude go out of his way to inform the same people that he watches and scares off day after day, it makes no sense. Although I don't believe in S-4, I don't think this is the evidence to disprove it. What I think does disprove it is the fact that there is simply nothing there!

Originally posted by TheAvenger
What do you make of the photos here?

The photos on that website are edited from screenshots of Google Earth. They don't really show anything at Papoose Lake.

Here is the boundry of Dreamland:



As you can clearly see, only the top part of Papoose Lake is covered by the restricted area.

Tim

reply to post by Ghost01


I agree with your statement

respectfully,

area 51 fan

reply to post by Ghost01


I agree with your statement

respectfully,

area 51 fan

no go try again on the image. To tell you the truth without sounding like a skeptic, you have shown us nothing to prove nor disprove your claim except an anonymous post from an ATS user. SHow me a recent FAA approved(circa 2006) flight map that shows the boundaries of A-51. The only claims that Lazar made was that it was ahangar facility built into the side of a hill/mountain. Never said there was any overt land facilities near it. Not that I believe Lazar but you gotta have more than supposition based on internet posts.

reply to post by djvexd


I think I can help out here:
1. Mr Lazar went to work immediately for his contractor it takes months to get a Top Secret or higher classification and they would never let you work on any projects until cleared.
2. According to nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman Element 115 would have an extremely short half life and 500 lbs could not be accumulated.
3. His paycheck would of been from his contractor, not any defense department. He claimed to work for a contractor for the government. The government pays the contractors and the contractors pay their employees.

To any and all interested:

If any information were released relating to anything under suspicion or pertaining to a questionable topic, the first thing I would do (if I were to release said material) was at the very least check my spelling.

'Very Good' roadways exist under the Cheyenne Mountain complex. They are not visible from satellite photos. Nor are the access ports for food, support or maintenance personnel.

Bob Lazar's ONLY hope of not being 'dead' was to go public. If you doubt that assumption contact George Knapp at KLAS TV in Las Vegas.

And finally... What's with all the 'cutsie' names? No one have the gonads to sign on for the ride?

(name available to anyone who wants it)

The Bob Lazar story is too fantastic, I would love to give him the benefit of the doubt but the thing that really got me were two obvious things: 1) His W-2 says his employer was Naval Intelligence, Usually LES would read Department of the Navy right? Why advertise who you work for and the second 2)..What the heck is a Majestic clearance? Ive proudly served in the military and Ive never heard of a majestic clearance..Does it exist?

reply to post by kidflash2008

1. Mr Lazar went to work immediately for his contractor it takes months to get a Top Secret or higher classification and they would never let you work on any projects until cleared.

I saw a complete timeline from an interview w/Lazar and it did take about 2-3 months before he got his clearance. They came to his house several times over a period of weeks, plus interviews etc.

2. According to nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman Element 115 would have an extremely short half life and 500 lbs could not be accumulated.

Lazar claims that there is a theoretical "island of stability" at elements 114 to 115 in which there is the potential for completely stable isotopes. I've checked this out elsewhere and it seems to be true. Friedman is also quite an egotist and didn't like the fact that Lazar blew him and MUFON off when he tried to commandeer the story.

3. His paycheck would of been from his contractor, not any defense department. He claimed to work for a contractor for the government. The government pays the contractors and the contractors pay their employees.

Lazar maintains that he was not working for a contractor. He merely met his contact at the offices of EG&G since they had a secure conference room off site of area 51. He also was the first to state that the Office of Naval Intelligence that paid him was kind of an obsure office which he had never heard of. He did check it out though and it was legit and had offices in DCl

Tim,

do not belive everything you see on satelite photos. Those are so easily generated. If you can't see something there, it doesn't mean that it is not there...