A Woman Rides The Beast- Hillary Clinton 2008?

Mahree and thehumbleone, Just for simplicity sake I am going to answer your overlapping questions together.

Originally posted by Mahree
No swords are visible now. Maybe because you only hang out with Protestants you only know Protestants.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Where the heck is your proof for this? You're just talking out of your butt.
Yeah, that's why there are still 1 billion+ Catholics in the world

Actually I know a number of Catholics who are fairly well placed in their churches, and it was my understanding that they were worried about decreasing numbers in their churches. One of these folks was personally working to try and increase the number of new young members by setting up youth programs similar to those run by the Baptists and Fundamentalist Churches here in Florida. I believe that across the board there have been decreases, in the last few years, in all religion. However I believe that I am correct that the number of people that leave the Catholic church to enter some form of Protestant Church far exceeds the number going to other direction. As far as me only hanging out with Protestants, remember I went to Catholic School, and I still am close with a number of folks who practice Roman Catholicism.

Originally posted by Mahree
When Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic Church he took with him the Bible developed through Councils of the Catholic Church, both Roman and Orthodox.

Luther made his bible based on the Textus Receptus Greek New Testament:

Luther Bible
He used Erasmus's second edition (1519) of the Greek New Testament—Erasmus's Greek text would come to be known as the Textus Receptus.

Initially Luther had a low view of the books of Esther, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. He called the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw," finding little in it that pointed to Christ and His saving work. He also had harsh words for the book of Revelation, saying that he could "in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it."[3] He had reason to question the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they were not accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his editions of the Scriptures. His views on some of these books changed in later years.
Luther chose to place in the Apocrypha, an inter-testamental section of his bible, those portions of the Old Testament found in the Greek Septuagint but not in the Hebrew Masoretic text. These were included in his earliest translation, but were later set aside as "good to read" but not as the inspired Word of God. The setting aside (or simple exclusion) of these texts in/from Bibles was eventually adopted by nearly all Protestants (See Biblical canon).

So I guess that at one point the apocrypha was contained in a separate section of the Luther Bible. See I learned something new today...
Unfortunately it is not in the copy of it that I have. The man who’s work he used was someone of a similar belief, who though he remained Catholic, had an issue with the abuses in the Church…

Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus
Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus (sometimes known as Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam) (October 27, probably 1466 – July 12, 1536) was a Dutch humanist and theologian.
Erasmus was a classical scholar who wrote in a "pure" Latin style. Although he remained a Roman Catholic throughout his lifetime, he was critical of what he considered the excesses of the Roman Catholic Church.

BTW how did this get turned into a discussion of Luther, his bible, and the Protestant Reformation? I thought we were talking about the Roman Catholic Church and the Whore of Babylon. I fail to see how the Bible that Luther based his bible on changes what we are discussing or lends credence to the Roman Catholic Church in any way. I mean Luther was an Augustinian Monk in the beginning, he found errors in their teachings and he proved them wrong using their version of the Bible as his did not exist until after the Diet of Worms.

Originally posted by Mahree
But, my impression of what you posted was that the woman on the coins was the "whore of Babylon" which you indicated is the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes the icon used to represent the Vatican, the woman with the cup, I feel is the same imagery used by John of Patmos to represent the “Whore of Babylon”. I would consider that he was showing the corrupt church that would eventually reside on the “City of the Seven Hills”. So he was showing a System that would be merged with the system of the Roman Empire that existed in his day. Obviously as two personas are shown in this verse the translation cannot simply be the Roman Empire, it must be something that will ride on the Roman Empire. The opulence that is shown by the woman is another good sign to me that it is the worldly opulence, through corruption, of the Roman Church. The imagery is pretty hard to miss, if you study Rome and Prophecy.

Originally posted by Mahree
I accept your explanation that you were not wanting to quote anything from that perverse site and I thank you.

As to the site, I mainly did not quote it because I did not read it, I was looking for pictures and this was obviously an Anti-Catholic site. I don’t know if I agree or not with what it says, so I would rather go about proving my things in my way then in a way that may be more accusatory or based on speculation. Again I don’t have any issue with Catholics, and as I said I know a number of them, but I do believe that the Catholic Church is mentioned in this prophecy. This is the same way that I believe that the US is mentioned in Revelations 13:11. Remember that bit about working out your salvation with great fear and trembling, well with that in mind I will not allow myself to put on blinders and dismiss the obvious symbolism of Revelations and Daniel because of earthly pride, loyalty or some form of patriotism.

Which is kind of what I see here, there is very obvious symbology that matches up with the prophecy as I have shown. Yet because it insults your loyalty or patriotism toward a certain earthly organization, you are trying to show that it does not exist. So be honest with yourself, is what I am saying that blatantly wrong, or are you defending it because you're taking this personally? I think that thehumbleone is defiantly taking it personally…

Originally posted by Mahree
This is not a Catholic site. This is not a Catholic site:

Sorry about that, I was up for almost 28 hours yesterday and I was being lazy in my searching I guess. I thought they were all Catholic sites or quoting from Catholic sources. I figured that with a URL like justforcatholics.org it must be a catholic site.

Originally posted by Mahree
Protestants call these “works”.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
So which is it Defcon? Faith only, works only, faith and works, or neither.

As to the whole Works issue, as a Protestant we believe that:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Its through the Grace of God and the death of his son…
Now as a Christian we are to want to do works, to help our neighbors, and to do good as commanded by God, but as humans we will usually fail. Anything that is a Work falls under Law not Grace and by the law we are condemned, it’s only by Grace that we are saved. Grace may count for something glory wise in heaven, but it is not what grants you salvation. Let me ask you something, what works did the thief on the cross next to Christ perform to be granted into paradise at the moment of his death?

Did Christ tell him “Today you will be with me in paradise” or “Well... I'll see you in paradise after you have a layover in purgatory for about 10,000 years”?

You can do works for your entire life, and it will not justify a single sin that you have ever committed…

Originally posted by Mahree
I don't believe any "dogma" was changed in either of Vatican 1 or 2.

The Popes change dogma all the time, and they do it whenever there is a change in office. Forever you all believed in the Dogma of Papal Infallibility, and was that not just removed? When they don’t change Dogma straight out, then they make up a bunch of loopholes which has the exact same result. A prime example of this is excommunication for divorce, now since that was loosing them so many parishioners and they would not change it, they came up with the loophole of Absolving Marriage. That is one thing I really don’t like about the Roman Catholic Church, that you have to just about be a lawyer to understand their dogma as they have so many justifications, edits, changes, and so on, the books must fill whole libraries. Indulgences is a prime example, even though it was scripturally shown to be untrue, and even they finally threw it out, I guarantee that they still have hundreds of laws on the books trying to justify that it was ok to do…


[edit on 4/1/2007 by defcon5]

You are right. We have strayed way off track. I probably would not have jumped in here at all if you had not posted that first anti-Catholic site.

So be honest with yourself, is what I am saying that blatantly wrong, or are you defending it because you're taking this personally?

Yes, I have to admit that I am taking it personally. My Faith is strong and it hurts me to see it abused.

I know that you attended a Catholic High School, but I don't think that makes you an expert on Catholicism. We could continue debating this forever, probably. and not change a thing.

You can do works for your entire life, and it will not justify a single sin that you have ever committed.

I agree with that 100%

About the "good" thief. Jesus is God and I believe that He could do anything He wanted. The thief was repentant, Jesus saved him.

I do have many other issues with what you have posted, but I guess at this point I will thank you for the debate and agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Mahree
I know that you attended a Catholic High School, but I don't think that makes you an expert on Catholicism.

I never said I was an expert of Catholicism, I think I just mentioned above that you almost need a law degree to be an expert on Catholic Dogma. This was part of the reason that Luther was so good at it, he went to Law school before joining the cloth.

Originally posted by Mahree
We could continue debating this forever, probably. and not change a thing.

I’ll agree with that for sure, but it’s not unexpected as people have been arguing these points for hundreds of years now to no avail.

Originally posted by Mahree
I do have many other issues with what you have posted, but I guess at this point I will thank you for the debate and agree to disagree.

Yeah, it’s been an enlightening and enjoyable debate, but we do seem to be slipping off the point and into issues of Protestant vs Catholic dogma. So I agree that it is most likely pointless to continue arguing on some of these points as, like I said above, even more learned men then us have argued them to no avail for centuries.

Just for the heck of it, some time you should read Luther’s 95 thesis, he does bring up some very valid points about purgatory and indulgences, and since he was a Lawyer, a Roman Catholic Scholar, and a Augustinian Monk he understood the Roman Catholic system far better then I do. As you obviously have an interest in this sort of thing and enjoy debate, you might enjoy reading them: 95 Thesis

Originally posted by thehumbleone
So which is it Defcon? Faith only, works only, faith and works, or neither.

Originally posted by defcon5
As to the whole Works issue, as a Protestant we believe that:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith without works are dead

I already proved that Jesus and scripture both talk about faith and works. So my question to you is, as a protestant, do you ignore some parts of the bible and follow only what you want?

I'm not understanding your logic here.

Of course no one can ever be good enough, Catholics understand that, that's why Christ died. He is the only one that can justify us.

If you have faith, you are obviously gonna want to do good as Christ commanded, and if you don't want to do good, maybe you don't have faith in him.

Just to show you what will happen to people who think they know Christ

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Matthew 7:21-23

Let me ask you something, what works did the thief on the cross next to Christ perform to be granted into paradise at the moment of his death?

Can't answer that, I don't know the man. As Mahree stated, Christ can do anything since he is God.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by thehumbleone]

tower of babel was a ziggurat, not round, but ziggurat shaped. it was also called the Etemenanki, on following attempts at rebuilding it and in ancient Sumer, was called the E.Abzu. The site of its first construction in sumerian times was originally known as Eridu. Babel is Eridu. The babylonian system following the mesopotamian flood, was started in late Akkadian period by Nimrod, who is also Osiris (as the god of the dead) and Narmer (before he died), Enmerkar (akkadian), Gilgamesh (Babylonian) and I believe he had a chinese name as well, perhaps the son of Shun (Canon of Yu).

thing always seemed to get torn down repeatedly. eventually, they gave up entirely.

the poignant part of it is the "Babylonian System", which is a system of world empires, based on the Babylonian priest system and ritual idol worship stuff. I do believe Revelation lists eight empires in total, from the time of the first accounting (the original babylonian empire). The first four empires are named or alluded to in Daniel (old testament): Babylon, Medo-Persian, Grecian and Roman (Pagan). Then in Revelation, the beast empires are picked up again and added to. The Roman empire is split into 2 warring factions under the same leader (miry clay and iron mixed, the toes of the statue in Daniel), which is theorized to be the next incarnation of Pagan Rome under the Papal System, known as the Holy Roman Empire.

Every empire after that, is a continuation of the Holy Roman Empire. It appears to suffer a fatal wound but is actually still very much in control. It achieves this via various brotherhoods, fraternal orders, secret societies and syndicates (the mob, the mafia, etc). Or at least, that's the theory some hold. Not everyone agrees obviously. Another way it achieves this is by establishing various political and military bodies that do most of its dirty work so that it never gets the proverbial hands dirtied. Examples of this are the establishment of islam, which recognizes the Papal throne as the only legitimate seat of christianity. All other christian faiths are heretics. Another way is via the crowned heads of state, who fall under the influence of Rome.

But the idea the OTO or similar organizations might have some part to play in all of this, goes without saying, as they are part of priest and ritual system, that characterizes the first Babylonian Empire (at Babylon).




[edit on 2-4-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
The babylonian system following the mesopotamian flood, was started in late Akkadian period by Nimrod, who is also Osiris (as the god of the dead) and Narmer (before he died), Enmerkar (akkadian), Gilgamesh (Babylonian) and I believe he had a chinese name as well, perhaps the son of Shun (Canon of Yu).

AMAZING..............TRULY AMAZING.


I have actually come across someone who understands the origin of the false gods. Zeus is also Nimrod by the way, among others.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


AMAZING..............TRULY AMAZING.


I have actually come across someone who understands the origin of the false gods. Zeus is also Nimrod by the way, among others.

It's fairly easy to see why this "fatal wound" concept threw so many people off the trail, when the HRE (Holy Roman Empire) appeared to be dethroned by Napoleon and so forth. This factoid, caused a rift between historicists and preterists, which kick started the futurist system of interpretation because it was apparent many of the prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and still it appeared the head of the beast had been fatally wounded. Historicsts decided it was the end of the prophetical timetable for them as did preterists, but some split off into the new branch of futurism.

The solution to the conundrum is to realize all subsequent empires following the miry clay and iron toes, are just various reincarnations of the miry clay and iron toes, the HRE. It only appears to be out of the power seat. If you follow this particular theory, of course. It was, it is not, and yet it is.

Most people don't realize that rome and specifically the vatican, has most of the treasures, treasured artifacts, treasured texts, etc, of every age on the planet, of countless nations and every empire that preceeded it and every new nation it conquered in the name of the pope. It has been accumulating additional wealth for thousands of years. It's probably the singlemost politically and financially powerful organization on the planet, and that has not changed since its formation at the end of Pagan Rome.

Alot of the Catholic people are good folk and have no idea what's going on in the halls of power within the hierachy, a scenario we see played out between the American political scene and its citizenship, just on a smaller scale.

One guy wrote a book where he pieced together political and financial movements between the vatican and its various brotherhoods and fraternal orders, and the rest of the world. Hundreds of significant dates appeared, including the assassination of Kennedy, anti-semitism, the dual role of socialism and facism (divide and conquer). His research was so extensive, that frankly, he sounded like a raving lunatic, but he brought up some very interesting connections. One connection alot people don't understand was the one between the Vatican and the Nazi Party during and following WWII. No one quite understands it. The motivation doesn't seem clear. It's uncharacteristic. Or so it would seem. Really, it all boils down to how much of this kind of information is true and how much of it is manufactured by people who simply hate the catholic church, for whatever reason. There's a divding line there, that's hard to distinguish, and as a result, trying to present it as grievances against the Vatican, may create more confusion than anything else.

For example, the average catholics or just christians in general may end up having to bear the karmic burden of the Vatican out of control in various places throughout history, which is not only unrealistic, but the Vatican will remain standing when the dust clears, leaving the average catholic and christian people in general, irreparably harmed. The Vatican wouldn't and doesn't mind this scenario at all -- it's easy to redirect the anger at the "heretical sects" of christianity when it appears their own membership may be suffering, as the Vatican is strong enough and influential enough to resist all such attacks and has become particularly astute at manipulating public opinion.

When the tax exempt status is removed from churches, mom and pop churches will fold all over the world, but the Vatican will still be standing. When the call for centralized christianity, under one platform, meets the surge towards a One World Order, the Vatican will still be standing, as they are incredibly well versed in compromise and absorption of other cultures. Or so they assume, as they have the support either directly or indirectly of some of the most powerful secret societies, fraternal orders and even opposing religions on the planet.

It's absolutely, diabolically, brilliant.

This is why some people think the OTO is the culprit, and Hillary (Hilarion) Clinton is the Whore of Babylon (Babalon):


THE MANIFESTO OF THE ANTICHRIST

by Jack Parsons

I, BELARION, ANTICHRIST, in the year 1949 of the rule of the Black Brotherhood called Christianity, do make my Manifesto to all men. And I, THE ANTICHRIST, come among you, saying:

An end to the pretense, and lying hypocrisy of Christianity.

An end to the servile virtues, and superstitious restrictions. An end to the slave morality.

An end to prudery and shame, to guilt and sin, for these are of the only evil under the Sun, that is fear.

An end to all authority that is not based on courage and manhood, to the authority of lying priests, conniving judges, blackmailing police, and

An end to the servile flattery and cajolery of mobs, the coronations of mediocrities, the ascension of dolts.

An end to restriction and inhibition, for I, THE ANTICHRIST, am come among you preaching the Word of the BEAST 666, which is, "There is no Law beyond Do What Thou Wilt."

And I BELARION, ANTICHRIST, do lift up my voice and prophesy, and I say:

I shall bring all men to the Law of the BEAST 666, and in His Law I shall conquer the world.

And within seven years of this time, BABALON, THE SCARLET WOMAN HILARION will manifest among ye, and bring this my work to its fruition.

An end to conscription, compulsion, regimentation, and the tyranny of false laws.

And within nine years a nation shall accept the Law of the BEAST 666 in my name, and that nation will be the first nation of earth.

And all who accept me, the ANTICHRIST, and the Law of the BEAST 666, shall be accursed and their joy shall be a thousand fold greater than the false joys of the false saints.

In the name BELARION shall they work miracles, and confound our enemies, and none shall stand before us.

Therefore I, THE ANTICHRIST, call upon all the Chosen and elect and upon all men, come forth now in the name of

Liberty, that we may end for ever the tyranny of the Black Brotherhood.

Witness by my hand and seal on this day of 1949, that is the year of BABALON 4066.

---

The problem is, this document was written in 1949. Bill (Belarion?) Clinton was born in 1946 and Hillary (Hilarion?) was born in 1947. If anything, it almost sounds like someone is trying to fit the situation to the Manifesto of the Antichrist, to make the document appear as if it is a legitimate prophetical text. This serves two purposes simultaneously, and most specifically, it distracts from what is really going on, removes eyes from the prophetical biblical fulfillment, which is only borrowed from to make the Manifesto seem more legit. I'd be wary of assuming it is a prophetical text and consider it more like a game plan, that may or may not be capable of being fulfilled as presented.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by thehumbleone


Faith without works are dead

I already proved that Jesus and scripture both talk about faith and works. So my question to you is, as a protestant, do you ignore some parts of the bible and follow only what you want?

I'm not understanding your logic here.

It’s a moot point to sit here and argue grace and works with you, here is the reason that I do not follow your concept of what is required for salvation:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
Rome historically has always taught that we are saved by grace, and grace alone. They emphasize that very strongly. The 16th century Council of Trent makes this point very clear. Thus, there is nothing new on this in the Declaration on this point, even though some Lutherans have made it sound as if Rome's words about grace signal some marvelous breakthrough.
What you probably have not heard is that the JDDJ very carefully avoid precise definitions of the words grace, faith, sin, etc. That is no accident. Careful definition of those terms would have shown how far apart our two churches actually are on the doctrine of justification.
The problem with Rome's view of justification is that they view it as a process, whereby we cooperate with God's grace in order to merit eternal life for ourselves, and even for others (that is a paraphrase of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches). They view grace as a sort of "substance" that God infuses into us that permits us to do those works that are necessary in order that we might earn more grace. The Bible describes grace as the loving and favorable disposition of God; in other words, grace is all about what God is doing and giving.
We distinguish between the result of justification, which is the Christian life, and the work of God to save us. Rome mixes sanctification with justification. Why is this view troublesome? Because it teaches that something other than trust in Christ is necessary for or salvation. That "something other" is what we bring to the table. And the only thing we do bring to the table is our sin, not our good works. Our works are a response that God works in us, but not a contributing cause to our justification.

Originally posted by undo
The babylonian system following the mesopotamian flood, was started in late Akkadian period by Nimrod, who is also Osiris (as the god of the dead) and Narmer (before he died), Enmerkar (akkadian), Gilgamesh (Babylonian) and I believe he had a chinese name as well, perhaps the son of Shun (Canon of Yu).

Wasn’t Nimrod also Hercules?

Originally posted by undo
the poignant part of it is the "Babylonian System", which is a system of world empires, based on the Babylonian priest system and ritual idol worship stuff.

I don’t think it only relates to ritual idol worship only, but rather worldliness in general. Putting anything before God.

Originally posted by undo
I do believe Revelation lists eight empires in total

Wow. I've never heard that before, who are the other three. In Daniel you have five statue levels, and four bests, in Revelations you have the first beast that is built of Daniels original four, then the fifth and final beast. I would be interested to hear were you came across three others so I can research it.

Originally posted by undo
miry clay and iron mixed, the toes of the statue in Daniel

The final stage of the statue, IMHO, is the world at present, various superpowers ruling the world, some of whom are based on the old Roman system; hence the Iron. I am not sure if I believe that the ten toes actually represent anything or not.

Originally posted by undo
This factoid, caused a rift between historicists and preterists, which kick started the futurist system of interpretation because it was apparent many of the prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and still it appeared the head of the beast had been fatally wounded. Historicsts decided it was the end of the prophetical timetable for them as did preterists, but some split off into the new branch of futurism.

I am not sure where you received this information from, but it appears to be erroneous. Nothing caused a rift between the Preterists and the Historicists because they were never part of the same school of thought. Preterism is a school made by the Jesuit order of the Roman Catholic Church, and Historicism was a school of the Protestants. Luther was most likely the first true historicist, but I have also heard mention that he might learned it from Hess. Futurism also has existed since about the time of Preterism and similarly came from within the Jesuit order of the RCC.
Also, nothing ended historicisms timetable as its an ongoing process until the return of Christ. The wounding of the beast was never meant to be the end and one more empire was expected to rise after the wounding. Even John Wesley made a note in his commentary on Revelations that the first beast was wounded during his lifetime, and the second beast could not be far off.

Originally posted by undo
One guy wrote a book where he pieced together political and financial movements between the vatican and its various brotherhoods and fraternal orders, and the rest of the world. Hundreds of significant dates appeared, including the assassination of Kennedy, anti-semitism, the dual role of socialism and facism (divide and conquer). His research was so extensive, that frankly, he sounded like a raving lunatic, but he brought up some very interesting connections.

Interesting, do you know the name of this author?


[edit on 4/2/2007 by defcon5]

well there's a branch of preterism called partial preterism, that incorporates some historicism and in some cases, some futurism.

there's also historical method that believes we are living out the millenium as we speak, so as far as they're concerned, the beast system is a thing of the past, that will briefly resurface just prior to the final judgement.

the author of the anti-catholcism theories ? that's eric jon phelps. he's off the richter scale, fair warning. he makes good points and then he just keeps going and going and going and going.. you'll see what i mean
www.vaticanassassins.org...

I think it could very well be Hillary atop that beast.

But, I think, the beast is more likely the United Nations / NWO one world government.

Excerpt page on the subject of the Assassination of JFK and its connections to the Vatican, written by Eric Jon Phelps:

- Purpose

The purpose of the expose' of the Twentieth Century is to prove the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, ordered by the Jesuit General and executed by Pope Paul VI, was carried out by "the American Pope", Francis Cardinal Spellman. Spellman, being the Archbishop of New York, was "the American Military Vicar" and therefore used his most obedient soldiers - certain Knights of Malta, Shriner Freemasons, Knights of Columbus and Mafia Dons - in carrying out his orders from Rome.

The single reason for the President's assassination was his interference with the purpose of the Jesuits' Fourteenth Amendment American Empire created in 1868. That purpose was to restore and maintain the worldwide Temporal (political) Power of that Jesuit Creation of 1870 - the "infallible" Pope. In resisting the Pope's Temporal Power, he threatened the monopoly of the Jesuits' Federal Reserve Bank by enacting Executive Order 11110 (4 June 1963) thereby injecting into the economy nearly five billion dollars (4.7) in interest-free "United States Notes", only to be recalled the day after his burial.

The President also attempted to break the foremost international intelligence arm of the Vatican's Jesuits - the evil Central Intelligence Agency - "into a thousand pieces." In 1963 the CIA was manned by many of Hitler's old warriors - the Jesuit-controlled Nazi SS - turned "cold warriors". According to the great Frenchman, Edmond Paris, in his The Secret History of the Jesuits, it was the Jesuit Bernhardt Staempfle who wrote Hitler's Mein Kampf. This fact is further confirmed by one of the founders of the Nazi Party, Roman Catholic Otto Strasser, in his revealing book, Hitler and I. It was Roman Catholic Hitler who said of the Roman Catholic Himmler having modeled the SS after the Jesuit Order,

"I can see Himmler as our Ignatius of Loyola."

And lastly, one of the main posts of the feared SD, the Central Security Service of the SS (after which the American CIA would be modeled with the help of the repatriated Nazi General, Reinhard Gehlen), was manned by a priest - a former teacher of the evil Council of Trent at the Court of Bavaria, one of the Jesuit General's favorites, a superior officer of the SS and the uncle of Heinrich Himmler - the Jesuit Himmler, who controlled Hitler's every move through Martin Bormann!

Secreted out of Europe through the Vatican's Ratlines, these murderers escaped their rightful punishment as war criminals who, during the Jesuit Crusade in Europe and Russia, killed millions of Russian Orthodox People and Jewish People pursuant to the Jesuits' evil Council of Trent, which, after condemning freedom of conscience and freedom of the press, concluded with these words:

"Accursed be all heretics. ACCURSED!! ACCURSED!!"

Lastly, President Kennedy began to end the Vatican's hoax known as "the Cold War", the American CIA and Russian KGB having secretly worked together since World War II. He also began to end that Jesuit Inquisition in Vietnam, as its future highpoint would be "Operation Phoenix", the CIA mass-murder of 60,000 Vietnamese "in cold blood" according to its Director, William E. Colby. The President interfering with Rome's Holy Office of the Inquisition could not be tolerated! Millions of "heretic" Buddhists were to be exterminated, the international drug trade would explode, American patriotism and liberty would further be destroyed and Vietnam would be reunited under another communist military dictator loyal to the Pope - like Stalin, like Chairman Mao, like Castro, like George H. W. Bush and son -, Ho Chi Minh.

Waged under the guise of "fighting godless communism", Cardinal Spellman championed America's most disastrous conflict known as "Spelly's War" overseen by Spelly's General, the Roman Catholic and CFR member, William C. Westmoreland. (Remember, according to Col. L. Fletcher Prouty in his JFK, the forced movement of over 600,000 Roman Catholics on U.S. Navy transport vessels from North Vietnam into South Vietnam was "one of the root causes of the Vietnam War." The arch-Catholic Secretary of the Navy responsible for implementing that Jesuit-agitation was the Supreme Knight of the Knights of Columbus, Francis P. Matthews. Knight Matthew's Master was America's "Military Vicar", Francis Cardinal Spellman. Later, Spellman made several visits to the war-front calling the American troops "the soldiers of Christ", fighting the Pope's Crusade against "godless Jew Communism"!) The outcome was 58,000 dead, 80,000 post-war suicides and a 220 billion dollar debt to the Jesuits' Federal Reserve Bank.

All these acts of President Kennedy were proper assertions of national sovereignty and therefore infringed on the Pope's Temporal Power. As the "infallible" Vicar of Christ and thus, "the Universal Monarch of the World", the Pope, through the religious, political and financial power of the Jesuit Order, fully intended, then and now, to ultimately rule all nations through his loyal kings and dictators from Solomon's rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. For when the Pope is crowned during his coronation these words among others (having never been taught to us in the Public Schools) are spoken:

"Take thou the tiara adorned with the triple crown,
and know that thou art the father of princes and kings,
and art the governor of the world."

Thomas Aquinas, Rome's "Angelic Doctor" wrote in his Summa Theologica in 1272:

"The Pope, by Divine Right,
hath spiritual and Temporal Power,
as supreme king of the World: ..."

Lucius Ferraris wrote in his Bibliothica Prompta (1763), which has been adopted as a standard of Roman Catholic law, as follows:


On account of the excellence of his supreme dignity, he is called Bishop of Bishops, Ordinary of Ordinaries, universal Bishop of the Church, Bishop or Diocesan of the world, divine Monarch, supreme Emperor and King of Kings.

Roman Catholic Priest and editor, David S. Phelan paraphrased those words when he wrote in the Western Watchman, June 27, 1912:


"...Why, if the government of the United States were at war with the Church, we would say tomorrow, To Hell with the government of the United States; and if the church and all the governments of the world were at war, we would say: - To Hell with all the governments of the world ...Why is it the Pope has such tremendous power? Why the Pope is the ruler of the World. All the emperors, all the kings, all the princes, all the presidents of the world are as these alter boys of mine: ..."

Therefore, for challenging the Pope's Temporal Power, in attempting to thwart Rome's grand design against the peoples of the world, John F. Kennedy, America's first Roman Catholic President, was brutally murdered in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963, by the soldiers of Francis Cardinal Spellman within the FBI, the CIA, the Secret Service, Military Intelligence and the Mafia.

On September 11, 2001 this same Intelligence Network, overseen by New York Archbishop Edward Cardinal Egan being under the supervision of Jesuit General Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, attacked and destroyed the Twin Towers of New York's World Trade Center and partially destroyed the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. These acts of high treason against the American People have now justified our present Crusade against Islam, surnamed "the war against terrorism", and heartily endorsed by the Pope's Masonic Jewish Zionists to the detriment of the beloved, racially Jewish People in Israel. This "war on terrorism" is to the exclusion of notorious Jesuit-trained terrorists and mass murderers such as Fidel Castro of communist Cuba and Gerry Adams of Ireland's Irish Republican Army. Why?

www.vaticanassassins.org...

See what i mean? you can't tell how much of it is verifiable and how much of it is conjecture, without digging through tons of newspaper articles, religious treatises, historical texts (which may or may not themselves, tampered with) and so on. If you hear him speaking, it sounds almost identical to what yuo see in this article. i heard him interviewed once, for three hours straight and it was just non-stop, one thing after the other, till i completely lost track of where one concept began and the other ended. he's got so many strings he's trying to unravel at once, the effect is mind boggling.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by defcon5
It’s a moot point to sit here and argue grace and works with you, here is the reason that I do not follow your concept of what is required for salvation:

Pfft, typical protestant with your cop out answer, "oh, Jesus died for me so I guess i can sin all i want."

Lol you guys are an effing joke.

You claim the bible is the word of God yet you don't follow it, I will never understand you protestants. :shk:

[edit on 3-4-2007 by thehumbleone]

If you look closely at the Hilarion prophecy in the Manifesto of the Antichrist, it says Hilarion will manifest amoung the people in seven years from the date of the Manifesto, which is dated 1949. Hillary Clinton was born in 1947. That would've made her 9 years old (49+7=56. 56-47=9) when she was supposed to have manifested as Babalon the Whore. As far as I know, the age of religious accountability varies from 8 to newborn to 18, depending on the religion. Not sure how that could be depicting Hillary as the Whore at the age of 9.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by defcon5
Wasn’t Nimrod also Hercules?

Tammuz is Hercules. Tammuz is Nimrods son supposedly born of a ray of the sun after Nimrod died and became Baal the sun god.

Tammuz is the false savior and in Egypt he is known as Horus, Nimrod is Osiris, Semiramis is Isis. One of the sun gods was Ra which eventually blended into Osiris.

Zeus has realions with a mortal and has a son Hercules who is the savior of mankind.

All the stories come from the deceiver to keep people from seeing the Messiah (Jesus)

[edit on 3-4-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Other items of interest:

The "Whore" in this reference is about a religion, not a single political or religious figure but an entire religion.

A religion that has committed adultery against Jehovah.

To commit adultery against Jehovah, requires any number of wrong practices from someone who is supposedly a Jehovah worshipper, including idol worship. You have to have a relationship with God in the first place, in order to commit adultery against Him.

It has the pretence of christianity, but actually kills christians instead.

The cup in its hand is a ritual goblet, filled with the blood of dead christians, dead prophets and so on, killed by this supposed "christian" religion in the name of christianity.

It sits on seven hills that represent the seven heads in one metaphor, which has been interpreted, even by early catholic scholars, to be the seven hills of Rome. And seven kings or kingdoms (empires) in another metaphor (the seven kingdoms metaphor is a continuation of Daniel's statue empires).

Whether its Pagan Rome or Catholic Rome is really where the most arguments arise. As some ignore the connotations pointing to it being a form of christianity that isn't actually practicing christianity but idol worship,
for example. It looks like a lamb but it isn't a lamb. Etc.

However, it's a very long lived religion, with its roots in the Empire that directly followed the Grecian empire, as outlined by Daniel's statue. This empire is the legs of iron of the statue, which is Pagan Rome. The final part are the feet and toes of miry clay and iron mixed. The iron mix indicates it's still Rome, but something has changed. That change is the clay, which is the combining of christianity and paganism into one religion and one government (church and state).

The ten toes represent ten crowned heads of state, as is indicated in the same passages.

The 7 headed beasts, however, are broken down into groups.

The first one is the Great Dragon, who has
7 heads
10 horns
7 crowns

Because the crowns are on his heads, he rules both the heads and the horns (this will be important later)

The next one is the beast out of the sea, who has
7 heads
10 horns
10 crowns

He is under the dominion of the Great Dragon, as his crowns are only on his horns, which are ruled over by the seven crowns of the Great Red Dragon.

The next one is the twin of the beast out of the sea in its power structure, only he is depicted as a lamb with only two horns and no crowns. The lamb reference is the reference to it being presented as a christian religion. Yet he speaks as a dragon. The poignant thing to remember here is that it has the SAME authority as the beast out of the sea, but does this with only two rulers. The combined effect is that it is actually in control of the 10 crowned heads of state and it does this through its 2 rulers and without any obvious "crowns" to show it has political dominion along with its religious dominion.

The final beast, is the Whore on the Scarlet Dragon, who has
7 heads
10 horns
no crowns on either heads or horns.

This is the same beast as the Lamb with two horns and no crowns. Its lack of crowns shows it to be the religious aspect of the power structure, just as the Lamb in the other instance, depicts it as religion related to christianity.

Early church fathers recognized 666 to be the numerological equivalent of the ancient Greek word for "the Latin speaking man" is LATEINOS
L = 30 lambda
A = 1 alpha
T = 300 tau
E = 5 epsilon
I = 10 iota
N = 50 nu
O = 70 omicron
S = 200 sigma
------------
666

ROMITI
means the Roman Man
R = 200 resh
O = 6 waw (vav)
M = 40 mem
I = 10 yod
T = 400 taw
I = 10 yod
----------
666

It is the same in Greek AND in Hebrew.

666 is "Roman." How that applies to Hillary Clinton, I have no idea.

Let's say we separate the seven empires and the final one, the eighth one, which is of the seven.

First Empire: Babylon
Second Empire: Medo-Persian
Third Empire: Grecian
Fourth Empire: Roman
Fifth Empire: Holy Roman

This is where Daniel's accounting stops, however, the
following Empires (6, 7,and 8) are merely extensions
of the final one in Daniel's statue (The Holy Roman).
Following this logic, we go to the next world empire,
which is?

Sixth Empire:

Seventh Empire:

and finally, the big bad and last one,
composed of all the others, the

Eighth Empire:

Any ideas? don't just insert the USA in the 8th empire slot. We need to know the progression from Holy Roman to the 8th, as well. As Daniel states,
"History looks like a statue", each part of which represented a different world empire.

So who was the 6th, 7th and who will be the 8th or is the eighth?


[edit on 3-4-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
If you look closely at the Hilarion prophecy in the Manifesto of the Antichrist

I have never come across this Manifesto before, where does it come from and why should it hold any authority?
To me, there is not any single person Antichrist, and to say there is goes against every single scripture in which the word Antichrist is mentioned (1john 2:18, 1john 2:22, 1john 4:3, 2john 1:7). When the word ἀντίχριστος appears in the bible it is always in reference to it being more then a single person. The main verse that is believed by futurists to prove that the Temple Mount is to be restored and a covenant broken by the Antichrist is actually not talking about the Antichrist, but rather is about Christ fulfilling the covenant between God and man…

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ himself was cut off in the midst of his ministry after 3.5 years of walking among men, and he was put to death. This death was the ultimate sacrifice that was required for the forgiveness of sins, and causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease as he fulfilled Gods covenant to man that God would send a Messiah. We see this mentioned in the New Testiment, specifically in the book of Luke, where the curtain to the Holy of Holies is rent in half:

Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

This veil was the separating curtain which the High Priest would enter through every year to sprinkle blood from that sacrifice onto the Glory Seat of the Ark of the Covenant. The rending of this curtain was a sign from God that no further animal sacrifice would be accepted as God had now made the ultimate perfect sacrifice.

It can also be seen to mean the Messiah in the proceeding verse of Daniel:

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Originally posted by undo
First Empire: Babylon
Second Empire: Medo-Persian
Third Empire: Grecian
Fourth Empire: Roman
Fifth Empire: Holy Roman

This is where Daniel's accounting stops, however, the
following Empires (6, 7,and 8) are merely extensions
of the final one in Daniel's statue (The Holy Roman).
Following this logic, we go to the next world empire,
which is?

Sixth Empire:

Seventh Empire:

and finally, the big bad and last one,
composed of all the others, the

Eighth Empire:

Any ideas? don't just insert the USA in the 8th empire slot.

I still don’t understand how you are getting to eight. IMHO the prophecies stand as:

The Statue:
1)Babylon
2)Medo-Persian
3)Grecian
4)Roman
5)The World Now.

The Beasts:
1)Babylon
2)Medo-Persian
3)Grecian
4)Roman
5)The “Little Horn” who is not a beast, but a post on the 4th beast: the Pontifex Maximus.

The Goats:
1)Medo-Persia
2)Greece
3)Alexander the Great

in Revelations:
1)Beast from the Ocean, the four beast in Daniel merged into the Roman Empire.
2)The beast from the Land, a final 5th beast that exists in the end of times, which is based on the Roman system.

The Beast and the Whore:
1)The beast of the seven heads is Rome, or the Roman Empire.
2)The Whore is the Roman Religion that lives based on the power provided her by Rome.

My reason for stating that the US is the final beast is based on timing and the description of this beast:
1)Timing:
The second beast of Revelations was to come up near the end of the 42 months, about the time of the wounding of the first beast. Since the first beast had its authority removed in 1796, and during the life of John Wesley, he wrote in his commentary on Revelations that the “first beast was wounded, where is the second beast it can only be a little way off”. In 1776 the US, which was just a small starting out nation, and who no one expected to become the most powerful country in the world, had just ratified the “Declaration of Independence”.

2)Location:
The first beast came from the “Sea”, a location that was filled with a sea of many nations and peoples. The second comes from the “Land”, meaning the opposite of the “Sea”, being a sparsely populated area, or an area that up until then was not known.

3)Division of Power:
The horns represent a division of power within the nation that would rise. That can mean the two party system that the US has become, it could mean the north and the south and be a reference to the coming Civil War. But more importantly:

4)Crowns:
It has no crowns, no royalty, no kings. I believe that the US is the first nation founded to fit this part of the description.

5)Appears to be a lamb, but speaks as a dragon:
I believe this to be mean that it is set up as a Christian country, yet it enforces its will on others. This seems to go along with our “Gunboat Diplomacy”.

6)Causes others to Worship the beast before it:
Again this is in reference to the US forcing its corporate will on other countries. You don’t have to spend much time reading on this site to see that people in other countries feel that we force our will upon them and when they refuse we go to war with them. This is also a reference to our system of Capitalism, which at its very root is about worldliness, and God considers to be a form of Idolatry. Worship of the “all mighty dollar”.

7)Makes fire come down in the sight of men:
Besides performing other wonders in front of man, the US was the first nation to call fire from the heavens at the end of World War 2.

8)Deceives the World:
We use our standard of living, and the many technological feats we have accomplished, to sway the world to the opinion that our way of life is better then theirs.

9)The Mark:
Bruce Metzger’s definition of the Mark is:

Those who conform to the demands of the state are given means to identify themselves, so they can claim the benefits due to them”

The Greek word used is χάραγμα, meaning:

stamp (as a badge of servitude)

This does not have to mean an implanted chip; it can just as easily be a set of papers. All that the mark represents is a sign of loyalty to the current system that you can show to gain the benefits of that system. The bible does mention that it in some way relates to the forehead or the hand, and without it you will be unable to participate in any system of commerce.

Looking at the world now, we do have a system set up that exactly fits this description. For the first time the US has passed a law that will require all citizens to carry an identification which proves that they are loyal citizens to the US and not terrorists. Without this identification you will be unable to prove citizenship, and you will be a non-person to the Federal Government, thereby unable to claim the benefits due a citizen. If you have studied Rome, you will notice that this system follows very closely in line with the benefits of being a Roman Citizen. To make matters worse, the US has pushed all its allied nations to adopt similar legislation. These cards will also contain either your Retina scan or your finger prints.

So that is my take on it…
No eight empires, no implanted chips, no rebuilt temple, no antichrist…
While folks are reading books like “Left Behind” and looking for this rebuilt Temple and Antichrist, they have missed the signs that have occurred in the last 7 years.

Defcon5 and Undo, extremely interesting and enlightening as far as the history aspects go. I already knew much of what Defcon5 posted, but not everything. Undo, when you mentioned the Vatican being connected to the Naiz Party. If you do a google for images with Pope and Hitler, you will see photos of them shaking hands. I can not say this as a fact, but as a conspircy theory that I have heard else where that the vatican helped both the Naiz's as well as the US and others who fought against the Naiz's.
Gaining political power and investing on both sides of the fence all the while trying to remain in a netrual light with the people.

My husband have talked about the Vatican and the underground catacombs that the church allows no one to enter. It is suspected that the chruch is hiding many important documents there that would literally shine the light on exactly what the church has done since it was created to now. They could also completely ruin the chruch if they ever came to light. If those documents ever came to light, I honestly believe that the Catholic Church would wish the only problems they had would be a handful of preist pediofies in the news.

Undo, I know you have a much better understanding of Revelations than I do. I'm not sure of the sixth, seventh, or eight empire. I wonder if one of them could be Germany under Hitler at the height of WWII. He did conquer much of what could have been seen as the Old Roman Empire, but not all of it though. He would have succeeded if the US didn't step in with the atom bomb. As my understanding goes, each empire would always technically be weaker than the previous empire. Also, if he did have support of the Vatican, then couldn't that also be considered at least a link to the Holy Roman Empire? Or at the most the Empire trying to re-emerge through Germany?

Another empire that could be considered, could be the European Union. I think that would be clay iron parts before they would get to the toes. They are trying to take a bunch of individual countries and trying to mesh them all into one group. It does and doesn't seem to be working. They are meshing together, but not quite as well as they hoped they could.

The last empire, I believe hasen't come about as of yet. When I dig into the new world order, secert society, government behind the government theories, there is one theory that might make sense as far as the toes goes.

For arguement's sake, I'm just going to name the illuminiti eventhough there might be another secert society or group trying to run things now. It would just make things a little clearer being able to name one group behind the govrenment pulling the strings.

The illuminiti's goal for probablly hundred's but more likely thousand's of years is a one world government. From what I could piece together so far, is that with this one world government they want to divide the world into ten different parts. One being the European Union. Another being Mexico, America, and Canada, which we are headed that way with NAFTA. They will do what it takes to get these ten groups whether through negoiation, secert negoiations, terrorist threats, and etc.

Just had a thought, that those ten groups could be the seventh empire. They would have been created by the same political power, and the same power would be ruling all of them eventhough they would still have their own identities. You would have ten different groups of countries trying to somehow mesh together, which may or may not work so well depending on which countries they are trying to mesh.

Once they achieve that, they could either do away with the United Nations, or change it to a world government with one person from each of the ten groups representing the different parts of the world with one main person (anti-Christ) in charge. Each representative would form each of the clay toes.

I may have seen too many christian revelation movies protray that. I guess what got me digging a little further is the fact that Europe did create the European Union. America is going through negoiations to create this union with Mexico and Canada. Nafta is just the second stage for that. It seems that 99.9% of those I talk with about Nafta hates it. I'm very hard pressed to find anyone who actually agrees with it.

Noting that this process is a very long and slow one, and they will wait decades and centuries if necessary to fullifll it. Could it be possible that we just may be seeing the beginning stages of the eight empire?

defcon5, there is only one glitch saying the mark is the new US ID. Revelations 13:13-18. Before the mark appears, the image needs to be created and worshipped. What is the image? In verse 15, anyone who did not worship that image is going to be killed. That would include any US citizen that doesn't worship. Also, what would your perception of worship be in this verse?

In verse 16, it says the mark causes all to recieve the mark in the right hand or forhead. All is just not pertaining to US citizens, but all citizens around the globe. Without this mark, no one will be able to sell or buy anything.

When the new forms of ID comes out in 2008, not everyone is going to take it, especially illegal immigrants. They will still be able to walk into any store and be able to buy what they need. No one ever said that you can't buy or sell anything without this ID. You just won't be able to legally drive, get on an airplane, or go into governmental buildings.

Actually what Undo said about the name of the beast makes sense. The new ID, just could be another step towards the mark. Right now we won't be killed if we don't get a new drivers license/ID card.

Where is the US war against the saints? There are factions within the US that have practically declared war on us, but as of right now the federal government hasen't declaired war on us. What I mean by war on the saints is what China is doing Christians. People have died for holding a small Christian meeting in their own home. It is dangerous to take a Bible in the country. I remember it was last year when an orgazination was asking for donations to smuggle Bibles into China that was being aired on Sky Angel. In the US, we can still worship in our Churches as we want to when we want to.

All I see right now is the US going to war with other countries for possibly oil. I have read conspirices that the US goes to war for the UN when a country does not want to join it. That would mean the UN power is actually coming from the US though. Then could the US be the beast that would actually lends power to the other beast?

Unless, from speculation point of view, that the US does become the beast later on. Right now, it isn't warring with the saints. The beast out of the sea has been given 42 months, and the US has been around for 200 years now. Unless the beast rises up out of the US.

Whether you dismiss "left behind" theories or not. There at least two places I know where some force behind the scenes are trying to mesh smaller coutries into one. The two I know of right now are the European Union, and the three stage NAFTA deal trying to get Mexico, US, and Canada meshed into one. There is a theory for ten such unions.

The UN headquarters is located in the US. At this point the UN could very well change just internally, or given a new name. Now that there are only ten regions, why would they need delegates from each country? Why not just one delegate from each of the ten regions? Thus the beast is formed.

I do believe the UN has its' own image, eventhough I'm not quite sure what it is though. From that point, they could litterally take control of the ten regions saying everyone has to have this mark to show your allegiance to the UN. If you don't accept it, you are now considered a terrorist to the "New World Government", and either jailed or killed as they see fit. It would be much easier to create a single currency that everyone has to use, or even better yet go cashless. If they go cashless, guess what. No one, absoutly no one would be albe to buy or sell anything without their card, chip, or whatever they determine you have to use. To be able to get it, you have to give your allegance to the UN, or what ever it would be called then.

Also, if I remember correctly, the Patiroit Act actually crimilizes people patriots. In other theories, I have read that the powers that be do not want people to be patroitic towards their own countries. They are trying to get rid of old boundries and create new boundries. Patroits are a threat to the global system they want to create.

I believe that the last empire will not appear until the powers that be are actually ready to declare a new world order.