Church restates its stand on Freemasonry

Excellent Posts Flyers. Very classy the way you stuck to the topic.

You have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



Good to see the same old faces jumping on for the mason pit dog attack....... You guys are ruining this forum, soon as any on says something against you BANG!!!! You all start your feeding frenzy......And no I am not a mason basher, just sick of the thug mentality of those in this forum.

[edit on 17/3/07 by tkmelb]

I thought I was being fairly polite, to be honest...

Oh wait. I get it. You still think Masons are a massive singular interconnected organism, as opposed to individuals.

OK dude. Whatever.

Originally posted by Roark
I thought I was being fairly polite, to be honest...

Oh wait. I get it. You still think Masons are a massive singular interconnected organism, as opposed to individuals.

OK dude. Whatever.

No just the ones on here usually attack like the plague. So this thread you have taken the minor role, big deal, your comrades have spilled enough of their venom.

You give Masons a bad name

So Masons shouldn't be allowed to stick up for Masonry?

Or... is it only some are allowed for certain threads?

Who is to decide what Mason is allowed to say what on what thread?



As Roark said, as individuals we are allowed to do as we see fit on this forum .. us defending Masonry or discussing a conspiracy related to Masonry is within our individual rights.



Unlike popular belief from people like you, there is no contact between Masons when discussing a topic, unless it is in response, be it agreeing or not on the actual thread in question.

The way I see it, you would rather be allowed to bash at will and let anti-Masons run rampant without opposition, even though the fairy tales they dream up have the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old.

I would also like to give FlyersFan------

You have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Someone mentioned that FF was not an authority on the Catholic Church. I have read this thread through and she does know what she is talking about.

Anyone can call themselves "Catholic". You can even attend a Catholic church, receive the Eucharist and "get all dressed up" for Easter. You can be a Mason or pro-abortion. Unless you are a well known figure most would not even know that you aren't a "practicing" Catholic.

However, there is One who knows. God does know if you are a Catholic or not, and I guess he will address the fact at the pearly gates.

What I don't understand is why anyone wants to be called Catholic if they don't believe what the Catholic church teaches. The Catholic Church has a real nice book out now that pretty much lets you know what you need to believe if you are a Catholic. It is called Catechism of the Catholic Church

I think it possible to find a church who will let you believe what ever you want. Why are you not satisfied with that? Why do you feel that you have to make the Catholic Church over into your own image?

Those who don't want to attend church services because of the "hypocrites" there, please be advised that there is always room for one more.

FF answered the questions about being both Catholic and Mason. I have tried to address some of the other posts.

It is the gang attacks that I find offensive.

Mason Light will back me up here I am not anti Mason. I have voted for him in the way above award for his rational approach. I recently found out at my Uncles funeral that he was a mason, he was a top guy so no I don't think masons on the whole are evil, however I don't like the group attacks on members here, by people just flying the flag.

The way the Catholic church is attacked in this forum is disgusting and if it was masonry being attacked in such a manner you would be screaming Blue Murder. Just remember both organisations have a lot of skeletons in their closets.

Originally posted by Mahree
I would also like to give FlyersFan------

You have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Someone mentioned that FF was not an authority on the Catholic Church. I have read this thread through and she does know what she is talking about.

Anyone can call themselves "Catholic". You can even attend a Catholic church, receive the Eucharist and "get all dressed up" for Easter. You can be a Mason or pro-abortion. Unless you are a well known figure most would not even know that you aren't a "practicing" Catholic.

However, there is One who knows. God does know if you are a Catholic or not, and I guess he will address the fact at the pearly gates.

What I don't understand is why anyone wants to be called Catholic if they don't believe what the Catholic church teaches. The Catholic Church has a real nice book out now that pretty much lets you know what you need to believe if you are a Catholic. It is called Catechism of the Catholic Church

I think it possible to find a church who will let you believe what ever you want. Why are you not satisfied with that? Why do you feel that you have to make the Catholic Church over into your own image?

Those who don't want to attend church services because of the "hypocrites" there, please be advised that there is always room for one more.

FF answered the questions about being both Catholic and Mason. I have tried to address some of the other posts.

One can be Catholic and not agree with the Church the same as one can be an American/Canadian/Brittish and not agree with thier Government.

Originally posted by tkmelb
It is the gang attacks that I find offensive.

Mason Light will back me up here I am not anti Mason. I have voted for him in the way above award for his rational approach. I recently found out at my Uncles funeral that he was a mason, he was a top guy so no I don't think masons on the whole are evil, however I don't like the group attacks on members here, by people just flying the flag.

The way the Catholic church is attacked in this forum is disgusting and if it was masonry being attacked in such a manner you would be screaming Blue Murder. Just remember both organisations have a lot of skeletons in their closets.

I agree but it is the Church of Rome that attacks us and even has orders that exist only to destroy us (Militia Immaculatta). We are not the aggressors, our attacks are defensive not offensive.

I do not see Masons starting threads to attack the Catholic Church, but I do see Catholics starting threads to attack Masonry.

Originally posted by RWPBR
I agree but it is the Church of Rome that attacks us and even has orders that exist only to destroy us (Militia Immaculatta).

The Militia Immaculata do not exist because they want to destroy Masonry. Members pray for ALL enemies of the church, not just masonry. And the main thing behind the MI is a consecration of ones life to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Originally posted by tkmelb

Originally posted by Roark
I thought I was being fairly polite, to be honest...

Oh wait. I get it. You still think Masons are a massive singular interconnected organism, as opposed to individuals.

OK dude. Whatever.

No just the ones on here usually attack like the plague. So this thread you have taken the minor role, big deal, your comrades have spilled enough of their venom.

You give Masons a bad name

Your brush strokes are a bit broad, mate.

I'm STILL yet to understand what it is that I did wrong exactly... ever. Find an example of me behaving badly and I'll apologise for it. Minor role? I courteously asked a couple of questions, gave my thanks for responses, and expressed an opinion about the Hoy Fathers' continuing rulings about conflicting memberships. So what? Grow a thicker skin, for Pete's sake.

One of my "comrades" has a distinct disliking for the Catholic church and the atrocities it has committed over the years. He also dislikes the way (he perceives) that it controls people. Whilst I wouldn't speak with the same degree of vim and vigour as he, I share his opinion in SOME of the issues.

Maybe I should start making sweeping statements about Americans, or the British, based on the actions of a few. Wouldn't quite be fair, though, would it...

Okay, okay...
So the Catholic church doesn't like Masons.
Fine.
Big freakin' deal.
We're cool with that.

But the Catholic churce doesn't like gays, Jews, Buddhists, Protestants, Lutherans, vegetarians, ice cream, puppies or sunshine either.
And y'know what?
I don't freakin' care about that either.

The Catholic church has voiced negative opinions on lots of things over the years, and the Masons have voiced the ideal of charity, tolerance and brotherly love (not to mention the millions given to charity every day and the Shriner's hospitals where children are treated free of charge.)

And don't forget, that if it weren't for a few men who were Masons, planning strategy in a Masonic lodge, you just might never have even had the freedom to hate us, or even choose your own religion in the first place.

And please, to all the rest of you, please don't try that "well, when you see at the pearly gates" dark-ages fear tactic bullsh@#t on us, we're not children who can be scared into complacency.

Originally posted by Roark

Maybe I should start making sweeping statements about Americans, or the British, based on the actions of a few. Wouldn't quite be fair, though, would it...

Being an Australian, I say go for it, as that is a battle that i could care less about. I'm more concerned with the attacks on ATS members.

I'm Australian too. Irrelevant.

I'm just mildly concerned about being falsely accused of impropriety, as you may understand.

Originally posted by wu kung


And please, to all the rest of you, please don't try that "well, when you see at the pearly gates" dark-ages fear tactic bullsh@#t on us, we're not children who can be scared into complacency.

I think that this comment was probably meant for me. Believe me I was not intending or trying to scare you at all. My comment was meant to say that it isn't for me to judge whether you can be a Catholic and a Mason at the same time. I hope that I have explained my comment and not made you even more angry.

Originally posted by tkmelb
It is the gang attacks that I find offensive.

Mason Light will back me up here I am not anti Mason. I have voted for him in the way above award for his rational approach. I recently found out at my Uncles funeral that he was a mason, he was a top guy so no I don't think masons on the whole are evil, however I don't like the group attacks on members here, by people just flying the flag.

The way the Catholic church is attacked in this forum is disgusting and if it was masonry being attacked in such a manner you would be screaming Blue Murder. Just remember both organisations have a lot of skeletons in their closets.

If this is directed at me, being one of the first Masons to respond and with vigor as well..

I would appreciate it directed at the right person

Had you known the conversation that took place else where before the thread was made by the lovely FF, it may make more sense.

But as your not me, and I am not you, how can one say we know how each other feel?

Though I will say, Masons have taken a "lead" on the board lately.. not because there is more of us or anything, though I do have a big mouth, but hey that’s on any topic.. I would say its because the anti-Masons have finally broken, there is no compelling argument that exist that can stand up to truth and reason.

Rational conversing can only go so far with venomous hatred.

But maybe you where not talk about me, to someone else. If you where, please feel free to drop names. I rather like confrontation.

Originally posted by RWPBR

Originally posted by chief_counsellor

Originally posted by RWPBR
The Church needs to stop changing its mind every couple of decades to increase membership.

Give me an example of when the church has changed it's mind on something. It's stand on birth control, homosexuality, euthanisia, pre-marital sex, abortion, gay marriage..have always remained the same.

The church does not change it's mind every couple decades, but remains firm in its teachings.

This is a common misconception with non-Catholics. Chief Counselor is right - the instances cited are not a change in faith and morals, but in discipline.

To give a crude example -- doctrine in one's life might be to diet because they must lose weight. The discipline would be a observing a low-fat diet, then changing to a low-carb diet.

Another example would be prayer -- the doctrine would be that we all pray. Discipline would mean whether or not we might pray kneeling, or standing with our arms upheld.

South Park had an episode on priestly celibacy. It was funny, but lacked understanding in the difference in discipline versus doctrine. They said clerical celibacy was "Holy Roman LAW", which it is not. It also equated celibacy to homosexual pediophilia, which is absurd -- there are legions and legions of laymen who are homosexual pediophiles, yet are married men. To imply that celibacy causes pediophilia is just as absurd as to say that marriage did to married offenders.

Vatican II, Novus Ordo, The 1983 Code of Canon Law and the quick coverup and retraction by Ratzinger...

I think that this comment was probably meant for me. Believe me I was not intending or trying to scare you at all. My comment was meant to say that it isn't for me to judge whether you can be a Catholic and a Mason at the same time. I hope that I have explained my comment and not made you even more angry.

Angry?
Nah, not at all.
I love a good debate.
No harm done, and all is well.

I've heard that line used concerning so many things on so many occasions and it always just seems like a "I'm rubber you're glue" kind of thing to me.
I love that in this country, we all have the freedom to love the Great Architect in our own way (or Jehova, Brahma, Gautama Buddha or however else you want to personify the all-pervading consciousness). I'm just tired of certain groups saying essentially "my god has a bigger d#*k than your god, so my god is better and you better do what he tells me to tell you what to do".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you're saying that, but you catch my drift.

Remember, there are people all over the world that have never even heardof Jesus, that doesn't mean that they're going to hell because they don't worship him.

Besides, I have to be honest, I don't really think that Jesus would want to be worshiped.

But anyway, I know that a few of my brothers have met...hold on to your hats now...in church.
Yes, I know, it's shocking, but there are Masons who are priests, rabbis, preachers and all of that stuff.

So, as long as I'm not raping, murdering or shagging little kids, who is the church to say what I can or can't do?

Originally posted by wu kung

Remember, there are people all over the world that have never even heardof Jesus, that doesn't mean that they're going to hell because they don't worship him.

Thank you for your reply....However, "nothing is impossible with God", so I cannot judge what God will or will not do in any particular occasion. My belief is that we will know when we stand before Him in judgment.

I am a Catholic and I do try to live by the teachings of the Catholic Church. Try is the operative word here. I fall short all of the time and am thankful that Jesus died on the cross so that I may experience the mercy of God with the forgiveness of my sins.

As to your above note, people who have not heard of Jesus, I believe the Catechism of the Catholic Church does address that point.

Paragraph 847:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation.

and further.....

Paragraph 1257:

God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

I apologize for getting off topic about Masons and the Catholic teachings, but I do believe that FF has addressed that question. I have tried to address the some of the other questions raised.

and to be honest, I am not sure what to make of anything anymore...

but, a little while ago I was looking for some information and stumbled upon something. And from there I decided to check how many freemason lodges were in Adelaide. Now, funny ha ha I have just searched for the info again and its not coming up. But, what stood out to me was the sheer numbers of lodges throughout the city and suburbs. I think you will find that there are more lodges than churches.

What a quiet little movement tucked away in suburbia. And the funny thing is now, I really notice when I see another one.

But, who cares? hmm perhaps the Vatican ? Maybe the only grounds for concern rest in the fact that the Catholic Church is losing flavour and the Lodges are popping up all over the place?

The other thing is there isnt one lodge that I have gone past that isn't worn down and scabby looking. They are generally all run down basic halls you wouldnt notice.

Originally posted by wu kung

Masons have voiced the ideal of charity, tolerance and brotherly love (not to mention the millions given to charity every day and the Shriner's hospitals where children are treated free of charge.)

I am fully aware of the good works of Masons and thank all of these good people with all of my heart.

And don't forget, that if it weren't for a few men who were Masons, planning strategy in a Masonic lodge, you just might never have even had the freedom to hate us, or even choose your own religion in the first place.

I really don't know about this, but if so, thank you masons.