More IDF Brutality!

Here's a news item from Ha'aretz about an incident at a checkpoint near Nablus.

A young Palestinian man protested to soldiers about their treatment of some women at the checkpoint. In an ugly, confused incident, he was shot... and then badly beaten.

According to the witnesses, one soldier shouted in Hebrew, "Stop, arms in the air." However, Yassin - who doesn't speak Hebrew - continued to walk forward and then the soldiers shot at him. Then Yassin fell to the ground. According to the eyewitnesses, the soldiers held him, hurling him face down on a cement block and handcuffed him.

All three witnesses say the soldiers beat Yassin for five minutes in the back and head with their fists and their rifle butts and kicked him, also in the head.

After about ten minutes, a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance, summoned by another passenger, arrived on the scene, but the soldiers refused to allow the medical team access to Yassin. An Israeli ambulance arrived shortly thereafter and transferred Yassin to a hospital in Israel.

This is the kind of mentality that Israelis display toward Palestinians. Would anyone care to defend the soldiers' behaviour? Perhaps you think this is all lies - but then why would Ha'aretz be reporting it?

If you had to work at a job where at any random day someone that comes near you could be strapped with a bomb and brainwashed by religious fanatics- you'd also be a little trigger happy.

I do not belive that any Palestinian doesn't know what "Stop" means from the soldiers- even if its in another language. He should have known better than to approach the soldiers- nearly everyone knows how alert things are over there right now. The Israeli soldiers are keeping away people from checkpoints for a reason. If some Palestinian decides to try his luck and confront them- it's his fault. It's not like the outcome was unforseen. Simply stay out of the way, and no one will touch you.

Dont even try maloy! Your words fall upon deaf ears!

Living thousands of miles away from the reality that the IDF faces day in and day out in ISrael the people here try to drown them in platitudes!

who knows if that was a red cross ambulance or a Hamas troop transport, they are all the same there!

Originally posted by maloy
If you had to work at a job where at any random day someone that comes near you could be strapped with a bomb and brainwashed by religious fanatics- you'd also be a little trigger happy.

There's a difference between being trigger-happy and punching and kicking someone who's already been shot and is in handcuffs.

If you read the article, he had complied with the request to pull up his shirt. He had already demonstrated that he had no explosives strapped to him. The soldiers already knew that he was no threat.

I do not belive that any Palestinian doesn't know what "Stop" means from the soldiers- even if its in another language.

Can you tell me what the Hebrew word for "stop" is without looking it up? You'd definitely know what it is they were shouting about?

He should have known better than to approach the soldiers- nearly everyone knows how alert things are over there right now.

Firstly, he was trying to get through a checkpoint. Secondly, this is no excuse for shooting an unarmed man, and then beating and kicking him while handcuffed. There is no excuse for this behaviour. It's hardly professional.

And one has to wonder why they refused the Palestinian ambulance permission to take him away. Of course, IDF is known to routinely target ambulances in Gaza and, more recently, in Lebanon. Such a blatant breach of all known rules of war is hardly noticed or commented upon, however. It's disgusting.

The Israeli soldiers are keeping away people from checkpoints for a reason. If some Palestinian decides to try his luck and confront them- it's his fault. It's not like the outcome was unforseen. Simply stay out of the way, and no one will touch you.

I think this reveals utter ignorance of the way Palestinians are forced to live. They have to move through checkpoints several times each day. The IDF soldiers were disrespectful to the women in the party and then shot and beat up the one man who objected. And you seek to condone this behaviour.

Yes Maloy listen to IAF's words. We don't know how hard it is to be in the IDF day in and day out the brave soldiers lives are in jeopardy.

But Ask him WHY they are so afraid.

B`tselem: IDF cover-up of an extrajudicial killing

On Wednesday, 8 November, two Palestinian resistance members were killed by IDF soldiers in the village of Yamun, near Jenin. While the IDF reported that a joint Shin-Bet and IDF operation killed five terrorists, an independent investigation found that the two, Salim Abu al-Heijah and Mahmoud Abu Hassan, died under quite different circumstances. Both were injured and took refuge in the home of the Kabaleh family. The family attempted to hide the two, but were forced to leave the house when soldiers arrived. The family members saw the soldiers enter the house and then kill the two men, who were lying unarmed on the floor. As B`tselem points out, the fact that the soldiers entered the house, looked around, and then only after two minutes, shot the two men at close range, indicates that the soldiers did not perceive them to be a threat.

Source

They fear for their lives because of what they have done to these people thats why! I'd be afraid of retribution too if I was a sadistic IDF soldier. Someone will be always out to get you for what you did. The Israeli Air Force not so much since those cowards can just shoot people from 10,000 feet up, so the IDF take the brunt of it.

Yeah this online community seems pretty much conditioned against the what was that catchword? Ahhh yeah- zionists.

No matter whose fault this particular incident was (and it cannot be determined from conflicting reports), blaming Israel for everything that is wrong between them and Palestinians isn't going to solve any conflicts.

Being so caught up in this Anti-Israel/Boycott Israel/Free Palestine movement, no one takes time anymore to analyze the news from both sides. The conditions that exist in Palestine, exist because there are factions among the Palestinians interested in their existance. Someone somewhere is making big money from the Palestinians' suffering, and it certainly isn't Israel which is forced to spend huge funds on its defense forces.

It is certainly not the Palestinian civilians who are to blame. But there are major factions that have made war and civil strife their career, and these organizations are responsible for robbing the people and brainwashing countless teens to become Shahids and Martyrs- to give their lives for a cause and the conflict they don't even understand. Blaming Israel for everything is the obvious and easy thing to do. A much harder thing is looking at the whole affair from a neutral perspective.

Originally posted by maloy
Yeah this online community seems pretty much conditioned against the what was that catchword? Ahhh yeah- zionists.

Hardly. For me, Israel's a fact that everyone in the region's got to get used to. But they're locked into a really nasty effort to ethnically cleanse their country and are running it as an apartheid regime. They're racist and have adopted, ironically enough, the tactics of the Nazis in Occupied Europe - assassinations, checkpoints and collective punishment.

And there are a disturbing number of people on this board prepared to excuse any excesses from poor little Israel (which the US funds in terms of billions of dollars every year).

The conditions that exist in Palestine, exist because there are factions among the Palestinians interested in their existance. Someone somewhere is making big money from the Palestinians' suffering,

Can you back up this assertion with any substantiated reporting?

and it certainly isn't Israel which is forced to spend huge funds on its defense forces.

Overwhelmingly subsidised, as every Arab in the region knows all too well, by the US.

...brainwashing countless teens to become Shahids and Martyrs- to give their lives for a cause and the conflict they don't even understand.

Try growing up in a place where your home can be bulldozed flat at any time, when a sniper's bullet can kill you as you sit at your desk in school, where helicopters can launch rocket attacks on crowded streets... you might not understand the other side's point of view too well, but you'll be motivated to fight, I pretty much guarantee that.

As for the matter of a "neutral perspective", I'm not sure if one exists. We're human. We sympathise with one side or another for complex psychological reasons. I've seen too much state terror perpetrated by Israel to have much sympathy for them any more. I think they can justify any act to themselves, and when people get into that kind of mindset, it's bad news for everyone else. Just look at the mess the US has gotten itself into since 9/11. Americans gave themselves carte blanche to go and kick over some puny countries... and look how it's turned out.

Originally posted by maloy
brainwashed by religious fanatics

you are brainwashed into believing that jews are good!!!

they are the ones who beat,tortured, and crucified jesus.........



they are the ones who demanded that everyone has to PAY for everything,
that is/was free (food-water.etc....)

they are the reason we have OUTRAGEOUS house payments!
the reason YOU pay 30% on your credit card

the reason that people cannot afford homes,
because of business' scarfing up all of the lands

afghanistan used to be FREE and CHEAP
find some dirt, build a house, raise some goats, and vegetables,....and live.......... FOR FREE!!!!!

but, sadly, the jews couldnt make money from them like that

CANNOT HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE????

they also turned YOU into a SLAVE,
working from 16 till near death, to make them rich.......

i repeat...........YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!!!!

Originally posted by rich23
Hardly. For me, Israel's a fact that everyone in the region's got to get used to. But they're locked into a really nasty effort to ethnically cleanse their country and are running it as an apartheid regime. They're racist and have adopted, ironically enough, the tactics of the Nazis in Occupied Europe - assassinations, checkpoints and collective punishment.

The accusation that they are racist is completely baseless. Do you know that Israel has army regiments composed of volunteer Africans and Arabs? Insude Israeli territory there are many thousands of Muslims and Africans and even Indian workers. I have been to Israel, and under no circumstances would I call it a racist society- it is far more tolerant to all ethnicities than many Muslim regimes. Certainly there are a few radical religious zealots, but they aren't racist either. The fact is- that this conflict has two distinct religions pitted against each other. This however does not mean that either is racist, for in rage and anger one might appear to hate or battle the religion or affiliation which your enemy belongs to.

There is no ethnic cleansing going on, and even if there would be it would be completely pointless. Nor is the Israeli authorities in any way comparable to Nazis. During occupations and civil strifes any government action may seem like collective punishment or ethnic cleansing. But the fact is this is common in every war, good and bad. US, Russia, China, Britain, France, Italy, Belgium, Japan, and many more- have all done/are doing similar things in their foreign affairs. To blame Israel alone is simply hypocritical.

And what would you suggest Israel do instead? Let the Palestinians have Gaza (done already with little effect) or West Bank? And what then if the Palestinians want more and continue their attacks? Be pushed out into the sea? Many years ago Arafat was offered a peace deal that included handing over full control of both Gaza and West Bank. Arafat at that time felt the Palestinians' strength in bargaining and refused, wanting more. And he got nothing. Maybe the Palestinians should investigate their own authority, because HAMAS and Fatah have cheated and fooled their people for decades, preventing them from living in peace.

Originally posted by rich23
And there are a disturbing number of people on this board prepared to excuse any excesses from poor little Israel (which the US funds in terms of billions of dollars every year).

I don't exuse Israel for everything, nor do I support its current government. However laying all blame on Israel is leaving you exactly where you started everytime. If you haven't noticed it is a very complex situation in Palestine, much like in Kosovo, and Chechnya. These strifes do not have a clear-cut good guy and bad guy. This isn't a Hollywood film. The problem is much deeper. There are individuals and factions on both sides that are to blame.

However you don't see liberals holding protests around the world saying "Free Israel from Muslim Harrassment" or "Boycott HAMAS and Hezbolah". Why focus all you anger against the Israelis, when the actual problem is getting sidestepped?

Originally posted by rich23
Can you back up this assertion with any substantiated reporting?

I probably could, since on somewhere there is always propaganda supporting some side or other. But it is rather clear for anyone that monitors the events. Palestinians are supposed to be receiving billions of dollars in aid from Muslim organizations around the world. Yet no one sees a cent. Yet Hamas and Hezbolah are getting armed to the teeth, and running well organized PR campaigns around the world. Who is getting robbed by who?

In every civil conflict, there are opportunists. Warlords who profit from the continuation of fighting. There are instances throughout history. Who these warlords are? Its pretty certain there are large numbers of them among Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbolah among others. This conflict is no exception to history.

Originally posted by rich23
Try growing up in a place where your home can be bulldozed flat at any time, when a sniper's bullet can kill you as you sit at your desk in school, where helicopters can launch rocket attacks on crowded streets... you might not understand the other side's point of view too well, but you'll be motivated to fight, I pretty much guarantee that.

A child cannot be expect to understand a conflict as complex as the one in Israel. Sure Palestinian children witness some horrible events, but so do the Israel children who witness suicide bombings. And it is to be expected for a Palestinian child to hate what is going on, and possibly to hate Israelis since one doesn't yet understand the nature of the events.

But what is not acceptable, is for the authority to exploit these as-of-yet undeveloped emotions to fuel hate and radicalism... to strap bombs on teens and send them to blow themselves up at checkpoints. To tell these kids about some imaginary heavens and evil blood sucking zionists. To sent them to death for a cause that they cannot possibly understand. That is what Palestinian militant factions are doing, and that is what helps create the unending cycle of violence.

Originally posted by rich23
As for the matter of a "neutral perspective", I'm not sure if one exists. We're human. We sympathise with one side or another for complex psychological reasons. I've seen too much state terror perpetrated by Israel to have much sympathy for them any more.

You are focused on Palestinian suffering. But Israelis have suffered no less too. 4 wars being waged against them almost back to back by coalitions of Muslim armies many times bigger. You do remember how this all started after all? How Gaza and West Bank, along with Golan hights and Sinai came to be occupied in the first place? Modern Israel was created on the battlefield, because its Muslim neighbors forced it to be. And what about the countless suicide bombing. Is that not suffering?

Neutrality, is recognizing that both sides suffered, and at times both have contributed to that suffering. Thats a start for analyzing nearly even conflict. Only after that is any solution possible.

[edit on 20-11-2006 by maloy]

Maloy,

I told you it is not possible to teach these Nazis and anti-semites any different. (*waiting for the 'arabs are semites too!' *) No matter what proof you present to them the only thing they understand is Zionists=Bad/ Terrorists=Good.

So stooped in their ignorance that they are unwilling to see the other perspective, that possibly the Israelis have a reason for the checkpoints and the incursions! But when there is hatred in the heart and ignorance in the mind, nothing can stop these people. The only thing they dont do these days is shout "seig hail" on the streets but other than that their attitudes are the same. They would rather have Israelis women and children die in a suicide bombing than have the IDF bring these terrorists to justice.

This is the comfort they have(forged through the deaths and persecution of Jews in their countries!) by sitting thousands of miles away in an ivory tower preaching sanctimonious platitudes on how Israeli citizens can die from rocket attacks day and night but the Palestinians should be untouched.

These are the kind of people this board is filled with!

Originally posted by yeah right

Originally posted by maloy
brainwashed by religious fanatics

you are brainwashed into believing that jews are good!!!
they are the ones who beat,tortured, and crucified jesus.........
they are the ones who demanded that everyone has to PAY for everything,
that is/was free (food-water.etc....)
they are the reason we have OUTRAGEOUS house payments!
the reason YOU pay 30% on your credit card
the reason that people cannot afford homes,
because of business' scarfing up all of the lands
afghanistan used to be FREE and CHEAP
find some dirt, build a house, raise some goats, and vegetables,....and live.......... FOR FREE!!!!!
but, sadly, the jews couldnt make money from them like that

CANNOT HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE????

they also turned YOU into a SLAVE,
working from 16 till near death, to make them rich.......

i repeat...........YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!!!!

Yeah Right, I believe you are out of your mind

Jews are no more good or bad than anyone else...gov'ts are good and bad...races are just people...normal people...like me, but unlike you.

There is not one Jew alive today that beat anyone from two thousand years ago.

Society demands that everyone pay for everything...especially a capitalist one, be it food, water, clothes...whatever.

My house payments are not outrageous...Shop around between mortage companies and banks...they are not ALL owned by the same people.

I'll give you that one...corporations do gobble up all resources...but that really has nothing to do with the Jews anymore than anyone else...

Afghnistan used to be free and cheap...what does that mean exactly?...and is that the life you really want?

and finally...sorry not brainwashed...yeah my govt. gets their hands on my paycheck...but whats left is mine to do with what I want...not someone else.

You need to quit listening to that KKK, Skinhead crap man...it's outa date, and was never true...your the one who is brainwashed, but you don't have to be!

Originally posted by yeah right
they are the ones who beat,tortured, and crucified jesus.........\
they are the ones who demanded that everyone has to PAY for everything,
that is/was free (food-water.etc....)
they are the reason we have OUTRAGEOUS house payments!
the reason YOU pay 30% on your credit card
the reason that people cannot afford homes,
because of business' scarfing up all of the lands
afghanistan used to be FREE and CHEAP
find some dirt, build a house, raise some goats, and vegetables,....and live.......... FOR FREE!!!!!but, sadly, the jews couldnt make money from them like that

Sie sind absolut richtig, Die Juden sind unser Unglück!

Wir müssen die Juden ausrotten!!! Deutschland uber alles!!

Sieg Hail! Sieg Hail Sieg Hail!

88!

[edit on 20-11-2006 by IAF101]

The last I looked this was PTS, not PTSH, Post Total # Here. Let's let up guys.

met a guy this year on holiday....a christian from palestine....he said he got a rifle pointed at his head at a checkpoint for throwing a cigarette on the ground and was forced to pick it up....then he moved to Greece

this should go down well with anti-smoking groups as well

Originally posted by born_to_be_wired
met a guy this year on holiday....a christian from palestine....he said he got a rifle pointed at his head at a checkpoint for throwing a cigarette on the ground and was forced to pick it up....then he moved to Greece

Make no mistake, they are and have been shooting Christians as well. Makes no matter to them as long as they are Palestinian. Its not a religious thing. Its a Palestinian thing. You just don't hear about it as often because they are a minority over there but I saw videotaped Christian funerals for teens killed by IDF. This was also coincidentally in the town of Bethlehem. They try to hush that up for fear of losing Christian support in the USA but I can assure you Christians are being killed there.

^^^^ Is it time to shave my head now ??? Where do I fight for Ein Volk ??

Havent you head Nazi Chic is back in fashion!

Originally posted by IAF101
^^^^

Is it time to shave my head now ??? Where do I fight for Ein Volk ??

Havent you head Nazi Chic is back in fashion!

AND:

Originally posted by IAF101
Maloy,

I told you it is not possible to teach these Nazis and anti-semites any different. (*waiting for the 'arabs are semites too!' *) No matter what proof you present to them the only thing they understand is Zionists=Bad/ Terrorists=Good.

So stooped in their ignorance that they are unwilling to see the other perspective, that possibly the Israelis have a reason for the checkpoints and the incursions! But when there is hatred in the heart and ignorance in the mind, nothing can stop these people. The only thing they dont do these days is shout "seig hail" on the streets but other than that their attitudes are the same. They would rather have Israelis women and children die in a suicide bombing than have the IDF bring these terrorists to justice.

This is the comfort they have(forged through the deaths and persecution of Jews in their countries!) by sitting thousands of miles away in an ivory tower preaching sanctimonious platitudes on how Israeli citizens can die from rocket attacks day and night but the Palestinians should be untouched.

These are the kind of people this board is filled with!

Are you going to contribute to the topic or continually puke THIS crap on our forums? You make NO effort to discuss the topic, just this hate #. And you're better than the other side how?

Originally posted by IAF101
^^^^

Is it time to shave my head now ??? Where do I fight for Ein Volk ??

Havent you head Nazi Chic is back in fashion!

It was Nazi's that were killing your people, yet here it is 2006 and now your country turns around and does the very same thing to someone else. It may not be on such a grand scale as the nazis did to the jews but walled in ghettos, murder, assasinations, media blackouts and control, checkpoints, house to house searches,tanks rolling through the streets, storm trooper raids. Same garbage different era and this time its the Jews doing the dirty deed. You would imagine a people that were murdered and abused would be the last people to ever do such things to others, apparently not. You can keep trying to shield yourself with shouts of antisemetism and naziism but those words are being so overused it means nothing more then "shut up we do what we want"

Originally posted by yeah right

Originally posted by maloy
brainwashed by religious fanatics

you are brainwashed into believing that jews are good!!!

they are the ones who beat,tortured, and crucified jesus.........



they are the ones who demanded that everyone has to PAY for everything,
that is/was free (food-water.etc....)

they are the reason we have OUTRAGEOUS house payments!
the reason YOU pay 30% on your credit card

the reason that people cannot afford homes,
because of business' scarfing up all of the lands

afghanistan used to be FREE and CHEAP
find some dirt, build a house, raise some goats, and vegetables,....and live.......... FOR FREE!!!!!

but, sadly, the jews couldnt make money from them like that

CANNOT HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE????

they also turned YOU into a SLAVE,
working from 16 till near death, to make them rich.......

i repeat...........YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!!!!!

I take it this comprehensive reply is a joke. If not, than the state of affairs wherever it is that you come from is really sad.

hating all Jews because you disagree with Israeli politics is pure ignorance and lack of comprehension. This is exactly what keeps this conflict going, and this will not solve any problems for anyone.

[edit on 20-11-2006 by maloy]

This complaint is from your OWN PEOPLE and you call us racist nazi's because we can speak truthfully about the things your government does. This is true racism. It reminds me of when Black people had to ride in the back of the bus.

Human rights group blasts West Bank travel restrictions as 'racist'

By Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondent and Haaretz Service

The Yesh Din organization, which works to protect human rights in the West Bank, wrote a letter of complaint to Defense Minister Amir Peretz Monday over army regulations released Saturday limiting Palestinians from traveling in Israeli vehicles in the West Bank and Jordan Valley.

The warrant, signed on Sunday, states that only Palestinians with permits can travel in vehicles bearing Israeli registration plates. The new regulations will come into effect in mid-January.

Yesh Din's chairman condemned the regulations as racist.

"We are talking about an order which reminds one of legal orders from the Dark Ages and racist regimes? This constitutes a clear illegality, even an international crime. It is an apartheid crime," the chairman, Paul Kider, and his attorney Michael Sfarad said.

Source

These acts are despicable and the people of Israel supporting these ridiculous ideas in this day and age should be ashamed.